Lets say Joe Johnson dont sign with us next season.....

[jy23]

JY since you exist in a world of revisionist history I'll answer this question again in plain english since you lack reading comprehension. The Cavs are only considered contenders simply because they have the best player in the NBA. That's not up for debate. You may think they are close but I don't remember anyone talking about a Kobe/Wade finals. I haven't heard anywhere near the amount of speculation where Wade is going in 2010 as I've heard of Lebron. I didn't see Wade lift up that MVP trophy last season either.

Again the Cavs were only considered contenders because they have the best player in the league and the media likes to hype that but the simple addition of Mo Williams to a 45 win team did not put them over the Celtics and at the time the Pistons. It was not until we were well into the season that experts considered them a cute pick but again, to be a true contender you have to be just as good or better than the competition. Beating up on who you're supposed to beat in the regular season doesn't make you the best as was evidenced by the playoff results. Now again since you didn't get it the first time, if you considered yourself a true contender why would you go ahead and make a major move like trading for Shaq? I think reality answered your question for you 3 months ago.

U don't remember anyone talking about a Wade/Kobe finals? Have u seen the Heat lately? And yes I agree u haven't heard as much about where wade is going next year and that really proves your point!!! :laughing5: Dude u need to stop watching espn for a lil bit bc they have u talking out the side of your head.......lebron is a great player no doubt but the difference between he and wade is nothing like ur trying to make it. Is lebron ur friend or something? Now according to ur post the celtics were contenders right? Ok...now u say if u consider urself a contender y would u go and make a big move........ :doh: the celtics added Sheed! Crap.......you make a point and lose it all at once. The lakers won a ring....... :doh: they added Artest......crap.....there must be no contenders in the league......i think everybody sucks according to u craw. Now I'll say it again.....swap joe for wade and we become CONTENDERS!

[EazyRoc]

He keeps avoiding the question for the sake of his argument. The Cavaliers were contenders despite lacking a premier front court player. Our frontcourt is better than the Cavs. Our roster overall is better than the Cavs roster last year, if you remove LeBron and Joe from the equation. You insert a MVP candidate, and we're a contender. He keeps trying to paint LeBron as in a league in his own, when really, LeBron, Kobe, Chris Paul, and Howard are all All World talents. LeBron may be better than the others, but it definitely isn't by much at all. The point is a Mike Bibby, Dwayne Wade, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford roster would be competing for a championship next year if it happened. Would they win it ? Who knows ? However, they would definitely be in contention. I just don't understand what league you've been watching. Wade isn't just any old scoring wing like Joe or Michael Redd. He's a future Hall of Fame player that can put a team on his back. Why do you think the Heat went from the worst team in the league to the 5th seed in the East ? Let me guess..Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal ?

[sillent]

Now Sillent you've gone ahead and made the nonsensical argument of saying trading the teams allstar team captain would be less detrimental to team chemistry than trading away Smoove why? Because he's from Atlanta? Does that matter more to teammates that don't care because they are from all over the country, the world even, themselves or to the fans from Atlanta? I'd say the latter.

U can call me a homer(Even though I was born in Florida which is the same place Amare is from) but I think Smoove will eventually be better. People laughed at me(People I personally know) when I said our new rookie draftee(Boris Diaw) would be a poor man's Lebron. I even went further as to explain what I meant by stating he has a nice all around game for his size. I trold them he could be a big guard as far as his passing and scoring abilities(Heart and Determination is always a big factor but the talent is there). He did not prove that on our team but with patience and the right system he showed just that.

Dominique got me into the game of basketball and I haven't looked back since. I always loved the Hawks but could not find another favorite player on the Hawks until Josh Smith arrived(He reminds me of Nique). Not only does he remind me of Nique but he does things Nique didn't even do on the court from a defensive standpoint. To me trading Amare for Smoove would be like trading Amare for Nique and maybe not now but in the near future we will have our regrets which is less so for the Boris Diaw JJ trade. Why not hold on to a potential superstar that we can say was home grown in every aspect. Everyone's knows Amare's capabilities(which is good if that's exactly the piece you need) but Smoove's capabilities and potential(currently) are endless. What if we have the next best thing to Lebron and we let him go because we did not let our piece completely unfold and have only seen half the product.

