A Lot of Joe hater....why?

[MVP23]

Ever Since Joe has been here, he has been doing the same thing. Dribble for the entire shot clock, and try to make something happen. He is basically a chucker..but he doesn't shoot immediately like Craw..oh no, he waste time of the clock. Sometimes upwards of 15-20 seconds, just dribbling..the thing is..HE WAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING THIS!! But I can't remember the last time Joe has ever gotten this much hate...whats going on?

[Buzzard]

Ever Since Joe has been here, he has been doing the same thing. Dribble for the entire shot clock, and try to make something happen. He is basically a chucker..but he doesn't shoot immediately like Craw..oh no, he waste time of the clock. Sometimes upwards of 15-20 seconds, just dribbling..the thing is..HE WAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING THIS!! But I can't remember the last time Joe has ever gotten this much hate...whats going on?

Its not hate its reality; its this team maturing and becoming better together. JJ was our only option for years. We can now win without JJ shooting 20 times a game. In fact he hurts us doing that on his bad nights now.

JJ just needs to chill out with the 20 shots taken and tone it down to 10 to 15 when he is in a slump. We can now win if he only scores 10 to 15 points; and we can do it consistently as long as he shares the ball.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

Its not hate its reality; its this team maturing and becoming better together. JJ was our only option for years. We can now win without JJ shooting 20 times a game. In fact he hurts us doing that on his bad nights now.

JJ just needs to chill out with the 20 shots taken and tone it down to 10 to 15 when he is in a slump. We can now win if he only scores 10 to 15 points; and we can do it consistently as long as he shares the ball.

Or maybe, just maybe, Woody needs to implement a system that doesn't call for ISO-Joe or ISO-Jamal (or ISO-Lue or ISO-Flip in the days of yore) to be run every third possession.

Oh wait, I forgot. That won't happen. So let's just blame JJ for Woody's inability to implement/explain/get his team to buy into an offensive system that looks any different from the one he had in place when the team went 13-69. JJ isn't as good as LeBron but the one-on-one isolation focus of Woodson's system let's him play like he is. Did any other leading scorer for a title winning team ever play in a team without a system that went beyond "isolate, go one-on-one, and see what happens?" Nope. But let's blame JJ for Woody's system anyway. Yeah, let's do that. That makes sense.

Edited December 1, 2009 by niremetal

[jy23]

Ever Since Joe has been here, he has been doing the same thing. Dribble for the entire shot clock, and try to make something happen. He is basically a chucker..but he doesn't shoot immediately like Craw..oh no, he waste time of the clock. Sometimes upwards of 15-20 seconds, just dribbling..the thing is..HE WAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING THIS!! But I can't remember the last time Joe has ever gotten this much hate...whats going on?

Weren't you the one that said.....and I quote......"3.Joe Johnson IS NOT worth 14 Million..can you say Larry Hughes?"

Were u bored and just felt like typing something? :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

[Atlantaholic]

I don't care two craps about whose fault it is. But having Joe Johnson dribble out the clock and take a shot over three defenders over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over needs to stop.

[Buzzard]

Or maybe, just maybe, Woody needs to implement a system that doesn't call for ISO-Joe or ISO-Jamal (or ISO-Lue or ISO-Flip in the days of yore) to be run every third possession.

Oh wait, I forgot. That won't happen. So let's just blame JJ for Woody's inability to implement/explain/get his team to buy into an offensive system that looks any different from the one he had in place when the team went 13-69. JJ isn't as good as LeBron but the one-on-one isolation focus of Woodson's system let's him play like he is. Did any other leading scorer for a title winning team ever play in a team without a system that went beyond "isolate, go one-on-one, and see what happens?" Nope. But let's blame JJ for Woody's system anyway. Yeah, let's do that. That makes sense.

Things are so black and white to you. If I say something bad about JJ, it means I like Woodsons' offense or something. This is a JJ thread so I am talking about JJ. I do think the responsibility is pretty even, so lets blame 50% of JJ's shots taken on him and 50% on Woody.

JJ is a grown man and does not have to shoot everytime he gets the ball; nor does Woody have to give JJ the ball so much. So if JJ takes 25% less shots by his own choice and Woody calls JJs number 25% less we will have him down to about ten shots on a bad night. You happy now? I am :help wanted3:

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

Things are so black and white to you. If I say something bad about JJ, it means I like Woodsons' offense or something. This is a JJ thread so I am talking about JJ. I do think the responsibility is pretty even, so lets blame 50% of JJ's shots taken on him and 50% on Woody.

