Are we Elite and If not can we be?

[sillent]

Elite!! I would say yes when you have an atheletic explosive team that can beat you from so many different angles offensively and defensively. I had an earlier topic where I breifly broke down every team and could not find a rational reason why there is any body we could not compete with. We may have a lapse here and there depending on how much we come out playing to our potential every night but all and all their is no team we can't beat.

The Lakers had a dynasty end against coach Larry Brown and his defensive coach Mike Woodson, who we got the year after. Bibby always saves a little something something for the Lakers. Although Smith and Horford are undersized they fair pretty well against them. If you look at some of our recent games against the Lakers we fair pretty well against them despite their size advantage(Our athleticism and good shooting helps). Artest is a big X factor which could be good or bad depending on which team you are on and maybe which night. I say we start with throwing Crawford at him and just make him chase the hot hand (Marvin, Joe, Moe and others )all night. Lakers are going to be pretty tough and their at their prime old So they'll still be able to hang pretty well with us but I would not count Woodson "The Evil Genious" out.

The Celtics can go with a line up of Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo. Even though they have a fab five(Our five are pretty good as well) four of the five are old(basketball years). It's hard to believe that they want be missing a step or two with their production and playing at a high pace/intensity without injuries occuring. We on the other hand can defend them pretty well and should be able to run them out the gym(or at least get them a little winded). As they fall we should be able to rise.

The Cavs with Lebron and Shaq are going to be dominant. Scouts can say all they want but Lebron is the type of player knows how to play with almost anyone. Shaq knows he's aging(which will play a factor) so he also will be more willing to do what it takes. Will his body and Lebron's hold up for the 82 game season is the question? Without Lebron the Cavs maybe able to still win some games but will not be considered elite. Without Shaq the Cavs can still be elite of course but may still be dominated by bigs and attacked by angles from taller shooters. Crawford, playing our 6'5 pg at times with Joe being our 6'7 shooting guard is going to be a hard cover for Mo Williams and Delonte West. If they switched in defense it will be hard for Anthony Parker and Jamerio Moon to stick with Joe and Jamal on offense. This and our relentlessness will be our X factors along with the improvement of our youth 23 and younger and the cohesion of our vets(Johnson,Bibby,Crawford).

The Magic are deep dominate inside and out and can defend. Or is their defensive scheme last year going to be affected by having a more traditional lineup. The length of a powerful athletic 6'11 player is great but to have two 6'10 guys with him that are long and can stretch the floor is a big commodity. They can still stretch the floor and may have gotten even tougher on the inside but may not be as mobile to get to the outside man. This could change the dynamic of their defense(which alot of people sleep on) which could also change the outcome of their success.

The Spurs are monsters but are struggling to stay healthy and their big three and company are getting up in age as well. They are a smart team so they know how to compensate for their age but it's hard to compensate for injuries. It's hard to see them being at full strength for the whole season and when it really counts which will affect their chances.

Heat/Sixers maybe Bulls not the Raptors/Washington/Pistons are the teams that may be of concerned. Until Raptors and Washington can show some toughness and defense they will not be Elite and since that's what we're gunning for they should not be our competition. Pistons look to be turning from the pistons to a slower paced suns(all offense). Can the Pistons handle an identity change. The Bulls are a tough scrappy athletic team like us but we may have more/better guns in our arsenal. Has everyone forgotten about Brand? Unless he is injury prone he will still be a forced to be reckoned with. With back up in the front court two explosive wings and a guard that may play better as a off guard any way the 76ers are ones you shouldn't sleep on. Our chemistry and tactics is what should help us overcome this team(We definitetly have to come out and play though). The Heat may surprise some people when they come back better. It's a motivational year for basically the whole team who have all been together for a year now and have more of a sense of what it takes. Wade still has doubters which is all the motivation he needs. Beasley has his career on the line. JOneal understands that his time is limited in more ways than one. Spoeltra did pretty good as a rookie coach(easy when you have Wade) and will look to improve. Quentin Richardson will add another shooter/hungry motivated player to prove something to his doubters(which may be many). Still don't think they have quite enough but don't be surprised if the 4th and 5th positions don't change.

ThePacers and Bobcats may challenge for 8th seed but that's about it(In my opinion).

[Diesel]

To answer your main question, we're 2nd tier.. and maybe the top of that second tier. What holds us back is coaching and low post offense. Still, in a 7 game series, we're a tough out. We have the athletic ability to play with anybody and we can beat anybody 4 times out of 7 when healthy.