If you want a team that you know what you are going to get every night may you are not ready for a young talented but frustrating Hawks team and maybe you should be a Spurs fan or something if you do not have the patience right now. Me personally, will wait for the new Nique(Smoove) Jordan(Lebron, Kobe if you want the typical Jordan but I am talkin about the Nique and Jordan of the future) battles and maybe this time the outcome will be a little different.

[sillent]

OH AND JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT FOR ALL THE LBJ LOVERS AND WADE LOVERS. DONT YOU THINK ITS FUNNY HOW EVERYTIME A NBA PLAYER GETS HYPED UP TO THE ELITE STATUS LIKE WADE AND LBJ DID, THEY ALWAYS WANT TO COMPARE THEM TO KOBE AND THEN JORDAN!

WHEATHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT YOU A FOOL IF YOU THINK KOBE ISNT THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE. I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY! U HAVE NO GOOD ENOUGH REASON TO PUT ANY OTHER PLAYER OVER HIM! AN I'LL ARGUE THAT ALL-DAY.

(SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUT I FELT IT WAS NEEDED)

No offense but Kobe is just a duplicate of Jordan(which is definitely not a downplay). You can't find anything that Kobe does(as far as moves) that Jordan has not already done. Lebron and Wade who may have pattened their game from some where or another are their own player and no one has a game exactly like theirs.

[MaceCase]

U don't remember anyone talking about a Wade/Kobe finals? Have u seen the Heat lately? And yes I agree u haven't heard as much about where wade is going next year and that really proves your point!!! :laughing5: Dude u need to stop watching espn for a lil bit bc they have u talking out the side of your head.......lebron is a great player no doubt but the difference between he and wade is nothing like ur trying to make it. Is lebron ur friend or something? Now according to ur post the celtics were contenders right? Ok...now u say if u consider urself a contender y would u go and make a big move........ :doh: the celtics added Sheed! Crap.......you make a point and lose it all at once. The lakers won a ring....... :doh: they added Artest......crap.....there must be no contenders in the league......i think everybody sucks according to u craw. Now I'll say it again.....swap joe for wade and we become CONTENDERS!

You amaze me.......So the former champs were contending just fine, on their way to a title defense and then they lose their best frontcourt player to a knee injury and had to survive with the likes of Mikki Moore, Leon Powe, Brian Scalabrine and Glen Davis. So what do they do? What you're supposed to, they go ahead and sign a capable player for insurance but if healthy who do you think is going to start on that team, KG or Sheed? The Lakers just signed Artest for half his market price because he himself wanted to be there, they would have been just fine with Ariza but apparently he thought he was worth 3 million more than Artest.... The Magic got whipped by Kobe and his frontline, amazingly they added two bigs and retained another at great cost even though they already sport the best center in the league. Do you notice a trend with most of these moves here JY? I don't know what these GMs, ours included, keep doing with this stockpiling bigs nonsense when they are guards a plenty out there? They should be afraid of Wade not some bum like Dwight Howard.

I will say this again JY, the only thing you contend for in the league is a title, that is what the "contention" is over. Saying a team would be a contender but in the same sentence couldn't win a title is an oxymoron. Then what is it you are contending for? Does a Wade led team make us better than the other teams in the East yet alone the Lakers out West? It doesn't because it's not him who's going to be guarding all those newly acquired bigs that seem to give us trouble (since all of a sudden we've allllllllllllllll forgotten about what the teams original issues are) but you can continue yelling your misinterpretation of contender!!! if it makes you feel better.

[MaceCase]

He keeps avoiding the question for the sake of his argument. The Cavaliers were contenders despite lacking a premier front court player. Our frontcourt is better than the Cavs. Our roster overall is better than the Cavs roster last year, if you remove LeBron and Joe from the equation. You insert a MVP candidate, and we're a contender. He keeps trying to paint LeBron as in a league in his own, when really, LeBron, Kobe, Chris Paul, and Howard are all All World talents. LeBron may be better than the others, but it definitely isn't by much at all. The point is a Mike Bibby, Dwayne Wade, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford roster would be competing for a championship next year if it happened. Would they win it ? Who knows ? However, they would definitely be in contention. I just don't understand what league you've been watching. Wade isn't just any old scoring wing like Joe or Michael Redd. He's a future Hall of Fame player that can put a team on his back. Why do you think the Heat went from the worst team in the league to the 5th seed in the East ? Let me guess..Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal ?

