ISO JOE wins the game

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Had to grind it out, but the Captain wouldn't let us lose. Gritty tough win by this team tonight, with a brilliant performance by JJ . . ISO JJ that is. Joe Smith had some huge baskets and defensive plays down the stretch. Good for him. We definitely need someone else on this bench that we can depend on.

ISO JJ is preparing him for how he'll have to score in the playoffs. All of your superstar players have to be great ISO players during that time of year. Team ball is great, but great ISO players win championships.

[Supporter]

Are you really expecting Joe to play like this for the whole playoffs?

[WraithSentinel]

As long as the other team is shooting just as bad as us. Then ISO Joe has a chance of doing well. JJ stepped up tonight and props to him for that.

[HAWKSFAN89]

Are you really expecting Joe to play like this for the whole playoffs?

If he wants any where near the kind of salary he is asking for, he f***ing better.

[DjGrizz]

88 minutes back to back nights is not good. On the road it's understandable, but vs the Knicks at home, bad move. Teague should have got more minutes.

Nice win though.

[TheFormerJJBacker]

hawksquawk will be quiet tonight...

It only seems to get jumping when Joe throws up some of those 6/18 and 5/19 nights. He gets called a chucker, etc.

Funny, because another player in our division has had these nights:

6/17

6/19

6/18

6/22

6/19

And shot a combined 42% in November... and has followed that up with a 40% clip thus far in December.

I'm guessing non of that teams' boards trash that player.

Oh - and we beat that player last year in the Playoffs. And Joe out-played him in Game 7 (despite Joe being labeled a post-season bust).

Funny - When Joe came here - the Hawks had won 13 games the prior season. All they've done is get better and better as a team has continued to play together.

The franchises fondest memories this decade? Joe's 20-point 4th quarter against the eventual NBA champ-Celtics in Game 4. Joe's Game 7 vs. the Heat.

He averaged 20, 4 and 4 vs. the Celtics in 07/08

He averaged 17, 5 and 4 with 2 steals in May of last year (final two Heat games and all of the Cavs games)

You people complain that he's not a #1 option - he just outplayed Dirk. You think Mavs fans hate on Dirk as much as Hawks fans hate on Joe?

He's 12th in the league in PPG (before tonight's 31... so that might change up to 11th)... of those 12 players - Joe takes the 3rd least amount of shots.

He has a better shooting percentage (despite being such a chucker) than:

Arenas

Jennings

Granger

and DWade

He has a better Assist to Turnover ratio than:

Monta Ellis

D Rose

D Wade

B Jennings

Arenas

Westbrook

Mo Williams

Kobe Bryant

Paul Pierce

He averages the same boards as Kobe and more boards than:

D Wade

B Roy

I come on this board once a few months or so to try and give peeps a decent picture of what's going on... only a few of you typically listen. I've said if for a few years now:

Joe's not LeBron. He's not Kobe. He's not some mega-watt super-duper star. He's a super-star. A steady all-star...

speaking of which. I've never been around fans of a team that say after one of their own gets selected for an all-star team, "he doesn't deserve to be there." What a pathetic bunch of fans some of you are. I'm not saying you have to be all rah-rah all the time... but for a franchise that's basically been a joke for over a decade... you'd figure some of ya'll would embrace some love.

I agree you'd like to see Joe be more consistent on a night to night basis. The reason he isn't? Cause he's not some ridiculous athlete. His game is not above the rim. DWade, Melo, Bron, etc. can average what they do because when their jumper's off (as illustrated above - D-Wade has had more stinkers this year than Joe has)... their ability to drive to the rim and get bailed out on calls allows them to pad the stats by shooting 12 of 14 from the line. Joe doesn't get that padding. So if he's 5/19... he's not gonna score 20... he just doesn't get to the line that much. He's just not an above the rim player. He's actually pretty similar to Ray Allen in that regard. He's a better defender and has has a bit more ball-handling and passing skills than Ray... Ray's a purer shooter and has a much quicker release. But Ray never really got to the line a lot either. Ray's been getting max money now for about 8 or 9 seasons. Ray's best year on a PPG basis? 06/07 - Seattle's record that year? 31-51 (and Ray was 31).

