If Josh Smith isn't the starting PF in the All-Star game

[Sothron]

Josh if he keeps this up absolutely should be going to the AS game. He and JJ should be locks. Horford will be the odd man out because the two centers will probably be Howard and the Nets Lopez.

[ATLSmith]

Vote for him here:

https://audience.nba.com/services/msib/flow/all_star_ballot?url=null&src=eng&mcode=null&cid=null

[niremetal]

Josh if he keeps this up absolutely should be going to the AS game. He and JJ should be locks. Horford will be the odd man out because the two centers will probably be Howard and the Nets Lopez.

If the Nets are like 5-23 at the time the reserves are announced, I would be shocked if Lopez's name were even breathed in the same sentence as "All-Star." Assuming Dwight wins the fan vote, the only centers besides Horford who should even be in the discussion are the O'Neals and Bogut. Joakim Noah would normally be in contention considering that he is leading the NBA in rebounding, but he (like Battier) got shafted when the All-Star ballots were made. That will make it tough for the coaches to include him, since it would be too embarrassing for the Bulls and the NBA for a guy to be put on the team who didn't even make the ballot.

Right now, Horford is the clear-cut second-best center in the East (behind Howard), and probably the third-best center in the NBA (Howard and Bynum - assuming you're counting Duncan as a PF). Ain't that somethin'?

Edited November 19, 2009 by niremetal

[Sothron]

If the Nets are like 5-23 at the time the reserves are announced, I would be shocked if Lopez's name were even breathed in the same sentence as "All-Star." Assuming Dwight wins the fan vote, the only centers besides Horford who should even be in the discussion are the O'Neals and Bogut. Joakim Noah would normally be in contention considering that he is leading the NBA in rebounding, but he (like Battier) got shafted when the All-Star ballots were made. That will make it tough for the coaches to include him, since it would be too embarrassing for the Bulls and the NBA for a guy to be put on the team who didn't even make the ballot.

Right now, Horford is the clear-cut second-best center in the East (behind Howard), and probably the third-best center in the NBA (Howard and Bynum - assuming you're counting Duncan as a PF). Ain't that somethin'?

You can't hold someone's team w/l record against an individual accomplishment. Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East, Horford is third. Keep in mind Lopez has been without his his all star point guard all season.

[BusBoyIsBack]

You can't hold someone's team w/l record against an individual accomplishment. Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East, Horford is third. Keep in mind Lopez has been without his his all star point guard all season.

But history shows record can clearly have an impact on guys making the all-star game. You think Rashard Lewis makes the all-star game if he didn't play on Orlando? Look at all those Pistons who made it back in the day. If the Pistons were as terrible as the Nets no way all those guys go.

That's why although it sounds just right silly given our history, if we keep this winning up, we could not only finally have two all-stars but who knows maybe 3. But yeah Horford is obviously a bigger long shot.

Josh Smith, the all-star bid is his for the taking right now. Not as a starter over Bosh, but definitely to make the team.

Edited November 19, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[niremetal]

You can't hold someone's team w/l record against an individual accomplishment. Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East, Horford is third. Keep in mind Lopez has been without his his all star point guard all season.

Uh....first off, yes you can hold it against them, unless they are playing transcendent basketball. That's why Kevin Durant hasn't made an All-Star team yet, and why JJ only got selected as an alternate after 2 guys got hurt when he was averaging 25ppg back in 06-07. Brook Lopez is playing very good, but far from transcendent, basketball. He's giving up lots of points to opposing centers and his stats aren't as impressive as you seem to think - he's below 18ppg and 9rpg. For a center, that's hardly incredible. Winning team isn't a prerequisite, nor should it be, but it absolutely is and should be a factor to consider. After all, Horford probably would be averaging more points and more blocks if he and Lopez switched places, since he'd get more touches and would be the #1 help defender. And conversely, Lopez would probably have much less gaudy stats if he were playing on a team whose only other offensive threat so far this year wasn't Chris Douglas-Roberts (which is why, btw, Harris's absense is a double-edged sword as far as Lopez's production).