That's yet another nice try at revisionist history but the Heat were 10 and 39 the year before in games Wade started with roughly the same players. So again it was Wade, all Wade, nobody but Wade. How this thread keeps getting more and more delusional.

[AHF]

To give my $.02 to this hypothetical debate on Wade, Kobe, Lebron, the Hawks, etc.:

If we somehow switched Wade and JJ, I do think the Hawks could be contenders if the chemistry turns out to the right. I don't think that is a guarantee and sure don't think a video game simulation will shed any light on that but Wade for my money is on the same tier as Kobe Bryant. Both are fantastic difference-makers who aren't so dominant that they can carry a team on their own. A healthy Hawks' team with Wade on it could win the Eastern Conference, IMO. Would they? That is up for debate, in my mind. Could they? For me, the answer is "yes." The rest of the Hawks team is good enough that a very nice team could be put together around Wade, Marvin, Josh, Horford, etc.

I do think Lebron is a small step above both Wade and Kobe and I would definitely choose him if I was going to select the Joe swap player for my team. With any of those three guys, however, I think the Hawks become strong contenders to win the Eastern Conference and among the teams with a shot at winning the finals with the 2010 roster in place.

[jy23]

To give my $.02 to this hypothetical debate on Wade, Kobe, Lebron, the Hawks, etc.:

If we somehow switched Wade and JJ, I do think the Hawks could be contenders if the chemistry turns out to the right. I don't think that is a guarantee and sure don't think a video game simulation will shed any light on that but Wade for my money is on the same tier as Kobe Bryant. Both are fantastic difference-makers who aren't so dominant that they can carry a team on their own. A healthy Hawks' team with Wade on it could win the Eastern Conference, IMO. Would they? That is up for debate, in my mind. Could they? For me, the answer is "yes." The rest of the Hawks team is good enough that a very nice team could be put together around Wade, Marvin, Josh, Horford, etc.

I do think Lebron is a small step above both Wade and Kobe and I would definitely choose him if I was going to select the Joe swap player for my team. With any of those three guys, however, I think the Hawks become strong contenders to win the Eastern Conference and among the teams with a shot at winning the finals with the 2010 roster in place.

Thank u AHF, thats just one person who doesn't agree with Craw..but Craw you're doing a good job of defending your point and I have thoroughly enjoyed it, its been fun. But anywho....again u said something but really didn't say anything....the celtics were contenders rather they got Sheed or not....thats y when they got him everyone was just in awe because this good team just got that much better. But again were they contenders before him? YES!!!! U said yourself they got him as insurance, thats just the rich getting richer, but again were they contenders without him? And u said in an earlier post that if ur a contender y would u make a big move if ur confident in your team.....and everytime i bring up a case u try and justify y they do it.....could it just be that teams make moves and even THE CONTENDERS are involved in this process? In Craws world NO! In ur NBA lbj is just from another planet than the rest of these guys huh.....he saves kittens from trees, takes tickets at the gate, serves everybody food in the stadium all while dropping 60 15 n 10 on everybody huh? :thumbsdownsmileyanim: Stop it man......If he can make a team of bums contenders WITHOUT THIS GREAT BIG U KEEP TALKING ABOUT then Wade can do it with this damn good cast of players that we have here. He may not save kittens but he could get us in the finals...thats not guaranteed but nothing is in sports....thats y u play the game

And just to entertain u North i did ur virtual thing on 2k9.....first season guess what happened.......I'll tell u, the hawks won a ring against the rockets. The heat made the playoffs and got bounced in the first round. Second year we both got bounced in the first round.....Third time something interesting happened, the hawks and heat played eac other and the second round and went 7, of course the hawks won..we lost in the conference finals....even the virtual world thinks that we could possibly be contenders! Does that mean we are a lock to win? NO! could we? YES!!!!!

[EazyRoc]

That's yet another nice try at revisionist history but the Heat were 10 and 39 the year before in games Wade started with roughly the same players. So again it was Wade, all Wade, nobody but Wade. How this thread keeps getting more and more delusional.

