Marvin Williams vs. Tayshun Prince.

[Diesel]

before we start, I know that homerism will take over...

It's a relevant conversation because I believe that Detroit will be one of our rivals this season. With Gordon and Villaneuva, I think they reloaded. So the Marvin vs. Prince matchup will be interesting... On with Homer.....

However, if anybody wants the honest comparison of the two:

Williams: 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45.8% from the field, 35.5% from 3 in 34 minutes.

Prince: 14.2 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45% from the field, 39.7% from 3. in 37 minutes.

Campster said No contest...

I disagree.

[Yubs]

[thecampster]

before we start, I know that homerism will take over...

It's a relevant conversation because I believe that Detroit will be one of our rivals this season. With Gordon and Villaneuva, I think they reloaded. So the Marvin vs. Prince matchup will be interesting... On with Homer.....

However, if anybody wants the honest comparison of the two:

Williams: 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45.8% from the field, 35.5% from 3 in 34 minutes.

Prince: 14.2 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45% from the field, 39.7% from 3. in 37 minutes.

Campster said No contest...

I disagree.

4th option role....I stand by my statement

[thecampster]

before we start, I know that homerism will take over...

It's a relevant conversation because I believe that Detroit will be one of our rivals this season. With Gordon and Villaneuva, I think they reloaded. So the Marvin vs. Prince matchup will be interesting... On with Homer.....

However, if anybody wants the honest comparison of the two:

Williams: 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45.8% from the field, 35.5% from 3 in 34 minutes.

Prince: 14.2 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 45% from the field, 39.7% from 3. in 37 minutes.

Campster said No contest...

I disagree.

Tayshaun Prince is in his NBA prime at 29. At 215 lbs, he can not guard the 4 but can guard the 2. These are his career stats

33 minutes - 12.7 PPG on 46.1 FG%., 4.7 rpg, 2.6 apg, .6 spg, .6 bpg

Marvin Williams is barely 23 and hasn't entered his prime yet. Marvin can guard the 2,3,4. These are his career stats.

31.5 minutes - 12.5 ppg on 45 FG%., 5.5 rpg, 1.4 a, .8 spg, .4 bpg

When you consider Marvin is on the upswing and Prince has peaked, it is no contest. When you consider that Prince is being asked to do more as the 3rd option and can not put up the numbers that go with that task, you have to ask yourself why. The reason, he can not get his own shot. He's a cutting, finisher that can not play opposing 3's straight up offensively.

Marvin is a better defender, can get his own shot more efficiently (Prince feeds off of others and the system).

In 1.5 less minutes per game over their careers the ppg is virtually the same, but when you consider Marvin is a 4th option it's debateable. Marvin gets nearly a rebound a game more and .2 more steals which shows his greater team contribution at the defensive end.

[Diesel]

Tayshaun Prince is in his NBA prime at 29. At 215 lbs, he can not guard the 4 but can guard the 2. These are his career stats

33 minutes - 12.7 PPG on 46.1 FG%., 4.7 rpg, 2.6 apg, .6 spg, .6 bpg

Marvin Williams is barely 23 and hasn't entered his prime yet. Marvin can guard the 2,3,4. These are his career stats.

31.5 minutes - 12.5 ppg on 45 FG%., 5.5 rpg, 1.4 a, .8 spg, .4 bpg

When you consider Marvin is on the upswing and Prince has peaked, it is no contest. When you consider that Prince is being asked to do more as the 3rd option and can not put up the numbers that go with that task, you have to ask yourself why. The reason, he can not get his own shot. He's a cutting, finisher that can not play opposing 3's straight up offensively.

Marvin is a better defender, can get his own shot more efficiently (Prince feeds off of others and the system).

In 1.5 less minutes per game over their careers the ppg is virtually the same, but when you consider Marvin is a 4th option it's debateable. Marvin gets nearly a rebound a game more and .2 more steals which shows his greater team contribution at the defensive end.

Prince = 3rd option???

With Gordon, Rip, and Stuckey in Detroit. Now Villanueva?

You saying that Marvin is a better defender makes me wonder, do you watch Prince? From 2004-2008, Prince has been 2nd team all defensive... He has shared that honor with guys such as KG, Howard, Camby, and Kidd. IN fact, he has been on the all defensive team more times than Howard, James, Battier, and is tied with Camby for appearances... Marvin nor Smoove has sniffed being on the All defensive team.

[MaceCase]

Well my curiosity makes me want to join in on this thread just to clarify some points. Are we arguing Prince's career versus Marvin's or their current output and that subject you hate oh so much their potential for the future? Because my understanding is that Camp is arguing that Marvin at the age of 23 is equal to Prince at the age of 29 and could possibly surpass his production by 29 and for far cheaper.