Second and related, it's not like Lopez is clearly outplaying Horford even on paper. He's averaging 17.2 and 8.5. Horford is averaging 13.8 and 10.3. Lopez has more blocks, but Horford is also holding opposing centers to way fewer points than Lopez has been. Horford is also averaging 2 fewer minutes per game. No doubt Lopez is a stud, but I think Horford has played better this year, and for a MUCH better team.

I admit that I may have overreached when I said Horford was the "clear-cut" second best center in the East. But you think Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East? Good luck convincing people that you're right, and good luck convincing people that it's clear.

Edited November 19, 2009 by niremetal

[Diesel]

You can't hold someone's team w/l record against an individual accomplishment. Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East, Horford is third. Keep in mind Lopez has been without his his all star point guard all season.

Insider, you didn't know that the record means a whole lot? Lopez won't be voted in by the fans, that's Dwight Howard. Therefore, the decision will be made based on merits. There's an unspoken rule about allstars, if you are an allstar, your team's record should reflect it. I've never agreed, but I understand it.

[Sothron]

Uh....first off, yes you can hold it against them, unless they are playing transcendent basketball. That's why Kevin Durant hasn't made an All-Star team yet, and why JJ only got selected as an alternate after 2 guys got hurt when he was averaging 25ppg back in 06-07. Brook Lopez is playing very good, but far from transcendent, basketball. He's giving up lots of points to opposing centers and his stats aren't as impressive as you seem to think - he's below 18ppg and 9rpg. For a center, that's hardly incredible. Winning team isn't a prerequisite, nor should it be, but it absolutely is and should be a factor to consider. After all, Horford probably would be averaging more points and more blocks if he and Lopez switched places, since he'd get more touches and would be the #1 help defender. And conversely, Lopez would probably have much less gaudy stats if he were playing on a team whose only other offensive threat so far this year wasn't Chris Douglas-Roberts (which is why, btw, Harris's absense is a double-edged sword as far as Lopez's production).

Second and related, it's not like Lopez is clearly outplaying Horford even on paper. He's averaging 17.2 and 8.5. Horford is averaging 13.8 and 10.3. Lopez has more blocks, but Horford is also holding opposing centers to way fewer points than Lopez has been. Horford is also averaging 2 fewer minutes per game. No doubt Lopez is a stud, but I think Horford has played better this year, and for a MUCH better team.

I admit that I may have overreached when I said Horford was the "clear-cut" second best center in the East. But you think Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East? Good luck convincing people that you're right, and good luck convincing people that it's clear.

If you've watched the Nets play this year you will see why I think Lopez is the best EC center so far this year. He's almost the entire offense which means the opposing team is sending double to triple teams to his side and trying to stop him from setting up in the post. Getting Harris back will help him get easier looks and also some easy baskets thanks to transition and Harris being able to give him clear looks around the basket. I do not think Horf would be putting up the same kind of numbers if their positions were switched because quite honestly Horf isn't an offensive minded player. He doesn't really look for his own shot, I think exodus is correct in his criticisms of Horf's offensive game. Lopez doesn't have that problem. He's also been in the league a year less than Horf which gives him another edge in direct comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to complain if Horford is a third Hawk all star and Lopez is left in the cold. I do not approve of using a team's w/l record against a player whose stuck on bad teams. If anything being stuck on a bad team makes a single player stand out even more because the other team only has to worry about stopping maybe one or two guys. The years where JJ or JT were our only real offensive option should point out what I'm talking about.

[Traceman]

If you've watched the Nets play this year you will see why I think Lopez is the best EC center so far this year. He's almost the entire offense which means the opposing team is sending double to triple teams to his side and trying to stop him from setting up in the post. Getting Harris back will help him get easier looks and also some easy baskets thanks to transition and Harris being able to give him clear looks around the basket. I do not think Horf would be putting up the same kind of numbers if their positions were switched because quite honestly Horf isn't an offensive minded player. He doesn't really look for his own shot, I think exodus is correct in his criticisms of Horf's offensive game. Lopez doesn't have that problem. He's also been in the league a year less than Horf which gives him another edge in direct comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to complain if Horford is a third Hawk all star and Lopez is left in the cold. I do not approve of using a team's w/l record against a player whose stuck on bad teams. If anything being stuck on a bad team makes a single player stand out even more because the other team only has to worry about stopping maybe one or two guys. The years where JJ or JT were our only real offensive option should point out what I'm talking about.