It's getting more and more hilarious if you ask me. The Heat were horrible the year before last because they were relying on Chris Quinn and Daquan Cook to provide quality minutes for them. They didn't have anything resembling depth, and Dwayne Wade didn't play a whole season. So! Do you think Jermaine O'Neal and Michael Beasley made the difference from them being the worst team in the league to being a playoff team ? Seriously ?

I'll ask again. If you need premier frontline players to be a contender, why were the Cavaliers considered contenders with just Big Z and Varejao (who in tandem are worse than our own frontline) ?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Since Nique was mentioned, how many times has he played on a team that Hawk fans and the national media considered to be a "title contender"?

When you look at his career, he never made it past the EC Semis. Despite his scoring and athletic exploits, the average fan and so-called NBA experts doesn't rate Nique as a top-40 player of all time. And this is partially due to his team's playoff "failures".

People will quickly tell you that Scottie Pippen and James Worthy were better players than Nique. Unfortunately for Nique, he didn't have a Jordan or a Magic as a teammate. He had Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis as teammates. Doc and K-Will were good, but they weren't perennial All-Star talents.

When superstar players have the burden to basically carry a team, that team is normally NOT a title contender, until at least that 2nd guy consistently plays at an All-Star level. That's why even if you swap a D-Wade for JJ, the Hawks are still not contenders UNLESS one of the kids can elevate their game to star level.

Even the great Michael Jordan never contended for a title, until Scottie Pippen really staarted to flourish in that point forward role, becoming an All-Star caliber player. And while they get little credit, the frontline of Pippen, Horace Grant, and the "3-headed monster at center" ( Cartwright, Wennington, and Perdue) were an efficient offensive and decent defending frontline.

Then you look at the last 3 Bulls titles, and you see that their 3rd guy was actually Dennis Rodman, who was a dominant rebounding and defending SF/PF that help elevate those Bulls teams to all-time great levels.

Magic played with Kareem and Worthy, with Byron Scott occasionally being that 3rd guy . . along with a pletora of tough, defensive minded role players.

Bird played with Dennis Johnson, McHale and Parish, with Ainge coming up huge on occasion.

Isaiah played with Dumars and a very tough collection of big men that would knock you on your azz . . with Vinnie Johnson occasionally being that 3rd star.

The year Portland got to the NBA Finals, Drexler played with Terry Porter . . and the much maligned Kevin Duckworth was pretty good at center that year.

The 90s Seattle Supersonic teams had Payton and Kemp, with Detlef Schremph as the 3rd star. I'm forgetting somebody on those 90s Sonic teams though.

The Knicks had Ewing, a nunber of guys who played the #2 role over the years ( Starks, Houston ), the ultimate PF enforcer in Charles Oakley ( and later Anthony Mason ), and a host of solid offensive and defensive players. For the Knicks though, I always believed that Ewing playing on the outside so much, prevented them from beating the Bulls and the Pacers.

Speaking of the Pacers, they had Reggie Miller, but really didn't become contenders until Rik Smits started to develop at center. Add the Davis boys ( Antoine and Dale ), Mark Jackson, and later Jalen Rose to the mix. I think Detlef played with them also.

The Houston championship teams of the 90s kind of deviated from the formula . . but only for one year. Olajuwon was a DOMINANT CENTER in 1994, surrounded by good frontline players in Otis Thorpe and a young Robert Horry, and about 4 to 6 three point shooting guards and forwards. The next year though, even they brought in future Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler to solidify that 2nd title.

The Heat teams of the 90s had Mourning and Tim Hardaway. I think I'm forgetting someone on this Heat squad though. Of course Riley constructed them in the mold of the early 90s Knicks teams, with the offensive specialists and defensive role players on that squad.

Utah languished as a 2nd tier team for years. Stockton and Malone was great. Mark Eaton was a defensive center, but hardly gave you anything offensively. It really wasn't until they added that reliable 3rd guy ( Jeff Hornacek ), that they really started contending for a title.

The 1994 Hawks team that the #1 seed, was led by Nique ( although an offensively erratic one ), a defensive and playmaking PG in Mookie, and even Kevin Willis became an All-Star caliber PF. Add defenders like Augmon and Ehlo, and you have a contending squad in the post MJ era.