Looking throughout their careers obviously Prince has the advantage as he was an anchor on one of the most dominant defensive teams in NBA history throughout the mid 2000's but outside of that their overall stats are quite comparable.

When you take into account recent stats you notice that Marvin at the age of 23 was able to post a career high PER of 16 which almost matches Prince's career high of 16.3, a mark he incidentally posted at the age of 24.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=princta01&y1=2009&p2=willima02&y2=2009

Comparing their most recent season side by side shows that Marvin indeed is the superior player in nearly every statistical category outside of assists and 3 point%. One should also note that Prince did operate as the 3rd and often 2nd option on that Detroit team as evidenced by his season totals and per game averages here http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2009.html

On the topic of whether or not their defense is equal, outside of usual measures such as rebounds, blocks, steals where Marvin bests Prince, you'll notice he posted a better defensive rating. When you check their on/off defensive stats

Prince

http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET8.HTM#onoff

Marvin

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM#onoff

I find it curious that both players' teams were actually better off defensively with them off the court but while on Prince allowed 4.5 more points while Marvin only allowed 2.5 more points.

All of this evidence does lead me to agreeing that a 23 year old Marvin Williams is better than an in his prime, 29 year old Tayshaun Prince, and considering that Marvin will be making 7.5 mill this upcoming season while Prince makes 10.3mill on a team where his role will undoubtedly decrease leads me to rule even more in favor of ole #24.

Edited October 16, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[exodus]

Prince got to the foul line only 2.9 times per game compared to 4.5 times for Marvin. I thought i would point that out since i know Diesel would never mention it.

[AHF]

I find it curious that both players' teams were actually better off defensively with them off the court but while on Prince allowed 4.5 more points while Marvin only allowed 2.5 more points.

Probably because Prince and Marvin guard potent scoring swingmen and when those guys are off the floor is the most likely time when Prince/Marvin also rest. When the other team's potent scoring swingman is off the floor, that is probably the best time for a run by Atl/Det because losing Prince/Marvin doesn't cripple either offense the way losing the player they guard frequently does for the other team. The +/- stats don't tell much for guys with defensive assignments like this, IMO. It is apples and oranges when you compare the other team's performance with them on and off the court.

As an aside, I still think Prince is the superior defender at this point in their careers and definitely a much better passer. Marvin is a better scorer and clearly has the potential on his side along with a cheaper contract. I wouldn't trade Marvin for Prince at this point, but I think we improve slightly for this season if we did.

[macdaddy]

I think Prince is being undervalued. The guy just does what it takes to win. When you talk about Detroit's recent great years you talk about Chauncey, Prince, Sheed, and Rip. When you talk about the Hawks rise the last year and a half you talk about Joe, Smoove, Horford, Bibby. Marvin is the McDyess of the Hawks. Now this may be because he's underappreciated by fans but its the truth.

I expect big things from Marvin this year. I think he'll continue steady improvement and he'll be a great player in this league for years. Whether he becomes a big time scorer, a go to guy, a game changer is yet to be seen. I've been expecting that for a couple years and it hasn't happened. But he's been very good, steady, tough, dependable. I'm not trying to rip Marvin. I love having him on the team. I wouldn't trade him for Prince but he hasn't established himself in the way Prince has. But has many have said he has time.

[DrReality]

Prince is a better defender and I think they have made better use of his skills. He plays a role that is valuable to his team but I don't think that MW has been used in that same way. I think Marvin's skills have been under-utilized and I think he still has upside and I hope we see it.

[Diesel]

Prince is a better defender and I think they have made better use of his skills. He plays a role that is valuable to his team but I don't think that MW has been used in that same way. I think Marvin's skills have been under-utilized and I think he still has upside and I hope we see it.

I think that wishful. Marvin just doesn't do any one thing so good that we have to allow him to do that. For instance, he's not really a consistent scorer. He's not the best defender. He's not a great rebounding Sf. He can do those things, but not as a specialty. It was known that Prince is a Bowen like defender who doesn't always show up in the stats, but he is a lockdown defender on his man. Hence, he has four all defensive team appearances. He is also a good passer and a decent shooter from outside (he hoovers close to 40% which is where good 3 pt shooters starts). I agree with you when you say that Detroit (through 3 coaches) knows how to use him. However, Marvin hasn't shown anything to make you say.. Hey, he's our ----. He's not really a lockdown defender, he's just a guy who stays in front of his man and doesn't take chances. He's not a consistent scorer... He's a guy who I say benefits from playing on a team with good scorers. The 4th option for a player who can shoot is a great place. I was watching highlights of Joe play in the last game. If Marvin had a stop and pop, he'd be dangerous. If Marvin took chances on offense, he'd be dangerous.