Lopez is a good player but if Al Jefferson didn't get in after averaging 23/11 for a bad team, I can't imagine Lopez getting in with 17/9. I'd actually be more worried about Shaq, Bogut or Noah at this point.

[niremetal]

If you've watched the Nets play this year you will see why I think Lopez is the best EC center so far this year. He's almost the entire offense which means the opposing team is sending double to triple teams to his side and trying to stop him from setting up in the post. Getting Harris back will help him get easier looks and also some easy baskets thanks to transition and Harris being able to give him clear looks around the basket. I do not think Horf would be putting up the same kind of numbers if their positions were switched because quite honestly Horf isn't an offensive minded player. He doesn't really look for his own shot, I think exodus is correct in his criticisms of Horf's offensive game. Lopez doesn't have that problem. He's also been in the league a year less than Horf which gives him another edge in direct comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to complain if Horford is a third Hawk all star and Lopez is left in the cold. I do not approve of using a team's w/l record against a player whose stuck on bad teams. If anything being stuck on a bad team makes a single player stand out even more because the other team only has to worry about stopping maybe one or two guys. The years where JJ or JT were our only real offensive option should point out what I'm talking about.

I have watched the Nets play. And Horford is a better defender, a better rebounder, less foul-prone, a better passer, and just a more efficient player than Lopez. Lopez has a smoother offensive game, but Horford has lit it up a couple times this year and has consistently played more efficiently on both ends. Lopez is getting a lot of touches because the team sucks. His FG% is one of the league's worst among centers. And he gets a couple blocks on help D, but he also is playing frankly terrible on-ball D. Does he have a smoother post game on offense? Yes. But I seriously don't see any other area in which he has an edge over Horford.

As for Lopez being in the league a year less than Horford...so what? What does that have to do with who should make the All-Star team THIS year?

Sorry, but you seem to basing your assessment almost entirely on Lopez's scoring. And when you're talking about an 0-12 team, that's not much to hang your hat on.

Edited November 19, 2009 by niremetal

[Sothron]

I have watched the Nets play. And Horford is a better defender, a better rebounder, less foul-prone, a better passer, and just a more efficient player than Lopez. Lopez has a smoother offensive game, but Horford has lit it up a couple times this year and has consistently played more efficiently on both ends. Lopez is getting a lot of touches because the team sucks. His FG% is one of the league's worst among centers. And he gets a couple blocks on help D, but he also is playing frankly terrible on-ball D. Does he have a smoother post game on offense? Yes. But I seriously don't see any other area in which he has an edge over Horford.

As for Lopez being in the league a year less than Horford...so what? What does that have to do with who should make the All-Star team THIS year?

Sorry, but you seem to basing your assessment almost entirely on Lopez's scoring. And when you're talking about an 0-12 team, that's not much to hang your hat on.

So what? You don't think Lopez will improve in his third year like Horford has in his? Lopez as a second year guy is already well beyond where Horf is (and will always be for that matter) in terms of offense. He is a better low and high post player, he sets better screens and fights for position much better than Horf. Its not just about points. He makes his offense much better in comparison to Horf. As for rebounding and defense he does well enough there. I'm not saying Lopez is some kind of monster but being stuck on the team he's on and having zero support until Harris shows up, yes, his play so far is definitely better than Horford's.

Lopez is a good player but if Al Jefferson didn't get in after averaging 23/11 for a bad team, I can't imagine Lopez getting in with 17/9. I'd actually be more worried about Shaq, Bogut or Noah at this point.

I think we all agree that Jefferson not making the AS game last year was a joke the same way Deron Williams not being an AS is a joke.

[Traceman]

So what? You don't think Lopez will improve in his third year like Horford has in his? Lopez as a second year guy is already well beyond where Horf is (and will always be for that matter) in terms of offense. He is a better low and high post player, he sets better screens and fights for position much better than Horf. Its not just about points. He makes his offense much better in comparison to Horf. As for rebounding and defense he does well enough there. I'm not saying Lopez is some kind of monster but being stuck on the team he's on and having zero support until Harris shows up, yes, his play so far is definitely better than Horford's.