So yeah... board will be quiet. This post won't get a response..... because it's more fun for people like Hotlanta, etc... to wait out the good Joe games or simply type "about time" on a positive post... and then go hog wild after joe throws up a stinker and rant and rave about how much of a non-superstar Joe is.

Honestly, I almost wish the Hotlanta's of the world could have Joe just leave and watch the Hawks stumble to find a replacement for him.. and watch the team regress while Joe flourishes playing somewhere else. I have a sneaking suspicion that when the Hawks are losing 50 and 60 games again - a lot of these Joe naysayers won't be around Hawksquawk anymore. And for people on the fence... you'll be longing for the day that you had a top 20-25 player in the NBA on your team.

Some other random things I love -

Tonight -we got 2 O rebounds on a possession late in the 3rd quarter (I wanna say it was around the 4:30 mark remaining)... Joe didn't touch the ball the whole possession. The other Hawks on the floor combined to go 0-3, and the possession got us nothing despite the o rebounds. I know the ISO Joe offense can get stagnant. I know watching Joe pound the rock against the floor for 20 seconds can get old sometimes... but you realize he's our best player on offense, right? You realize the most good things happen when he has the ball, right? You'll typically either get him going for a score (not terrible at doing it) or him setting up a teammate (not terrible at that either). And you've watched other basketball teams play right? It's not like the ISO JJ is some ATL-only phenomenon. Watch a Cavs possession in the 4th quarter. Or a Heat possession. Or a Jazz posession. Or a Blazers possession. Or a Mavs possession. I could go on and on. Typically most teams give the ball to their best player and say "go do something." NBA coaches, for the most part, are over-rated. There are a few exceptions... but for the most part - whichever team has better players wins... except when a team is flat, disinterested, off, whatever. So keep whining about ISO JJ... but honestly I'm not sure how many other NBA games you've watched. Any team with an all-star type player gives the ball to that all-star type player and says "go do something."

I saw someone complaining that we've lost to stinky teams. Didn't read the post because it was a waste of time.

Cavs losses: Toronto, Chicago, Washington (by 17), Charlotte

Celtics losses: Indiana

Magic losses: Detroit, Oklahoma City (by almost 30)

Lakers losses: Dallas (who we just beat), Houston... oh and the Lakers have played 4 road games.

Phoenix losses: New Orleans (without Chris Paul... just like us), Knicks (by 27)

again - I could keep going... but the point is - it's an 82 game season. There are ebbs and flows. You don't win every game you should win on paper. Guys get tired, bored, distracted, disinterested, lazy, etc. It happens. All of us have plenty of off days at work. It's a grind. Sometimes you show up and lay an egg... ah well... get em next time. So we lost to the Knicks. But we've won 2 of our last three. We're 6-4 on the road. We're winning 70% of our games. Don't sweat the little stuff.

I dunno... It feels like I write the same post every year... I guess I haven't forgotten what 13 wins in a whole season feels like. Maybe some of you folks weren't paying attention when it sucked; so you can't appreciate the team now. I dunno. I'm happy seeing progression. I'm content with Joe Johnson. I think he's good. I watch enough other games to have seen many a DWade, Kobe, Durant, etc. suck-fest to know guys (no matter how good) have off games or weeks... I just try and keep it all in perspective.

Over the past few years on 12/5 here's where we stood:

08/09 - 12-6 - Conference Semi's (same crew, minus afro power)

07/08 - 7-10 - Playoffs (the modern era lol... Joe, the two Joshes, Bibby, Marvin and Horford's rookie year)

06/07 - 7-9 (Joe, the two Joshes, and Marvin)

05/06 - 2-14 (Joe Johnson's first year here, Al Harrington, and the two Joshes)

04/05 - 2-14 (Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Tyronn Lue and the two Joshes as rookies were our studs)

03/04 - 6-14 (Stephen Jackson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

02/03 - 9-10 (Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

So if you people wanna argue over if Joe's a super star or not... or what we should do with him this offseason, etc. - go right ahead. If you wanna jump on hawksquawk to complain about Joe anytime he has an off night - I guess we need a thread of "stars that stunk tonight." I'll log on every night and go over every all-stars bad shooting performance so we can keep Joe's 15 stinkers a year in perspective. I dunno - I guess I'm just happy to have a guy the whole NBA community recognizes as a super-star around here. But that's right - you all know more than beat writers, announcers, gms, coaches and NBA players (past and present). I got it now. Again - I know there's plenty of other teams out there that want the man.