[Buzzard]

I think that wishful. Marvin just doesn't do any one thing so good that we have to allow him to do that. For instance, he's not really a consistent scorer. He's not the best defender. He's not a great rebounding Sf. He can do those things, but not as a specialty. It was known that Prince is a Bowen like defender who doesn't always show up in the stats, but he is a lockdown defender on his man. Hence, he has four all defensive team appearances. He is also a good passer and a decent shooter from outside (he hoovers close to 40% which is where good 3 pt shooters starts). I agree with you when you say that Detroit (through 3 coaches) knows how to use him. However, Marvin hasn't shown anything to make you say.. Hey, he's our ----. He's not really a lockdown defender, he's just a guy who stays in front of his man and doesn't take chances. He's not a consistent scorer... He's a guy who I say benefits from playing on a team with good scorers. The 4th option for a player who can shoot is a great place. I was watching highlights of Joe play in the last game. If Marvin had a stop and pop, he'd be dangerous. If Marvin took chances on offense, he'd be dangerous.

There you go with the "opinion statistical" factor. Just stick with their career averages and career best averages and Marv wins hands down; even though he is 5 years younger and makes 2 to 2.5 mill less. Not to mention these facts: Prince has been the 3rd option most of his career, he had a great PG to play with most of his career, he had a HOF coach for three plus years.

This is a joke right? Its got to be; I think I will ignore this one now.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Buzzard

[bonethugz]

why are we really comparing marvin and prince? although they play the same position and have about the same average per game doesn't make them similar players. 14 points 6 rebounds right? how do rik smits comparing to prince than? rik smiths has a 14 points 6 boards per game

[exodus]

PER

Marvin 16.04

Prince 15.09

TS%

Marvin 56.9%

Prince 51.6%

This from Hollinger.

"2008-09 season: Williams delivered the transition the Hawks had awaited, switching from a long 2-point shooter to a 3-point shooter. He had ranked among the league's most prolific takers of long 2s in 2007-08, but then dipped precipitously in the span of one season. Williams shifted from taking 436 long 2s in 2007-08 to just 115 last season, which translates into nearly three-quarters of his long 2s vanishing overnight.

Instead, he pursued higher-value shots, both farther and closer. He tried nearly three 3-pointers a game last season and made a respectable 35.5 percent, while taking more than half his 2-point shots in the immediate basket area. Williams maintained his high free-throw rate, ranking seventh among small forwards in free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt, and shot a solid 80.6 percent at the stripe. The net result was a jump to 56.9 in true shooting percentage.

Williams also did yeoman's work on the boards, ranking ninth among small forwards in rebound rate, and established himself as the team's defensive stopper on the perimeter. Unfortunately, it ended with a fizzle as back and wrist problems cost him 21 games and rendered him largely useless in the playoffs. "

[jerrywest]

PER

Marvin 16.04

Prince 15.09

TS%

Marvin 56.9%

Prince 51.6%

This from Hollinger.

"2008-09 season: Williams delivered the transition the Hawks had awaited, switching from a long 2-point shooter to a 3-point shooter. He had ranked among the league's most prolific takers of long 2s in 2007-08, but then dipped precipitously in the span of one season. Williams shifted from taking 436 long 2s in 2007-08 to just 115 last season, which translates into nearly three-quarters of his long 2s vanishing overnight.

Instead, he pursued higher-value shots, both farther and closer. He tried nearly three 3-pointers a game last season and made a respectable 35.5 percent, while taking more than half his 2-point shots in the immediate basket area. Williams maintained his high free-throw rate, ranking seventh among small forwards in free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt, and shot a solid 80.6 percent at the stripe. The net result was a jump to 56.9 in true shooting percentage.

Williams also did yeoman's work on the boards, ranking ninth among small forwards in rebound rate, and established himself as the team's defensive stopper on the perimeter. Unfortunately, it ended with a fizzle as back and wrist problems cost him 21 games and rendered him largely useless in the playoffs. "

Who cares? Facts and figures don't matter in Diesel's mind.

In our switching defense, Marvin can defend against >95% NBA players. Prince can guard <60% NBA players. He has no chance against power forwards and centers.

[Diesel]

Who cares? Facts and figures don't matter in Diesel's mind.

In our switching defense, Marvin can defend against >95% NBA players. Prince can guard <60% NBA players. He has no chance against power forwards and centers.

Speaking of Facts and Figures...