I think we all agree that Jefferson not making the AS game last year was a joke the same way Deron Williams not being an AS is a joke.

Lopez's "play" is NOT better than Horfords by any statistical measure that I can find. Lopez is a better scorer and PERHAPS shotblocker but that's it.

EFF Rating: Horford - 22.17 (21st in NBA) / Lopez -18.58 (40th in NBA)

PER: Horford - 20.86 (7th in the NBA among Centers) / Lopez - 17.12 (20th in the NBA among Centers)

Roland Rating: Horford - +17.2 (best on our team and Smove, JJ and Bibby are all OUTSTANDING here) / Lopez - -0.4 (not very good to say the least)

Lopez is not even in the race right now. It's early and things can certainly change but right now, Noah and Bogut appear to be Al's biggest competition (Shaq doesn't deserve it right now but he might get in on name recognition). Howard is a lock to start.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Sothron no one is saying that Lopez doesn't deserve to be an all-star, even the starter, but if you don't think record has anything to do with all-star voting you haven't been paying attention. Again look at our own team and what it took for Joe Johnson to make it, even the season he was averaging 25/4/4. Wasn't he an alternate that year?

And as mentioned, look at Al Jefferson for crying out loud. If it was solely off of numbers how in the world has he never made the all-star game? Not a big enough name for you, what about Durant? The media loves him but no all-star game yet.

Edited November 20, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[exodus]

Lopez has no shot at being in the All-Star game. I like his game but he would have to have overwhelming numbers given that he is playing on a crap team.

Bogut just went down with an injury which may improve Horford's chances. He will supposedly be out 2-4 weeks.

[Sothron]

Where am I disagreeing that w/l isn't taken into account by the coaches? I'm saying it should not count. I'm not denying coaches put players on good teams over more deserving players stuck on bad teams on the reserve list since the starters are just fan favorites (or happen to play in China hah!) I'm saying that is wrong and it should not be that way.

Those PER/EFF whatever else don't take into account the things I already mentioned. Where's the stat for establishing low post position and not being able to score due to a double team? Where is the stat for making a great screen? Where is the stat for being able to pass well out of the high post (or the low post) that two passes sets up a high field goal opportunity? Those things are vital in an offense that has a talented big man and Lopez does all of them well. He also is a better shot blocker than Horford and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

If you had to pick between the two on your team who would you rather have? Its like people saying they wouldn't want Al Jefferson or Devin Harris or Durant because their team win/loss is bad. That has nothing to do with their individual talent which is EXACTLY what the All star game should be about.

[HAWKSFAN89]

If we keep it up...

Josh = Starting PF.

Joe = Starting SG.

Bibby = Starting PG.

Horf = Reserve Center behind Howard.

&

Craw = Reserved SG.

& Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas, Rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, and Mo Williams will be watching from home...

OH Yeah,

And Woody will be coaching. Iso Joe Left. Iso Lebron Right. Iso Howard Middle.

LOL

[niremetal]

Where am I disagreeing that w/l isn't taken into account by the coaches? I'm saying it should not count. I'm not denying coaches put players on good teams over more deserving players stuck on bad teams on the reserve list since the starters are just fan favorites (or happen to play in China hah!) I'm saying that is wrong and it should not be that way.

Those PER/EFF whatever else don't take into account the things I already mentioned. Where's the stat for establishing low post position and not being able to score due to a double team? Where is the stat for making a great screen? Where is the stat for being able to pass well out of the high post (or the low post) that two passes sets up a high field goal opportunity? Those things are vital in an offense that has a talented big man and Lopez does all of them well. He also is a better shot blocker than Horford and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

If you had to pick between the two on your team who would you rather have? Its like people saying they wouldn't want Al Jefferson or Devin Harris or Durant because their team win/loss is bad. That has nothing to do with their individual talent which is EXACTLY what the All star game should be about.

