Nice rant about JJ

[TheNorthCydeRises]

They shouldn't have to be "average" one on one scorers. They don't know what to do when JJ is out becuase JJ IS the offense. When he's not on the floor, we look even more stupid because the entire "system" is Joe Johnson. There's a reason he's burnt out and worn into the ground. If he's not in the game, we are five guys standing with our thumb up our butts because everyone is lost! (Why Flip was so important - he was the ONE guy that could create his own shot = career year = our head coach is clueless).

But after 2 years ( Horford ) and 4 years ( Smith and Marvin ) of playing with JJ, they're STILL CLUELESS?

I mean, it's very easy to blame the offensive system for their problems. But how much blame should we place on the players? Or better yet, are we fans expecting the players to do things that they simply can't do on a nightly basis?

I want Smoove to play like a real PF. A tough guy PF. But maybe Diesel is right about him. Maybe he does have a SF mentality, and will always tend to play soft, even if he's best utilized at PF. That's pretty much been the criticizm of Lamar Odom his entire career. That he plays too soft, considering his skill level.

We all want JJ to be able to flip the switch, and be able to carry the team at times. But it's obvious that he doesn't have that mentality to be selfish, and literally take a game over. We've really only seen that one time out of him in 4 years ( Game 4 in the Boston series ). And come to think of it, those very same criticizms were said about Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. That he was almost too much of a "team guy", and didn't look to take games over offensively on a nightly basis . . if he could at all.

So I don't know man.

If we were to put in Eddie Jordan's Princeton offense, could our players run it effectively? ( and will that offense look as good in Philly, as it did in Washington . . with Iggy, Brand, and Lou Williams being the focal points . . . instead of Arenas, Butler, and Jamison )

What about Jerry Sloan's Pick and Roll offense? ( an offense ran effectively by Stockton and Malone . . . and now by Deron and Boozer )

Phil Jackson's Triangle offense ( an offense headed by 2 of the greatest players ever to play the game: Kobe and Jordan )

I can't say for a fact that our guys could run ANY of those offenses efficiently.

Because in the NBA, while a good offensive system may be important, it basically comes down to the players you have on the squad. Because if the T-Wolves were running the Triangle, I don't know if that would make them a better team.

When it coms down to it, you simply need guys who can make plays and make shots.

[buckeye242424]

C'mon Dr. If the other guys don't see JJ as the "leader", then there is a problem. JJ is the guy - whether right or wrong - it's been thrust upon him to continue this teams success.

[buckeye242424]

But after 2 years ( Horford ) and 4 years ( Smith and Marvin ) of playing with JJ, they're STILL CLUELESS?

I mean, it's very easy to blame the offensive system for their problems. But how much blame should we place on the players? Or better yet, are we fans expecting the players to do things that they simply can't do on a nightly basis?

I want Smoove to play like a real PF. A tough guy PF. But maybe Diesel is right about him. Maybe he does have a SF mentality, and will always tend to play soft, even if he's best utilized at PF. That's pretty much been the criticizm of Lamar Odom his entire career. That he plays too soft, considering his skill level.

We all want JJ to be able to flip the switch, and be able to carry the team at times. But it's obvious that he doesn't have that mentality to be selfish, and literally take a game over. We've really only seen that one time out of him in 4 years ( Game 4 in the Boston series ). And come to think of it, those very same criticizms were said about Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. That he was almost too much of a "team guy", and didn't look to take games over offensively on a nightly basis . . if he could at all.

So I don't know man.

If we were to put in Eddie Jordan's Princeton offense, could our players run it effectively? ( and will that offense look as good in Philly, as it did in Washington . . with Iggy, Brand, and Lou Williams being the focal points . . . instead of Arenas, Butler, and Jamison )

What about Jerry Sloan's Pick and Roll offense? ( an offense ran effectively by Stockton and Malone . . . and now by Deron and Boozer )

Phil Jackson's Triangle offense ( an offense headed by 2 of the greatest players ever to play the game: Kobe and Jordan )

I can't say for a fact that our guys could run ANY of those offenses efficiently.

Because in the NBA, while a good offensive system may be important, it basically comes down to the players you have on the squad. Because if the T-Wolves were running the Triangle, I don't know if that would make them a better team.

When it coms down to it, you simply need guys who can make plays and make shots.

At least it's an offense. Great ideas! I would rather burn trying to run something!

[AHF]

Three things need to be addressed in this conversation. Since everyone is talking offense first, let's begin theere.