And lastly, many of you know I actually live in phoenix... happened to flip to the suns game tonight during a break in the hawks game. Saw Kevin Martin in a suit. You people realize he's going to be 27 in February, right? Joe's 28. I've seen Martin's name brought up as a trade idea on here.... You know the concept of "injury prone," right? Here's his games (note: you might not be able to tell, but the NBA season is 82 games long):

04/05 - 45

05/06 - 72

06/07 - 80

07/08 - 61

08/09 - 51

09/10 - 5

Kevin Martin has played in 314 career games over 5.25 NBA seasons (so he's played 314 out of a possible 428 games). And you want to talk about chucking? This season he's averaging 30 a game (over his 5 games played) - yet he's taking 22 shots a game and shooting 42%. Last year he averaged 24.6 ppg on 42%. Kevin Martin does get the free-throw line a lot... but I'm guessing that might stop a bit... because clearly his body can't take the beating. So I'm not sure how Kevin Martin is someone you want to pay max money to, but Joe isn't.

Anyhew - this kinda got rambly... and I apologize for that... but again... a bunch of peeps on this board are missing some perspective.

Big ups to northcyde... he and I think alike... yet he has waaaaay more patience than me and actually posts good "keep it in perspective" posts all the time... but like me... those threads seem to end or get off topic and nobody actually has much of a comback to what he says other than "great post" or "that's the most logical thing I've read" or "I agree with northcyde."

Keep it up northcyde... maybe someday they'll make you a mod or give you your own wing on hawksquawk. Whether it's espn.com, ajc.com or here - you're always the guy who's post I enjoy the most... because they're exactly what I'm thinking. I jut don't know how you handle all the knee-jerk jerks out there...

M

[Plainview1981]

Joe has had more bad playoff games than good ones... Outside of his 5 mins of fame in Game 4 he didn't play that well against Boston and played poorly overall in the playoffs last year. In all likely hood, he will do it again this year. This good shooting performances are RARE.

I agree you'd like to see Joe be more consistent on a night to night basis. The reason he isn't? Cause he's not some ridiculous athlete. His game is not above the rim. DWade, Melo, Bron, etc. can average what they do because when their jumper's off (as illustrated above - D-Wade has had more stinkers this year than Joe has)... their ability to drive to the rim and get bailed out on calls allows them to pad the stats by shooting 12 of 14 from the line. Joe doesn't get that padding. So if he's 5/19... he's not gonna score 20... he just doesn't get to the line that much. He's just not an above the rim player.[/quote

He wants superstar money and he wants to be the man so that type of criticism comes along with it. That's how it is. He's played better than D-wade in a 20 game stretch with more talent... Give the man a cigar. Wait.... Wade has a ring.... What does JJ have? Wade has played poorly this year and I have no idea why... I haven't been watching Heat games so I don't know.

The difference between the Celtics, Cavs, Magic and Lakers is that those teams have PROVEN that they can be a title contender in the playoffs. This team has NOT. So that's why this team gets doubted.

There is no doubt that JJ has been the biggest part of winning more games until this season (Josh has been the better player this season) but he wants the superstar payday (He left a good contract on the table) so that type of play is what gets expected of you when you want the big payday. Is it fair? If JJ's demands are superstar demands he should play like a superstar.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[TheFormerJJBacker]

If he wants any where near the kind of salary he is asking for, he f***ing better.

Another thing that irritates me - this concept of "why does he think he's worth that much?"

Here's why Hawksfan89 (and apparently Hotlanta):

in 09/10:

Tracy McGrady is making $23,239,561

Jermaine O'Neal is making $22,995,000

Shaquille O'Neal is making $20,000,000

Dirk Nowitzki is making $19,795,714 (Didn't Joe just out-play him?)