I disagree that Lopez is a better shot-blocker than Horford. I think they have equal abilities in that regard but Horford doesn't have to play help D as much because his teammates are better on-ball defenders than Lopez's are, and Josh is our primary help defender in terms of blocking shots. In short, Lopez has more opportunities to block shots, so I'm not surprised he took them. It's not unlike how Smoove's block numbers went down last year after Horford's block numbers ticked up (although now they're both back up as they've adjusted to each others' presence). That's what happens when you play for a better team - the individual players' stats usually are less than they otherwise would be.

In any case, I don't see YOU disagreeing that Horford is less foul-prone, a better rebounder, better on-ball defender, better passer, and better running the floor on the break. But hey, if you think the fact that Lopez is a better scorer for a worse team trumps all that, fire away. Good luck convincing people you're right.

Edited November 20, 2009 by niremetal

[Traceman]

Where am I disagreeing that w/l isn't taken into account by the coaches? I'm saying it should not count. I'm not denying coaches put players on good teams over more deserving players stuck on bad teams on the reserve list since the starters are just fan favorites (or happen to play in China hah!) I'm saying that is wrong and it should not be that way.

Those PER/EFF whatever else don't take into account the things I already mentioned. Where's the stat for establishing low post position and not being able to score due to a double team? Where is the stat for making a great screen? Where is the stat for being able to pass well out of the high post (or the low post) that two passes sets up a high field goal opportunity? Those things are vital in an offense that has a talented big man and Lopez does all of them well. He also is a better shot blocker than Horford and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

If you had to pick between the two on your team who would you rather have? Its like people saying they wouldn't want Al Jefferson or Devin Harris or Durant because their team win/loss is bad. That has nothing to do with their individual talent which is EXACTLY what the All star game should be about.

So you think Lopez should make the All Star game over Horford based on INTANGIBLES?

Where's the stat for establishing low post position and not being able to score due to a double team?

Zaza can ESTABLISH low post position. What matters is what happens AFTER that position is established. If Lopez is unable to score due to double teams and he is such a great passer, why is averaging only 1.5 apg? He only averaged 1.0 apg last year so it's not like his assists went down due to the absence of good players around him. Both Vince Carter and Devin Harris were on that team. Al is averaging 2.0 apg and he averaged 2.4 apg last year. Al is clearly the better passer - from ANYWHERE.

Where is the stat for making a great screen?

Zaza sets one heck of a screen and so does Al. Check out Bibby and Al on the pick and roll as of late.

Where is the stat for being able to pass well out of the high post (or the low post) that two passes sets up a high field goal opportunity?

If Lopez is such a great passer, why is he only averaging 1.5 apg? Notorious blackhole Zach Randolph is averaging 2.4 apg and averages 1.7 apg for his career.

He also is a better shot blocker than Horford and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

He is. But Horford is a better all around defender.

Lopez won't make the All Star game ahead of Bogut, let alone Al. Lopez faced off against Bogut in his last game.

Lopez - 11 pts, 4 rebs, 1 ast, 3 blk

Bogut - 21 pts, 11rebs, 3 ast, 1 blk

If you had to pick between the two on your team who would you rather have?

Lopez is a good young player and he's a "True Center" but give me Al. Al is already a better all around player and he has more upside in my opinion.

The reason everyone says we need a true Center is so that we can contend with the Howards and Boguts of the world. Well, you see what Bogut did to Lopez in the last game but that pales in comparison to what Howard has done to him this year. NJ has played ORL twice this season. Lopez' and Howard's averages in those 2 games are as follows:

Lopez - 7.5 ppg, 4.5 rbg, 0.5 apg, 2.0 bpg

Howard - 23.0 ppg, 17.0 rbg, 1.0 apg, 4.5 bpg

Lopez' best game this year was vs IND (26 pts, 16 rebs, 3 ast, 5 blks in 46 minutes). Very impressive. Al's best game was vs IND as well (24 pts, 16 rebs, 4 ast, 2 blks in 34 minutes). I'm rolling with Al.

Obviously, Lopez can't stop Howard and he can't score on him either. Lopez would not have much of an impact for us versus Howard or Bogut. I'll take my chances with Al.