Even the 1997 Hawk team that won 56 or 57 games, had Mookie, the sharpshooting Steve Smith, the Defensive POY in Mutumbo, and a very good Christian Laettner at PF.

LOL . . and I'm still describing the contending teams of the 90s. I haven't even got to the squads of the last 8 - 10 years.

I can pretty much do this all day, to show that you need those 2 All-Star caliber players + a 3rd guy + a defensive mindset, in order to be a true contender for an NBA title.

This is why one of the kids developing into a consistent star player is VITAL for us contending . . even with the great D-Wade in a Hawk uniform. Without that, Wade is simply Nique reincarnated on those late 80s - early 90s Hawk teams, that would finish 4th - 8th in an Eastern Conference in which the teams to beat were Boston, Detroit, and a rapidly improving Chicago Bull team.

For one more controversial comment, I'll say this.

I don't think Josh Smith RIGHT NOW is as good as Kevin Willis in the late 80s. Defintely not better than Willis in the 90s, where he was averaging a double-double. Josh was a better shot blocker and and more exciting dunker, and that's it.

Josh showed glimpses of what he could becme in that Cleveland series. If he consistently does that, while improving his defense and especially his rebounding, NOW you're talking about the Hawks being a title contender with a D-Wade here. But we'll see if he really means it, when he says that he'll leave the jumper alone.

Bottom line is that one of these kids has to become a star, whether we have JJ or a hypothetical Wade here, to contend for a title.

That's just the way the league works folks.

[AHF]

Cleveland 2008-09 = not a contender

Is that correct, northcyde?

I agree with a lot of what you write but unless you are counting Mo as an "All-Star" when he got technically on an All-Star team with suballstar play as a replacement (i.e., reward for team record) then Cleveland does not meet your above formula. If it does meet the definition, then that is a form over substance argument for me and Josh Smith could easily be that second All-Star on a 50 win team with a headliner like Wade, Kobe, Lebron, etc. drawing tons of positive press.

[jy23]

Since Nique was mentioned, how many times has he played on a team that Hawk fans and the national media considered to be a "title contender"?

When you look at his career, he never made it past the EC Semis. Despite his scoring and athletic exploits, the average fan and so-called NBA experts doesn't rate Nique as a top-40 player of all time. And this is partially due to his team's playoff "failures".

People will quickly tell you that Scottie Pippen and James Worthy were better players than Nique. Unfortunately for Nique, he didn't have a Jordan or a Magic as a teammate. He had Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis as teammates. Doc and K-Will were good, but they weren't perennial All-Star talents.

When superstar players have the burden to basically carry a team, that team is normally NOT a title contender, until at least that 2nd guy consistently plays at an All-Star level. That's why even if you swap a D-Wade for JJ, the Hawks are still not contenders UNLESS one of the kids can elevate their game to star level.

Even the great Michael Jordan never contended for a title, until Scottie Pippen really staarted to flourish in that point forward role, becoming an All-Star caliber player. And while they get little credit, the frontline of Pippen, Horace Grant, and the "3-headed monster at center" ( Cartwright, Wennington, and Perdue) were an efficient offensive and decent defending frontline.

Then you look at the last 3 Bulls titles, and you see that their 3rd guy was actually Dennis Rodman, who was a dominant rebounding and defending SF/PF that help elevate those Bulls teams to all-time great levels.

Magic played with Kareem and Worthy, with Byron Scott occasionally being that 3rd guy . . along with a pletora of tough, defensive minded role players.

Bird played with Dennis Johnson, McHale and Parish, with Ainge coming up huge on occasion.

Isaiah played with Dumars and a very tough collection of big men that would knock you on your azz . . with Vinnie Johnson occasionally being that 3rd star.

The year Portland got to the NBA Finals, Drexler played with Terry Porter . . and the much maligned Kevin Duckworth was pretty good at center that year.

The 90s Seattle Supersonic teams had Payton and Kemp, with Detlef Schremph as the 3rd star. I'm forgetting somebody on those 90s Sonic teams though.

The Knicks had Ewing, a nunber of guys who played the #2 role over the years ( Starks, Houston ), the ultimate PF enforcer in Charles Oakley ( and later Anthony Mason ), and a host of solid offensive and defensive players. For the Knicks though, I always believed that Ewing playing on the outside so much, prevented them from beating the Bulls and the Pacers.