1) If people don't want JJ dominating the ball, and want more ball movement, why is it that everytime JJ exits a game, the players ( talking about Marvin, Horford, and Smoove ) hardly ever step up to the plate offensively?

When JJ is out of a game, that's their chance to show that they can be viable offensive threats, right? So why doesn't it happen more times than not? It doesn't happen because those guys aren't even average one on one scorers. They perform poorly ( other than Smoove on some nights ) when they have to create their own shot.

And because of this, no one worries about sending a diouble team toward Horford, or Marvin, or Smith. They can play those guys straight up, while JJ just sits outside waiting for the ball to return to him. A ball that may never come, because his man isn't going to leave JJ to double Marvin.

The simple answer in my mind is that Marvin, Smooth and Horford are not iso players. You need to involve them in an actual offense to maximize their talents. We don't switch from iso-JJ to some other system of screens, picks, cuts, etc. with these athletic forwards when JJ goes out. Consequently, you have players who are not that good at creating their own shot in isolation on the floor without the best other scorer. So the answer can't be to simply take JJ off the floor. It is more fundamentally about the system and whether that system is designed to emphasize the strengths of our forwards and hide their weaknesses. (Answer: It isn't.)

2) The only way you can maximize the talent of Smith, Horford, and Marvin, is if you run ISO JJ at times ( in which when a team sends a double team to JJ, he can rotate the ball to a wide open shooter ) . . . .OR . . . . if you have a penetrating playmaker that can dart in and out of the lane, and either get a lay-up, somebody else a lay-up, or for that PG to drive and kick it out to a shooter.

I fundamentally disagree with this premise. There are a lot of systems that would do a MUCH better job of maximizing their talents than iso-JJ. That said, a penetrating playmaker would be huge for everyone on the team so I agree with that part.

Since people have a problem with ISO JJ, let's address the penetrating playmaker. First off, Bibby CAN'T do this. At this point in his career, he's merrely a stamdstill jumpshooter, or a shooter that can use picks or a few dribbles to set up his jumper. He's not going to blow past somebody ( ala Steve Nash ), get into the lane, and get an easy look for somebody on the inside, or with a kick-out pass to a 3 point shooter.

So the alternative is to hope that Crawford and Teague can do this on a regular basis, to get guys easy looks. When Woody alluded to Zaza is going to love playing with Crawford and Teague, this is what he was talking about. Their penetration into the lane will force a guy like Howard to stop their advance before they get a lay-up. At that point, a smart penetrating playmaker would get the ball to Zaza, and get him an easy lay-up.

The answer is also installing pick and rolls, screens, motion, cuts, etc. in our offense, not relying on someone else to get people an easy shot, although I certainly agree that a penetrating playmaker could do some impressive things with this lineup.

It's not because they don't play hard, because they do. But on most nights, they won't always put a body on somebody, to give them a better chance at a rebound . . or fight through a pick ( my main beef with Bibby on defense ) . . or aggressively close out a shooter with hands up.

Agreed.

This is why Woody always preaches defense and rebounding, before he starts worrying about the offense. When we defend and rebound, we win games. But we've shot 55%+ on occasion, and lost games, due to poor rebounding and defense.

I don't see developing an offense and defense as mutually exclusive.

So when Woody says ish like "defense and rebounding will take care off the offense, ( for this team ), he's actually right, because those two things great fast break and quick open shot opportunities.

I think he is wrong because you can't count of the offense to take care of itself. You need to be proactive as a coach. He is right that this team won't win without a strong emphasis on defense and rebounding but, again, those things are not mutually exclusive.

Mike Woodson is in his 6th year of installing offensive and defensive systems. There is no excuse for not having the time to get to something.

[exodus]

1) If people don't want JJ dominating the ball, and want more ball movement, why is it that everytime JJ exits a game, the players ( talking about Marvin, Horford, and Smoove ) hardly ever step up to the plate offensively?

When JJ is out of a game, that's their chance to show that they can be viable offensive threats, right? So why doesn't it happen more times than not? It doesn't happen because those guys aren't even average one on one scorers. They perform poorly ( other than Smoove on some nights ) when they have to create their own shot.

Marvin did step up when JJ was out last year. In fact it was the Charlotte game that JJ missed where Marvin got to the line 20 times. When Smith and Bibby were both out at Denver Marvin went one on one time and again and dropped 31.

When JJ missed the end of the season with an injury Smith averaged 20 ppg for the last two months of the season. That was 2 years ago and he is obviously a better scorer down low now than he was then.