How many times have Marvin been voted to the all defensive first or second team?

Any?

Prince has been voted there 4 times with his 60%...

I wonder why?

Oh, here's why....

The NBA All-Defensive Team is an annual National Basketball Association (NBA) honor given since the 1968–69 NBA season to the best defensive players during the regular season. Voting is conducted by the NBA head coaches; the coaches are not allowed to vote for players on their own team.

So there you have it. Who would know better what player disrupted his team's offensive plans... a coach or a stat?

Thanks for playing... You've been swell...

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Wait... There's more.

Last year, Prince didn't make the first or second team.. So I thought it would be interesting to see how 60% faired...

Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Tayshaun Prince, Detroit, 15 (3); Raja Bell, Charlotte, 8 (2); Joel Przybilla, Portland, 7 (1); Chauncey Billups, Denver, 5; Ronnie Brewer, Utah, 5 (1); Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 5; Yao Ming, Houston, 5; Emeka Okafor, Charlotte, 5 (1); Kendrick Perkins, Boston, 4 (1); Samuel Dalembert, Philadelphia, 3; Derek Fisher, L.A. Lakers, 3 (1); Udonis Haslem, Miami, 3; Jason Kidd, Dallas, 3 (1); Anderson Varejao, Cleveland, 3; Deron Williams, Utah, 3; Trevor Ariza, L.A. Lakers, 2; Kirk Hinrich, Chicago, 2; Joe Johnson, Atlanta, 2 (1); Andrei Kirilenko, Utah, 2 (1); David Lee, New York, 2 (1); James Posey, New Orleans, 2; J.R. Smith, Denver, 2 (1); Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 2; Nenê, Denver, 1; Chris Andersen, Denver, 1; Pau Gasol, L.A. Lakers, 1; Antonio McDyess, Detroit, 1; Andre Miller, Philadelphia, 1; Travis Outlaw, Portland, 1; Brandon Roy, Portland, 1; Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 1.

Now, I keep hearing how you're trying to suggest that I don't pay attention to facts and figures...

OK.. Let's look at the facts... Prince got 15 votes and 3 first place votes to be on the all defensive team JUST last year.

Marvin... Didn't get 1 vote..

The voters were... NBA head coaches.

Half of the coaches in the league felt that Tayshun should be on that team and NONE felt that Marvin should...

Good day sir... YOU LOSE!!!

Edited October 17, 2009 by Diesel

[jerrywest]

OK.. Let's look at the facts... Prince got 15 votes and 3 first place votes to be on the all defensive team JUST last year.

Good day sir... YOU LOSE!!!

Reading comprehension.

John Stockton was named to all defensive second team 5 times. He was the league leader in steals for many years. He could guard about 20% of the NBA players. Got it?

Nowhere did I say that Marvin is recognized as a better defensive player in the small forward position.

I said:

"In our switching defense, Marvin can defend against >95% NBA players. Prince can guard <60% NBA players. He has no chance against power forwards and centers."

You only see what you want to see.http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/ill.gif

[RedDawg#8]

Prince has been in the league alot longer on one of the best defensive teams of our recent history that by the way happened to win a championship. Anybody with a ring usually gets more notoriety for doing the same things as a player without one. Case in point, the superlatives on NBA.com for different categories voted on by coaches, there wasnt a single Hawk to make the top vote getters, NOT ONE, but i can think of several categories where one of our players were worth mentioning.

As our team continues to get better and better, you can expect our players to recieve such honors that they currently dont get recognized for.

[Diesel]

Prince has been in the league alot longer on one of the best defensive teams of our recent history that by the way happened to win a championship. Anybody with a ring usually gets more notoriety for doing the same things as a player without one. Case in point, the superlatives on NBA.com for different categories voted on by coaches, there wasnt a single Hawk to make the top vote getters, NOT ONE, but i can think of several categories where one of our players were worth mentioning.

As our team continues to get better and better, you can expect our players to recieve such honors that they currently dont get recognized for.

These excuses are sad...

Let me ask:

Ronnie Brewer, Raja Bell, Kirk Hinrich, Andre Iguodala, AK-47, Nene, and JR Smith... are all guys that haven't been on championship teams but they were mentioned. On top of that, Shane Battier actually made the team. Again... NO championship. The bottom line is that NBA head coaches don't see Marvin Williams defense as being that special.

[jerrywest]

The bottom line is that NBA head coaches don't see Marvin Williams defense as being that special.

Since you chose not to answer the point I made, I am assuming there is some growth in your understanding.

Since your above statement is a different claim, although it can be easily debunked, I chose to stay out of the debate.

Again, when you pick and choose your data, you can create any conclusion.