Many of the teams in the league has flaws. However, some are as good as advertised... For instance:

1. LA Lakers. They have everything. Getting Artest to go along with Odom this summer makes them very tough. They lacked toughness and now they have it.

2. Denver - As long as Denver has Chauncey, they are a top team. Chauncey makes everybody better. They really didn't lose anything and they picked up Affalo and Petro.

Everybody knows that I believe Orlando has fallen off. I also think that competitively, Cleveland won't be as good as expected. The thoughts are that Lebron can play with anybody and Shaq makes Lebron more dangerous.. I say it's just the opposite. Shaq will limit Lebron. Shaq is old, slow, doesn't play good defense, can't run with athletic teams...and worst of all is that he will crowd the middle. Lebron has just lost his drive to the bucket (when Shaq is in the game). Shaq will be a disappointment in Cleveland. Good teams will know to outrun Shaq and to force Lebron to the perimeter knowing that Shaq is crowding the Center. It's this very same thing that helped Detroit beat the Lakers a few years back. Shaq being in the middle allowed Tayshun to lock down Kobe on the perimeter and made the contest a victory for the Pistons.

Boston is a wildcard... I mean, Getting Rasheed was great. I really don't see anything bad from that. I think his bad boy days have passed. The question is what's with KG. IF KG is not 100%, the Cs will be good but not great.

So who else is elite:

I will still give the Cs the benefit of the doubt.

Washington - At full strength, this team has too many weapons. Arenas is a beast. Butler and Jamison are as good as they ever were. With Foye, Miller, and the young bigs.. this team is plain scary. If Arenas stays healthy, I think they will break that 45 win mark and become one of the better eams in the east.

The Spurs - Duncan, Ginobili, Parker are always good... add Jefferson, Mcdyess... now you got something else to consider.

Teams that are on the 2nd tier with us?

1. Indy = With the return of Granger, the addition of Head... and Hibbert coming along... I think this team will be strongly competitive.

2. Chicago = I give Chicago grief because they lost it's best player... but Salmons and Miller are no jokes. Maybe it created clarity. Plus, all Rose does is get better.

3. PTL = the parade of stars. The problem is that they don't have the right coaching either. They need a guy who has won it before.

4. GS - It is no joke. Nellie experiments, but his team from top to bottom is filled with good players. The question is Defense.

5. Houston . Probably the biggest question mark. Yao? Tmac? Scola? If they get over injuries by midseason, they could push for the finals.

Teams on the 3rd tier.

1. Charlotte. Possible 2nd tier team simply due to coaching. I think Chandler is better than Okafor. I think Chandler-Wallace-Diaw will make a strong defensive combo that will be hard to solve. Offensively though..... This team needs a marquee offensive player in the worst way.

2. Oklahoma City - this team is one of my favorite stories. I believe they have the best back to back to back drafts in History:

Durant& Green then Westbrook&White then Harden and Mullens... That's great. They have a long way to go, but they are young and fun.

3. N.O. - they are sliding. Paul is still great. HOF... But they can't compliment him worth a damn in N.O. IF I'm Paul, I'm demanding a trade to Atlanta for Joe Johnson SNT. Damn, they drafted Collison??!? You draft a first round BU? They also got Thornton.

4. Miami. Of course they have Wade and of course they have Beasley... but then what? I think that's enough toget them to the third tier.

I think what most people will miss... is that as long as we have replacement officials, the better it will be for a team like ours. Star power is kinda nullified with replacement officials.

[coachx]

Everyone of the truely "elite teams" have one thing in common. A true offensive post option to go to in the half court. (Shaq, Illgalskus, KG, Gasol, Duncan, Howard,and even Bynum).

The Hawks were 5th in the league in fast break points last year. We have to keep that up with solid defense and over the top effort in order tp have a real shot of beating one of the elite teams in a 7 game playoffs series. With our "expierenced youth", athletic ability, and new found depth, we may be able to out work and out hustle some of these older teams in a best of 7 series. One thing I believe is that this years team will not be scared in the least no matter who we play in the playoffs. They will believe they can win and will attack like crazy with reckless abandon. That is what we will have to do vs. older clubs like the Celtics and Spurs.

I am intested to see if Garnett and Duncan's knees can hold up for another 82 game season and playoff run. Shaq and Vince Carter too for that matter. They could be mere shells of their former selves by the time the 2nd round of the playoffs gets here next Apri & May.

Edited October 20, 2009 by coachx

[Blunt91]

Elite!! I would say yes when you have an atheletic explosive team that can beat you from so many different angles offensively and defensively. I had an earlier topic where I breifly broke down every team and could not find a rational reason why there is any body we could not compete with. We may have a lapse here and there depending on how much we come out playing to our potential every night but all and all their is no team we can't beat.