Horford is just scared to drive. I don't know of any other explanation as to why he refuses to take slower players off the dribble.

[AUhawksfan]

Marvin did step up when JJ was out last year. In fact it was the Charlotte game that JJ missed where Marvin got to the line 20 times. When Smith and Bibby were both out at Denver Marvin went one on one time and again and dropped 31.

When JJ missed the end of the season with an injury Smith averaged 20 ppg for the last two months of the season. That was 2 years ago and he is obviously a better scorer down low now than he was then.

Horford is just scared to drive. I don't know of any other explanation as to why he refuses to take slower players off the dribble.

Thank you for pointing this out, I was thinking the same thing. It has been shown that we have players that can step up in JJ's absence. As for Horford, he seems to have it set in his mind what his role is and he never really tries to do too much offensively.

Either way, Woodson really has to change the way we approach our offense when JJ is on the bench. It just seems that we rely on iso Joe far too often to the point that our players are lost when he is not in the game. I think when JJ was out last year for a small stretch we were able to better prepare and the players knew for a fact they would have to step up in his absence and not rely on him, which is exactly what Marvin did.

Edited October 27, 2009 by AUhawksfan

[ATLSmith]

Joe doesn't suck. Iso Joe sucks.

All the Magic did in that game was double-team him and we were screwed (watch the first quarter again if you have it recorded). Would have loved to see Crawford come in at the 2 to replace Joe or even at the 1 to distribute the ball and get some pressure off Joe. Everything I've read says the Crawford can pass and makes other players arround him better. Why not have him in there to distribute to Marv, Smith, Horf, and possibly Joe? He can then score when open.

I've been patient with Woody in the past but if we don't make some changes to the offence by mid-season, he's got to go.

[coachx]

I agree 100%. And what I wonder about is why can't we get Marvin just as involved with JJ in and he is when JJ is out? Same coach but he has them play different when JJ is out.

I think its because the ball "has" to go through JJ (SG) over 50% of the time when he is in and that does not happen when someone else (SG) starts in his place.

Marvin, and his big "duck butt", would be perfectly utilized setting picks for JJ.............why can't these 2 run pick and rolls off each other ? With Marvin's ability to roll off the pick for a mid range jumper coupled with his ability to draw fouls while cutting to the basket causes this to just make too much sense.

[EazyRoc]

Marvin, and his big "duck butt", would be perfectly utilized setting picks for JJ.............why can't these 2 run pick and rolls off each other ? With Marvin's ability to roll off the pick for a mid range jumper coupled with his ability to draw fouls while cutting to the basket causes this to just make too much sense.

lol, I think that's the problem. The pick and roll would work so well with Marvin, Josh, and Al. However, Bibby isn't a good enough penetrator and JJ just doesn't run it. One thing I also noticed is that Teague refuses to use picks as well. Someone will set a pick for him and he'll go the other way.

[AHF]

lol, I think that's the problem. The pick and roll would work so well with Marvin, Josh, and Al. However, Bibby isn't a good enough penetrator and JJ just doesn't run it. One thing I also noticed is that Teague refuses to use picks as well. Someone will set a pick for him and he'll go the other way.

Bibby and JJ could both run a pick and roll if it was coached, IMO. John Stockton wasn't a great penetrator at the end of his career and had zero problem with it. We don't build it into our gameplan for whatever reason. With JJ's dribbling and passing skills, there is no reason in the world he couldn't run it.

[MaceCase]

Bibby and JJ could both run a pick and roll if it was coached, IMO. John Stockton wasn't a great penetrator at the end of his career and had zero problem with it. We don't build it into our gameplan for whatever reason. With JJ's dribbling and passing skills, there is no reason in the world he couldn't run it.

Add in that we had Marvin work on his handle all summer to go along with Horf working on his jumper to go along with Josh's natural explosiveness you would think we have so many options for pick and roll/pick and pop.

[Atlantaholic]

Is it just me or are good NBA coaches just much rarer today than in years past... Maybe it is just the way I perceived the league when I was younger but guys like Mike Woodson and Mike Brown would never have been head coaches in the Jordan era. They are two of the most visibly clueless coaches I have ever seen and yet they are the "leaders" of two of the best teams in the east. The only difference between Brown and Woodson is that instead of ISO Joe, Brown runs ISO James. Obviously one is much more effective than the other but the coaching is just as pathetic. The coach in Miami (forgot his name) is also a total joke of a coach... It's like GM's have decided that coaching is secondary and that as long as you have a star you can just ride him to a championship.