Ray Allen is making $19,766,860

Rashard Lewis is making $18,876,000

Michael Red is making $17,040,000

Andrei Kirilenko is making $16,451,250

Vince Carter is making $16,300,000

Gilbert Arenas is making $16,192,080

Zach Randolph is making $16,000,000

Kenyon Martin is making $15,363,636

Elton Brand is making $14,858,471

Peja Stojakovic is making $14,202,000

Larry Hughes is making $13,655,268

Cigarettes are $7 a pack nowadays. When I smoked in College I could get a carton for $18.56 (including tax). Plenty of people still smoke. If the market rate for cigarettes is $7 a pack... that's what people will pay. Sure there will be a few that use the cost as a reason to quit... but if you've got the money to spend - you'll spend it.

Same goes for basketball players. Is anybody other than LeBron, Kobe, and a handful of other "super-duper stars" worth "max" money? Certainly not. But each team has an amount they can spend... and a fanbase that will get pissed if they don't spend the money... so if you miss out on the one or two or three super-duper stars.. you over-pay super stars and all-stars to appease a fan base and make it look like you're trying. The Cavs are paying Shaq $20 million to get in the way this season. His contract expires at the end of the year. The Cavs will be able to shed $5 million off of their payroll next season by letting Shaq walk... use that $5 million to start LeBron off at $18 million per and pay Joe 5 years and $75 million... and BREAK EVEN. Do you think if the Cavs miss out on DWade or Bosh... they won't give Joe a call? They could slide him in at the 2 and have Anthony Parker be the back-up 2, Delonte (if he's still around) be the back-up PG...

You don't think Houston would be interested in bringing in Joe to replace TMAC and SAVE over $8 million over what they're playing out in payroll this year? TMAC's deal ends after this season... Houston would be thrilled to have Joe, Ariza, Yao, etc.

If the Heat miss out on LeBron and Bosh - you don't think they'd like to have Joe for almost $8 million less than they're paying Jermaine O'Neal this season? Or have Joe for $6 million more than what they're paying Quentin Richardson this season?

You don't think the Bucks are hoping Redd doesn't pick up his player option for $18 million next season and use that money to sign Joe to a 5 year deal starting at $15 per and using the other $3 on another player? The Bucks could have Joe and a $3 million per year player for what they're going to have to pay Redd next season.

You don't think Boston might be interested in bringing Joe back (considering they drafted him in 01) to replace Ray Allen in the starting line-up (and then use the extra almost $5 million) they'll have in surplus and bring Ray back for a 6th man role?

Dallas could decline team option for Josh Howard and let Gooden leave... and use their combined salaries to pay Joe a contract starting at $15 million

Heck - the Warriors have $16 million locked up this year in Vlad Radmanovic, Speedy Claxton and Raja Bell. If Vlad declines his player option next year - you don't think they'd be happy to have Joe for $15 million?

Minnesota has $20,576,080 wrapped up in Mark Blount, Brian Cardinal, and Antonio Daniels this season. They're all off the books next season. The Wolves could drop payroll and give Joe 5 yrs and $75 million.

If the Nets miss out on LeBron, Bosh, Wade, etc. - they've got $26,452,000 wrapped into Bobby Simmons, Tony Battie, Rafer Alston, and Trenton Hassell. They'll be able to sign Joe at $15 and another player at $11.452 a year and be the same financially.

Do I really need to continue?

Again - a lot of you have (apparently) no concept of what's going on in other NBA cities... you think Joe's nuts for turning down what he did... but you can't just look at the Hawks without considering the rest of the league.

Is Joe a max player? No. He's not LeBron or Kobe or DWade. But look at my examples above... Signing Joe to a 5 year deal starting at $15 million per is a better use of any of those teams money than what they've got going on this year... and after Bron, Wade, etc. are off the market - there's going to be a lot of teams with a lot of money... and desperate to show their fanbase they want to win. Trotting out a 4-time all-star who's still got 6 to 7 years of "one of the top shooting guards in our conference" left in him won't be a bad consolation prize.