The Lakers had a dynasty end against coach Larry Brown and his defensive coach Mike Woodson, who we got the year after. Bibby always saves a little something something for the Lakers. Although Smith and Horford are undersized they fair pretty well against them. If you look at some of our recent games against the Lakers we fair pretty well against them despite their size advantage(Our athleticism and good shooting helps). Artest is a big X factor which could be good or bad depending on which team you are on and maybe which night. I say we start with throwing Crawford at him and just make him chase the hot hand (Marvin, Joe, Moe and others )all night. Lakers are going to be pretty tough and their at their prime old So they'll still be able to hang pretty well with us but I would not count Woodson "The Evil Genious" out.

The Celtics can go with a line up of Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo. Even though they have a fab five(Our five are pretty good as well) four of the five are old(basketball years). It's hard to believe that they want be missing a step or two with their production and playing at a high pace/intensity without injuries occuring. We on the other hand can defend them pretty well and should be able to run them out the gym(or at least get them a little winded). As they fall we should be able to rise.

The Cavs with Lebron and Shaq are going to be dominant. Scouts can say all they want but Lebron is the type of player knows how to play with almost anyone. Shaq knows he's aging(which will play a factor) so he also will be more willing to do what it takes. Will his body and Lebron's hold up for the 82 game season is the question? Without Lebron the Cavs maybe able to still win some games but will not be considered elite. Without Shaq the Cavs can still be elite of course but may still be dominated by bigs and attacked by angles from taller shooters. Crawford, playing our 6'5 pg at times with Joe being our 6'7 shooting guard is going to be a hard cover for Mo Williams and Delonte West. If they switched in defense it will be hard for Anthony Parker and Jamerio Moon to stick with Joe and Jamal on offense. This and our relentlessness will be our X factors along with the improvement of our youth 23 and younger and the cohesion of our vets(Johnson,Bibby,Crawford).

The Magic are deep dominate inside and out and can defend. Or is their defensive scheme last year going to be affected by having a more traditional lineup. The length of a powerful athletic 6'11 player is great but to have two 6'10 guys with him that are long and can stretch the floor is a big commodity. They can still stretch the floor and may have gotten even tougher on the inside but may not be as mobile to get to the outside man. This could change the dynamic of their defense(which alot of people sleep on) which could also change the outcome of their success.

The Spurs are monsters but are struggling to stay healthy and their big three and company are getting up in age as well. They are a smart team so they know how to compensate for their age but it's hard to compensate for injuries. It's hard to see them being at full strength for the whole season and when it really counts which will affect their chances.

Heat/Sixers maybe Bulls not the Raptors/Washington/Pistons are the teams that may be of concerned. Until Raptors and Washington can show some toughness and defense they will not be Elite and since that's what we're gunning for they should not be our competition. Pistons look to be turning from the pistons to a slower paced suns(all offense). Can the Pistons handle an identity change. The Bulls are a tough scrappy athletic team like us but we may have more/better guns in our arsenal. Has everyone forgotten about Brand? Unless he is injury prone he will still be a forced to be reckoned with. With back up in the front court two explosive wings and a guard that may play better as a off guard any way the 76ers are ones you shouldn't sleep on. Our chemistry and tactics is what should help us overcome this team(We definitetly have to come out and play though). The Heat may surprise some people when they come back better. It's a motivational year for basically the whole team who have all been together for a year now and have more of a sense of what it takes. Wade still has doubters which is all the motivation he needs. Beasley has his career on the line. JOneal understands that his time is limited in more ways than one. Spoeltra did pretty good as a rookie coach(easy when you have Wade) and will look to improve. Quentin Richardson will add another shooter/hungry motivated player to prove something to his doubters(which may be many). Still don't think they have quite enough but don't be surprised if the 4th and 5th positions don't change.

ThePacers and Bobcats may challenge for 8th seed but that's about it(In my opinion).

Not to bash Joe Johnson, but you can't say that Delonte West would have a hard time guarding Joe, because he gave Joe fits in the playoff series last year. West has quick hands and feet, he was good at staying in front of Joe and knocking the ball away from him.

[buckeye242424]

Not to bash Joe Johnson, but you can't say that Delonte West would have a hard time guarding Joe, because he gave Joe fits in the playoff series last year. West has quick hands and feet, he was good at staying in front of Joe and knocking the ball away from him.