Speaking of the Pacers, they had Reggie Miller, but really didn't become contenders until Rik Smits started to develop at center. Add the Davis boys ( Antoine and Dale ), Mark Jackson, and later Jalen Rose to the mix. I think Detlef played with them also.

The Houston championship teams of the 90s kind of deviated from the formula . . but only for one year. Olajuwon was a DOMINANT CENTER in 1994, surrounded by good frontline players in Otis Thorpe and a young Robert Horry, and about 4 to 6 three point shooting guards and forwards. The next year though, even they brought in future Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler to solidify that 2nd title.

The Heat teams of the 90s had Mourning and Tim Hardaway. I think I'm forgetting someone on this Heat squad though. Of course Riley constructed them in the mold of the early 90s Knicks teams, with the offensive specialists and defensive role players on that squad.

Utah languished as a 2nd tier team for years. Stockton and Malone was great. Mark Eaton was a defensive center, but hardly gave you anything offensively. It really wasn't until they added that reliable 3rd guy ( Jeff Hornacek ), that they really started contending for a title.

The 1994 Hawks team that the #1 seed, was led by Nique ( although an offensively erratic one ), a defensive and playmaking PG in Mookie, and even Kevin Willis became an All-Star caliber PF. Add defenders like Augmon and Ehlo, and you have a contending squad in the post MJ era.

Even the 1997 Hawk team that won 56 or 57 games, had Mookie, the sharpshooting Steve Smith, the Defensive POY in Mutumbo, and a very good Christian Laettner at PF.

LOL . . and I'm still describing the contending teams of the 90s. I haven't even got to the squads of the last 8 - 10 years.

I can pretty much do this all day, to show that you need those 2 All-Star caliber players + a 3rd guy + a defensive mindset, in order to be a true contender for an NBA title.

This is why one of the kids developing into a consistent star player is VITAL for us contending . . even with the great D-Wade in a Hawk uniform. Without that, Wade is simply Nique reincarnated on those late 80s - early 90s Hawk teams, that would finish 4th - 8th in an Eastern Conference in which the teams to beat were Boston, Detroit, and a rapidly improving Chicago Bull team.

For one more controversial comment, I'll say this.

I don't think Josh Smith RIGHT NOW is as good as Kevin Willis in the late 80s. Defintely not better than Willis in the 90s, where he was averaging a double-double. Josh was a better shot blocker and and more exciting dunker, and that's it.

Josh showed glimpses of what he could becme in that Cleveland series. If he consistently does that, while improving his defense and especially his rebounding, NOW you're talking about the Hawks being a title contender with a D-Wade here. But we'll see if he really means it, when he says that he'll leave the jumper alone.

Bottom line is that one of these kids has to become a star, whether we have JJ or a hypothetical Wade here, to contend for a title.

That's just the way the league works folks.

North I thought u said the only way to settle this was in the virtual world? I did that.....guess it didn't give u the results u wanted. You make great points about these teams, but like i said in an earlier post our league has changed a bit from those 80s and early 90s teams. Lets talk about the teams of the last 8-10 years shall we. In 2004 the detroit pistons won a ring right? Against the most dominate big to ever play the game, one of the best 2 guards ever and a lineup that had 2 other hall of famers in it. According to u and craw that should never happen because that completely goes against your formula. Your 2 all star players (u got your guard and ur big man) and 2 HALL OF FAMERS lost. What the heck is going on in the world when things like this happen? Damn these players for going out there and actually playing the game like they're paid to do. Wait didn't Cleveland go to the finals with one good player and a bunch of garbage.....i think Craw was the one who said that they're second best player was Hughes who had 14 per. Now that piston team had nothing to do with your formula, nobody on that team had over 17ppg and only one player had double digit rebounds.....superstar? it was supposed to be 2 of em right? Gosh, i guess the real world just doesn't work like a math equation. All i need is one example to prove my point......it can happen! Or did that lil bit of history not happen in u and craws world?