So keep making your "he's not worth the money" argument... but keep in mind... if you lose Joe... in all liklihood, you'll be replacing him with one of the names above. We're not going to be able to afford the Brons, DWades, Amares, Bosh's of the world... so anything we do will be a step down. And despite the fact you think Joe is or will be over-paid... I think Minnesota, New Jeresey, Milwaukee, Houston, etc... all would beg to differ.

But again - what do all these writers, gms, coaches and former players know?

m

Edited December 6, 2009 by JJBacker

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Joe has had more bad playoff games than good ones... Outside of his 5 mins of fame in Game 4 he didn't play that well against Boston and played poorly overall in the playoffs last year. In all likely hood, he will do it again this year. This good shooting performances are RARE.

on (Josh has been the better player this season) but he wants the superstar payday (He left a good contract on the table) so that type of play is what gets expected of you when you want the big payday. Is it fair? If JJ's demands are superstar demands he should play like a superstar.

I dunno, Hotlanta... 20, 4, and 4 against the Celts that season thru 7 games despite having pretty much the entire defense focused on stopping him isn't too bad. He was OK in Game 1; pretty pathetic in Game 2 (as was the entire team); good (and clutch I might add) in both games 3 and 4; a lone bright spot in game 5 (a blowout back in Boston); a non-factor in Game 6; and the only bright spot in the first quarter of the blowout in game 7.

Keep in mind - LeBron James faced the Celtics in the following series and shot 35.5% from the field in that series (Joe shot 40.9%), including Bron going 9/39 from 3 (Joe was 16/36). LeBron only had 2 games in the entire series in which he shot at or above 40%; Joe doubled that with 4. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than LeBron that postseason, as well. So yes - while Joe's numbers don't look all that hot for the series - you need to put things in context.

In the Finals that year - Kobe Bryant shot 40.5% against the Celtics (lower than Joe). He too, only had two games out of 6 in which he shot at or above 40%. He was 9/28 from behind the arc. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than Kobe, too. Kobe Bryant is arguably the best player in the NBA and he averaged 26, 5, and 5 against the Celtics and his team lost in 6 games.

So lemme get this straight - the Hawks weren't as good as a team as the Cavs nor the Lakers that season. Joe's not as good as LeBron nor Kobe.... yet against the same opponent:

Joe has a higher FG %, a higher 3-PT %, a higher assist:turnover ratio and had the same amount of games shooting at or above 40% as Kobe AND LeBron COMBINED. Joe had 40% or above in 4 games out of 7. Kobe and LeBron had 4 total out of 13?

Yet he wasn't that good that postseason? I dunno... I'd say he did just as well for himself or was just as efficient if not more on a stinkier team than either Kobe or LeBron.

Again hater-nation - you've got to keep things in perspective! Were Joe's numbers vs. the Celtics in 07/08 great if you just look at em? No. But when you stack em up against some other players vs. the Celtics - he did pretty well for himself.

M

PS - Superstar money is dictated by market... not if you're actually a superstar. If the Bucks are gonna spend $18 million on Michael Redd next year - you can bet they'd much rather be spending $15 million on Joe. Whether he's worth it in your eyes or not.

Edited December 6, 2009 by JJBacker

[Buzzard]

Had to grind it out, but the Captain wouldn't let us lose. Gritty tough win by this team tonight, with a brilliant performance by JJ . . ISO JJ that is. Joe Smith had some huge baskets and defensive plays down the stretch. Good for him. We definitely need someone else on this bench that we can depend on.

ISO JJ is preparing him for how he'll have to score in the playoffs. All of your superstar players have to be great ISO players during that time of year. Team ball is great, but great ISO players win championships.

I know. Woody is really a genius and most of us here are just to stupid to see it. We don't lose games to lottery teams because of to many ISOs, 3s being taken when they are not falling, not enough passes being made to open players, and to many dumb *ss switches on defense. We lose those games because our team really sucks and Woody is a genius. We would probably still be in the lottery if not for Woody.....SARCASM

Edited December 6, 2009 by Buzzard

[Plainview1981]

I dunno, Hotlanta... 20, 4, and 4 against the Celts that season thru 7 games despite having pretty much the entire defense focused on stopping him isn't too bad. He was OK in Game 1; pretty pathetic in Game 2 (as was the entire team); good (and clutch I might add) in both games 3 and 4; a lone bright spot in game 5 (a blowout back in Boston); a non-factor in Game 6; and the only bright spot in the first quarter of the blowout in game 7.