JJ is a grown man and does not have to shoot everytime he gets the ball; nor does Woody have to give JJ the ball so much. You happy now? I am :help wanted3:

You see, that sounds nice. Except that JJ doesn't shoot every time he gets the ball. He doesn't even shoot most of the time he gets the ball. Does he still shoot too much? Yes. But so did Paul Pierce with Jim O'Brien. Boston fans were screaming that Pierce was a selfish player. Then Doc came to town and Pierce's shot attempts suddenly went down and his shooting percentage went up - and that was 3 years before KG and Ray came to town. No one who watched JJ when he played in Phoenix will say JJ was a selfish player or a "natural" ballhog. Hell, D'Antoni himself praised his unselfishness even after JJ left Phoenix, and no one was calling JJ a ballhog during his first few months with the Hawks (when the D'Antoni system was still engrained in his mind). It wasn't until after Harrington left that the ISO-Joe era began in earnest (although people were bitching about ISO-Lue even before that).

And even if you don't believe me about JJ, what about Crawford? He's a grown man too, isn't he? So when he came to town talking like a distributor and then Woody told him publicly and privately that he wanted him instead to be the league's leading scorer off the bench. And whaddya know - Crawford's assists have actually gone way, way down compared with past years. And it's not like he and JJ were even the only ones. I'm sure you remember people complaining about Lue pounding the ball and complaining about Flip being a chucker.

If it were just JJ, I would blame JJ. But this is a recurring theme among guards in Woodson's offense. Hell, it's a recurring theme in Woody's offense in general (remember Bibby's "if you don't want Josh to shoot from there, then don't put him there" comment during the playoffs?). The bottom line is this: It's the coach's job to get his players to play the way they should. Clearly, Woody is not doing that because the Hawks' inconsistency and tendency to slip into indifference on the boards and ISO offense continues, and the problem is not isolated to JJ (no pun intended). So I have a tough time buying into the idea that JJ is somehow equally at fault.

Edited December 1, 2009 by niremetal

[Crank]

What has happened in the past is irrelevant . The fact remains that this team is the most talented team that Joe has played on in ATL . Do people really think so little of Joe that they feel he is not smart enough to even think for himself when in pertains to the best interests of the team ? Do people really think that Woody wants Joe to shoot regardless of if he is not making them this year when other guys are making shots ?

The entire point of the isolation offense is to break your man down and if you draw an extra defender you make the pass.Joe has not done that and he has no one to blame for that but himself . The real question becomes is does Joe want his stats to get what he thinks is more money as a result or does he want to advance further in the playoffs ? This type of situation to me speaks about whether or not Joe can take another step and become a franchise player who deserves every penny he seeks or is Joe just a good player who has taken the team as far as he can take them.

Is the team outgrowing Joe ?

[RedDawg#8]

its annoying because the few times we run set plays, it usually leads to good things. prime example, at the end of close games when we draw up an inbounds play, if the shot doesnt fall there usually players in position for rebounds and putbacks because everybody on the floor knows where the ball is and where its going. we rely too much on one player free-styling and the other players dont know whats about to happen with the ball so those possesions become wasted if the iso player isnt succesful. we have the talent and shooters to design plays to get guys open and knock down shots, we just lack the imagination/effort from the staff

[Plainview1981]

Ever Since Joe has been here, he has been doing the same thing. Dribble for the entire shot clock, and try to make something happen. He is basically a chucker..but he doesn't shoot immediately like Craw..oh no, he waste time of the clock. Sometimes upwards of 15-20 seconds, just dribbling..the thing is..HE WAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING THIS!! But I can't remember the last time Joe has ever gotten this much hate...whats going on?

I don't know.... Could it be that he:

-Shoots a low percentage

-Doesn't play with fire

-Plays one on one ball

-Defends Mike Woodson

[Atlantaholic]

You see, that sounds nice. Except that JJ doesn't shoot every time he gets the ball. He doesn't even shoot most of the time he gets the ball. Does he still shoot too much? Yes. But so did Paul Pierce with Jim O'Brien. Boston fans were screaming that Pierce was a selfish player. Then Doc came to town and Pierce's shot attempts suddenly went down and his shooting percentage went up - and that was 3 years before KG and Ray came to town. No one who watched JJ when he played in Phoenix will say JJ was a selfish player or a "natural" ballhog. Hell, D'Antoni himself praised his unselfishness even after JJ left Phoenix, and no one was calling JJ a ballhog during his first few months with the Hawks (when the D'Antoni system was still engrained in his mind). It wasn't until after Harrington left that the ISO-Joe era began in earnest (although people were bitching about ISO-Lue even before that).

And even if you don't believe me about JJ, what about Crawford? He's a grown man too, isn't he? So when he came to town talking like a distributor and then Woody told him publicly and privately that he wanted him instead to be the league's leading scorer off the bench. And whaddya know - Crawford's assists have actually gone way, way down compared with past years. And it's not like he and JJ were even the only ones. I'm sure you remember people complaining about Lue pounding the ball and complaining about Flip being a chucker.