[Buzzard]

To give my $.02 to this hypothetical debate on Wade, Kobe, Lebron, the Hawks, etc.:

If we somehow switched Wade and JJ, I do think the Hawks could be contenders if the chemistry turns out to the right. I don't think that is a guarantee and sure don't think a video game simulation will shed any light on that but Wade for my money is on the same tier as Kobe Bryant. Both are fantastic difference-makers who aren't so dominant that they can carry a team on their own. A healthy Hawks' team with Wade on it could win the Eastern Conference, IMO. Would they? That is up for debate, in my mind. Could they? For me, the answer is "yes." The rest of the Hawks team is good enough that a very nice team could be put together around Wade, Marvin, Josh, Horford, etc.

I do think Lebron is a small step above both Wade and Kobe and I would definitely choose him if I was going to select the Joe swap player for my team. With any of those three guys, however, I think the Hawks become strong contenders to win the Eastern Conference and among the teams with a shot at winning the finals with the 2010 roster in place.

Agree with everything here except Lebron over Kobe. To me they are equals and my choice would come down to would my team be better served filling the SF slot or the SG slot. I do find it interesting that two of the best coaches over the last 30 years both chose to trade Shaq while keeping both Kobe and Wade respectively....

Edited September 28, 2009 by Buzzard

[AHF]

Agree with everything here except Lebron over Kobe. To me they are equals and my choice would come down to would my team be better served filling the SF slot or the SG slot. I do find it interesting that two of the best coaches over the last 30 years both chose to trade Shaq while keeping both Kobe and Wade respectively....

That is a lot easier decision in Miami than in LA, IMO, due to Shaq's age, health and impact at the time of the respective trades.

I think Kobe/Lebron is something that reasonable minds can differ about for sure. For me it may be as simple as rather having the guy who will take it to the hole in the playoffs over the guy who will hit the tough jumper. In my mind, that is why Lebron shot .510 in the playoffs last year while Kobe shot .457. Both are absolute studs, though.

[MaceCase]

North I thought u said the only way to settle this was in the virtual world? I did that.....guess it didn't give u the results u wanted. You make great points about these teams, but like i said in an earlier post our league has changed a bit from those 80s and early 90s teams. Lets talk about the teams of the last 8-10 years shall we. In 2004 the detroit pistons won a ring right? Against the most dominate big to ever play the game, one of the best 2 guards ever and a lineup that had 2 other hall of famers in it. According to u and craw that should never happen because that completely goes against your formula. Your 2 all star players (u got your guard and ur big man) and 2 HALL OF FAMERS lost. What the heck is going on in the world when things like this happen? Damn these players for going out there and actually playing the game like they're paid to do. Wait didn't Cleveland go to the finals with one good player and a bunch of garbage.....i think Craw was the one who said that they're second best player was Hughes who had 14 per. Now that piston team had nothing to do with your formula, nobody on that team had over 17ppg and only one player had double digit rebounds.....superstar? it was supposed to be 2 of em right? Gosh, i guess the real world just doesn't work like a math equation. All i need is one example to prove my point......it can happen! Or did that lil bit of history not happen in u and craws world?

If a team wants to win a title in this league, this is usually the formula:

- at least 2 All-Star caliber players ( preferably a guard + a PF or C . . with one of those guys being at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA player )

- a 3rd player who can occasionally play at a star level

- overall, a top 10 defensive team ( preferably a top 5 one )

If you usually don't have ALL of those components on your team, you're usually not winning a title, or in contention for one.

2003-2004 Detroit Pistons

-Ben Wallace, Center: NBA All Defensive 1st Team, All NBA 2nd Team, Allstar

-Rasheed Wallace 4 time Allstar

-Chauncey Billups 4 time Allstar

-Rip Hamilton 3 time Allstar

-2nd in defensive rating.

There's that reading comprehension thing again JY.

at least 2 All-Star caliber players ( preferably a guard + a PF or C . . with one of those guys being at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA player )

The Pistons rolled out 4 Allstar caliber players that year along with a 5th in Tayshaun and had the second best defense in the entire league. Not making excuses but even though they matched up well it still helped the Pistons that the Lakers best player was angling for a contract extension and their second best player was flying in and out of LA for a rape trial :whistling:

[jy23]

2003-2004 Detroit Pistons

-Ben Wallace, Center: NBA All Defensive 1st Team, All NBA 2nd Team, Allstar

-Rasheed Wallace 4 time Allstar

-Chauncey Billups 4 time Allstar

-Rip Hamilton 3 time Allstar

-2nd in defensive rating.