Not saying that you're "bashing" Joe, but Delonte West was facing an all-star that had no gas left in the tank. Compund that with two important pieces to the Hawks success injured and we're facing the team with the best record in the league. I'm not saying Joe quit....I'm saying he was spent. Whenever we play Cleveland the first time in the regular season, I think you would see a different Joe Johsnon. And if West is guarding him, it will be to our advantage. Point being, cut Joe's minutes - well documented.

I'm not quite clear on what is considered "elite". If we're measuring regular season wins, the Hawks wouldn't be too far off in the East. Anytime you make the playoffs, more importantly secure homecourt, we're close. "Elite" to me, in the NBA, means winning championships - and showing that you can compete for a ring consistently, over a significant amount of time. For example, Detroit was an elite team earlier this decade. Not anymore. The only elite teams I see in the NBA right now are the : Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs. (I'm sure many think Orlando should be in there, but they need to prove it again this year. One year doesn't make a team "elite").

[capstone21]

4. GS - It is no joke. Nellie experiments, but his team from top to bottom is filled with good players. The question is Defense.

Golden State are a joke and a mess. Nellie has no idea what he is doing any more.

This team has talent but it has zero chemistry or defense. I don't see them doing anything but a low 20 win season.

[Joker]

Good post Sillent, I got my eyes on you. Your a great up and coming poster.

[Buzzard]

I'm not quite clear on what is considered "elite". If we're measuring regular season wins, the Hawks wouldn't be too far off in the East. Anytime you make the playoffs, more importantly secure homecourt, we're close. "Elite" to me, in the NBA, means winning championships - and showing that you can compete for a ring consistently, over a significant amount of time. For example, Detroit was an elite team earlier this decade. Not anymore. The only elite teams I see in the NBA right now are the : Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs. (I'm sure many think Orlando should be in there, but they need to prove it again this year. One year doesn't make a team "elite").

Almost agree. Orlando and the Cavs both need another championship series and Utah could be if healthy for a couple of years. But for now its Lakers, Celitics, and Spurs. If you look harder at the Cavs; they meet the same criteria that Orlando does. Just one champioship series and they got beat in that one worse than Orlando did last year.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Buzzard

[sillent]

Good post Sillent, I got my eyes on you. Your a great up and coming poster.

Thank You!!

[Diesel]

Golden State are a joke and a mess. Nellie has no idea what he is doing any more.

This team has talent but it has zero chemistry or defense. I don't see them doing anything but a low 20 win season.

I don't see how you can look at that collection of talent and say low 20 wins.

Last season they won almost 30 games with most of their team going to the IL. They got young guys that most of the league drools over... Morrow, Randolph, Ellis, Watson, Biedrins and Curry... are guys who have a strong future in this league. And they have vets..Like Jackson George, Moore, and Turiaf. In one sense, they are just like us in Build but they are all in in the uptempo philosophy. Still, I look to them to get in one more trade. Probably moving Jackson's ending contract for a Big.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I think we have elite potential. And I don't think it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic to rely on that elite potential being fulfilled by the light bulb going off in Josh Smith who actually becomes everything he can be and more. But by a guy who no one in the media is talking about when it comes to Hawks previews and that's the rookie Jeff Teague.

Am I the only one who sees star potential in that young kid? I think he is finally the final piece to this team. A team with 5 guys who can run the floor, create their own shots, and go for 20 on any given night.

We finally have that dribble penetration PG. A guy who opens things up on the outside and can dish the lay off pass on the inside.

With Teague starting that may be the most athletic starting 5 in NBA history. The question is how long will it take before he gets a chance to start?

Edited October 21, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[Buzzard]

I think we have elite potential. And I don't think it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic to rely on that elite potential being fulfilled by the light bulb going off in Josh Smith who actually becomes everything he can be and more. But by a guy who no one in the media is talking about when it comes to Hawks previews and that's the rookie Jeff Teague.

Am I the only one who sees star potential in that young kid? I think he is finally the final piece to this team. A team with 5 guys who can run the floor, create their own shots, and go for 20 on any given night.

We finally have that dribble penetration PG. A guy who opens things up on the outside and can dish the lay off pass on the inside.

With Teague starting that may be the most athletic starting 5 in NBA history. The question is how long will it take before he gets a chance to start?

Teague is our PG of the future but to put the franchise on his shoulders is asking a bit much. We need post help and that means Horf and/or Smoove have to improve. I think both Paul and Deron are prime examples of having great interior help and this was the key to their quick success record wise and in the playoffs. We have nothing comparable yet to Boozer, Millsap, and Okur...or Chandler/now Okafor and West.

If either Horf or Smoove blows up as a dominat post presence we have a chance to be elite; until then its just not going to happen.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Buzzard