If it were just JJ, I would blame JJ. But this is a recurring theme among guards in Woodson's offense. Hell, it's a recurring theme in Woody's offense in general (remember Bibby's "if you don't want Josh to shoot from there, then don't put him there" comment during the playoffs?). The bottom line is this: It's the coach's job to get his players to play the way they should. Clearly, Woody is not doing that because the Hawks' inconsistency and tendency to slip into indifference on the boards and ISO offense continues, and the problem is not hisolated to JJ (no pun intended). So I have a tough time buying into the idea that JJ is somehow equally at fault.

I don't necessarily disagree with you completely, but citing Crawford's play as proof of Woodson's gameplan is not a solid point. Despite anything Crawford might have said throughout every single one of his 10 seasons in the league he has played the EXACT SAME WAY he is playing this year. Really. The exact same way. Also, as Buzzard stated, just because we run ISO's does not mean that JJ is forbidden to pass the ball. ISO is about breaking down the defense to score AND passing it to the open man when the double comes. JJ has decided to not pass this year. Look at his assist totals... They are at an all time low (with the Hawks) despite us having a better offense than at any time since he arrived here. Clearly, he is hogging the ball. Probably playing for a fat new contract no doubt.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[tbhawksfan]

First replace Woodson immediately. See what the team does with a movement scheme and evaluate trades (JJ ?) before the deadline.

I think JJ should've taken the 4@$60M the Hawks offered. I hate iso-ball, even if it's Kobe or James. If Woodson is too limited to see it's not working, JJ should. The Hawks are going down the same path as the last two seasons; win big early, get challenged, fall apart because iso-style play divides the team.

We still need a talented BIG C.

[spotatl]

Never have so many fans complained about their team having a top 4 offense in the league before.

[coachx]

Ever Since Joe has been here, he has been doing the same thing. Dribble for the entire shot clock, and try to make something happen. He is basically a chucker..but he doesn't shoot immediately like Craw..oh no, he waste time of the clock. Sometimes upwards of 15-20 seconds, just dribbling..the thing is..HE WAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING THIS!! But I can't remember the last time Joe has ever gotten this much hate...whats going on?

You just joined the site in June................you just have not been around to hear us complain about "Iso Joe" until this season.

[AHF]

First replace Woodson immediately. See what the team does with a movement scheme and evaluate trades (JJ ?) before the deadline.

I think JJ should've taken the 4@$60M the Hawks offered. I hate iso-ball, even if it's Kobe or James. If Woodson is too limited to see it's not working, JJ should. The Hawks are going down the same path as the last two seasons; win big early, get challenged, fall apart because iso-style play divides the team.

We still need a talented BIG C.

Don't replace Woody. The team is excellent this season and we need to put ourselves in the best position to succeed in the playoffs which means that a disruption at coach and new offensive system instituted during mid-season would likely be a disaster.

JJ could only get 4 years last offseason. This offseason he can get 6. Why rush into a 4 year deal when by the end of year 4 you won't be able to get the money you could get in a 5th and/or 6th year of a contract this offseason?

Nearly every team in the league needs a talented BIG C. Very few have that option. We need to do the best with what we have and if a talented big becomes available we can talk trade. (How often is that the case, though?)

[Atlantaholic]

Never have so many fans complained about their team having a top 4 offense in the league before.

Yeah. We'll see where we end up in April. Sure haven't looked like a top ten offense the last four games that's for sure.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[spotatl]

The team was a top 10 offense last season and people were complaining just as much. I think that people simply have impossible expectations if they are complaining about the offense and the only teams who have been better this season are Toronto, Denver, and Phoenix.

[Buzzard]

Yeah. We'll see where we end up in April. Sure haven't looked like a top ten offense the last four games that's for sure.

When the jumpers fall we are a top five offense; when they dont we look like a top fifteen to twenty offense. Woody continues to stay pat on bad shooting nights, it will level out and we will fall out of the top ten. With a defense is as porous as ours, we cannot afford to fall out of the top five in offense; much less the top ten.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[spotatl]

Buzzard- do you really think the Hawks have the talent where they SHOULD be a top 5 offense?

[Buzzard]

Buzzard- do you really think the Hawks have the talent where they SHOULD be a top 5 offense?

Yes I do; when the jumpers are falling. Woody's offense is dependant on jumpers and guards; our guards when hot can score as well as any trio in the league. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Go look at their career averages and find me three guards on one team with better career averages than JJ, Bibby, and Crawford. Unfortunately when they are not hot we score like a top fifteen to twenty offense.