There's that reading comprehension thing again JY.

The Pistons rolled out 4 Allstar caliber players that year along with a 5th in Tayshaun and had the second best defense in the entire league. Not making excuses but even though they matched up well it still helped the Pistons that the Lakers best player was angling for a contract extension and their second best player was flying in and out of LA for a rape trial :whistling:

Can someone other than me tell Craw that these all stars he's talking about didn't happen until after that ring.....stop trying to make points out of nothing....notice i said the 2004 pistons not the 2004-2008 pistons. Craw i can't believe u in this thread, i really respected u b4 this one but ur getting ridiculous now. Admit that that pistons team didn't fit that formula and neither did the cavs. Stop it, JUST STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!

[jy23]

Billups allstar games-06,07,08,09

Rip allstar games-06,07,08

Sheed-00,01,06, can't remember the other year but i know it wasn't 04

Only allstar from that team was ben wallace.....that was there only allstar......ONE allstar.....he was NOT defensive player of the year that year......u r doing some real impersonating on this thread! its laughable what ur doing here. Now again thats ONE allstar, and that one allstar doesn't come close to challenging the one allstar that we would have. Again nobody on that team averaged over 17 and one player averaged double digit rebounds, where is your formula? Don't tell me about what they did have from the formula what about what they didn't have.....according to u these things are ALL needed to contend, y did they do it without it. AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE CAVS? Did we just 4get about them again?

[MaceCase]

Can someone other than me tell Craw that these all stars he's talking about didn't happen until after that ring.....stop trying to make points out of nothing....notice i said the 2004 pistons not the 2004-2008 pistons. Craw i can't believe u in this thread, i really respected u b4 this one but ur getting ridiculous now. Admit that that pistons team didn't fit that formula and neither did the cavs. Stop it, JUST STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!

Okay JY since that reading comprehension thing is getting in the way I'll stop. Having players of either a guard or big quality be of allstar caliber, not selection, doesn't fit the equation neither does the all NBA selection in said year. No need to even explain advanced metrics such as pace so why bother. The advanced mind sees no 20 point scorer so obviously that team doesn't count riiight. This thread is entertaining beacause after how many years it seems we've been arguing the wrong issues with the team. The real issue apparently has always been at SG not the frontcourt. But aye cheers to you.

[MaceCase]

Billups allstar games-06,07,08,09

Rip allstar games-06,07,08

Sheed-00,01,06, can't remember the other year but i know it wasn't 04

Only allstar from that team was ben wallace.....that was there only allstar......ONE allstar.....he was NOT defensive player of the year that year......u r doing some real impersonating on this thread! its laughable what ur doing here. Now again thats ONE allstar, and that one allstar doesn't come close to challenging the one allstar that we would have. Again nobody on that team averaged over 17 and one player averaged double digit rebounds, where is your formula? Don't tell me about what they did have from the formula what about what they didn't have.....according to u these things are ALL needed to contend, y did they do it without it. AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE CAVS? Did we just 4get about them again?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html

Could you read to me what year(s) Ben Wallace was not only an All NBA player but also an All NBA Defensive player. You know they do award those things every year in addition to MIP, MVP, 6th Man, DPY, ROY, EOY, COY. If anything the DPY was won the year before or so, I guess he fell off the map completely in 04 in his defense before bouncing back in 05. :rolleyes:

[Buzzard]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html

Could you read to me what year(s) Ben Wallace was not only an All NBA player but also an All NBA Defensive player. You know they do award those things every year in addition to MIP, MVP, 6th Man, DPY, ROY, EOY, COY. If anything the DPY was won the year before or so, I guess he fell off the map completely in 04 in his defense before bouncing back in 05. :rolleyes:

Yes Detroit had all-stars but they did not have anyone who was all world like the last few champions had. Spurs, Bulls, Lakers, Celtics come quickly to mind and this is what sets the Pistons apart and gives hope to teams and GMs on a small budget/market share.

The Pistons won without a Robinson, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Duncan, Garnett, Kareem, Bird, and yes soon Lebron. In other words they won a championship without a top 50 or 100 NBA player of all time....

Edited September 29, 2009 by Buzzard