He's still guarded by a guy like Ray Allen who isn't even a good defensive player. Ask celtic fans. At best it was an average series. It was below his regular season numbers. He sure didn't inspire his teammates to play better in Boston.

He shot 7-22 in game one... That's not ok. If you have the ball in your hands all the time you will collect some assist. In game 3 he shot 7-18. He shot 29% in game 7... He wasn't that much of a bright spot. Overall, during the series he had a couple of spurts (His 3 or 4 minute offense ) in the series, but over he was not very good.

Keep in mind - LeBron James faced the Celtics in the following series and shot 35.5% from the field in that series (Joe shot 40.9%), including Bron going 9/39 from 3 (Joe was 16/36). LeBron only had 2 games in the entire series in which he shot at or above 40%; Joe doubled that with 4. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than LeBron that postseason, as well. So yes - while Joe's numbers don't look all that hot for the series - you need to put things in context.

The Celtics improved on both ends of the court as the playoffs went along. The Boston team that Cleveland played was playing better than the Boston team that the Hawks played.

In the Finals that year - Kobe Bryant shot 40.5% against the Celtics (lower than Joe).

Spitting hairs don't you think?

He too, only had two games out of 6 in which he shot at or above 40%. He was 9/28 from behind the arc. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than Kobe, too. Kobe Bryant is arguably the best player in the NBA and he averaged 26, 5, and 5 against the Celtics and his team lost in 6 games.

Do you think Boston took the Hawks as seriously as they took LA? I never got the feeling that they truly even respected the Hawks. I think they blew them out the first two games and then thought the series was going to be a cake walk. That's what I think happened. But Boston knows that Detroit and Cleveland had both been to the finals.....

So lemme get this straight - the Hawks weren't as good as a team as the Cavs nor the Lakers that season. Joe's not as good as LeBron nor Kobe.... yet against the same opponent:

Joe has a higher FG %, a higher 3-PT %, a higher assist:turnover ratio and had the same amount of games shooting at or above 40% as Kobe AND LeBron COMBINED. Joe had 40% or above in 4 games out of 7. Kobe and LeBron had 4 total out of 13?

A Higher FG%? As I said, that's basically spitting hairs.

Yet he wasn't that good that postseason? I dunno... I'd say he did just as well for himself or was just as efficient if not more on a stinkier team than either Kobe or LeBron.

If Boston was playing as well as they did against LA the Hawks wouldn't have won one game. They were still new to each other and they played better as the playoffs progressed that post season.

Where was Joe when the Cavs were slapping the Hawks around the court last year? Where was the great JJ then?

PS - Superstar money is dictated by market... not if you're actually a superstar. If the Bucks are gonna spend $18 million on Michael Redd next year - you can bet they'd much rather be spending $15 million on Joe. Whether he's worth it in your eyes or not.

If JJ wants superstar money he should play like one. You can't expect him to get superstar money and have lower expectations from him than you have for Lebron James or Kobe. Sorry, that just doesn't work. Some fans want to cuddle these players far too much. Fanboy behavior makes me sick. I don't care about what GM wants to spend what and to whom. I decide for himself if I think the player is worth the money that they're getting paid. If Not, their overpaid to me. The foolishness of NBA GM's don't decide my opinion. Look at Philly with Elton Brand.... I'm laughing at the them for spending 15 million a year on a 2nd tier PF that wasn't even healthy when they signed him. And now they want rid of his contract. That's what they get for being stupid.

If JJ is not as good as Kobe and Lebron... He shouldn't get paid like them.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

I dunno, Hotlanta... 20, 4, and 4 against the Celts that season thru 7 games despite having pretty much the entire defense focused on stopping him isn't too bad. He was OK in Game 1; pretty pathetic in Game 2 (as was the entire team); good (and clutch I might add) in both games 3 and 4; a lone bright spot in game 5 (a blowout back in Boston); a non-factor in Game 6; and the only bright spot in the first quarter of the blowout in game 7.

Keep in mind - LeBron James faced the Celtics in the following series and shot 35.5% from the field in that series (Joe shot 40.9%), including Bron going 9/39 from 3 (Joe was 16/36). LeBron only had 2 games in the entire series in which he shot at or above 40%; Joe doubled that with 4. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than LeBron that postseason, as well. So yes - while Joe's numbers don't look all that hot for the series - you need to put things in context.

In the Finals that year - Kobe Bryant shot 40.5% against the Celtics (lower than Joe). He too, only had two games out of 6 in which he shot at or above 40%. He was 9/28 from behind the arc. Joe had a higher assist to turnover ratio than Kobe, too. Kobe Bryant is arguably the best player in the NBA and he averaged 26, 5, and 5 against the Celtics and his team lost in 6 games.

So lemme get this straight - the Hawks weren't as good as a team as the Cavs nor the Lakers that season. Joe's not as good as LeBron nor Kobe.... yet against the same opponent:

Joe has a higher FG %, a higher 3-PT %, a higher assist:turnover ratio and had the same amount of games shooting at or above 40% as Kobe AND LeBron COMBINED. Joe had 40% or above in 4 games out of 7. Kobe and LeBron had 4 total out of 13?

Yet he wasn't that good that postseason? I dunno... I'd say he did just as well for himself or was just as efficient if not more on a stinkier team than either Kobe or LeBron.

Again hater-nation - you've got to keep things in perspective! Were Joe's numbers vs. the Celtics in 07/08 great if you just look at em? No. But when you stack em up against some other players vs. the Celtics - he did pretty well for himself.

M

PS - Superstar money is dictated by market... not if you're actually a superstar. If the Bucks are gonna spend $18 million on Michael Redd next year - you can bet they'd much rather be spending $15 million on Joe. Whether he's worth it in your eyes or not.

JJ had less turnovers because he took so many 3's. You also got to factor in that Kobe had played more series than JJ had. The Celtics were the 4th team Kobe had played against that postseason. I didn't say that JJ had a terrible playoffs... There was a lot on his shoulders, but that doesn't change that his play was average at best when you look at the series overall. Regardless, I'm more worried about how is playing now... And his play this season has been shotty this season. You can usually find away to manipulate things to fit your own agenda if you try, but I think most here agree that JJ's play this season hasn't been that good. One or two hot shooting nights doesn't change that. JJ's play is getting worse by the season now and that needs to be looked at before giving a contract extension.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[hawkman]

Hotlanta, you're out matched here. Just take the loss and fight another day. :laugh:

[Plainview1981]

Hotlanta, you're out matched here. Just take the loss and fight another day. :laugh:

Uh....no. All JJ in did in the series was have a couple of offensive spurts from behind the 3pt line. Nothing unlike we see now from him. He shot over 40% in 2 out of 7 games. That's not a good performance no matter how you try to spin it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1007&year=2008

Outside of games 3 and 4 he was shyt mostly. His shooting was even poor in game 3. I know there aren't many highlights for this team, but some of the folks here simply overblow his performance in the series.

The guy also said that Joe had 4 games in which he shot 40% or above and he only had 3 and one of those was the sorry 4-10 effort in game two.

There are some good arguments in there, but there is also some hair spitting to make it sound good. Saying JJ shot better at 40.9% compared to Kobe's 40.5% is hair spitting. JJ didn't turn the ball over against Boston because he spent most of the series shooting 3's. JJ attempted 33 ft's in 7 games while Kobe attempted 49 FT's in 6 games. If you're taking it to the whole against Boston you will have more turnovers.

Kobe scored more, averaged more assists, and got the FT line more while JJ took less FT's and had better shooting. I'll say that JJ/Kobe had a near draw overall, and JJ had a better series than Lebron. Lebron was not really good against Boston at all.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[TheFormerJJBacker]

He's still guarded by a guy like Ray Allen who isn't even a good defensive player. Ask celtic fans. At best it was an average series. It was below his regular season numbers. He sure didn't inspire his teammates to play better in Boston.

The Celtics improved on both ends of the court as the playoffs went along. The Boston team that Cleveland played was playing better than the Boston team that the Hawks played.

Spitting hairs don't you think?

Do you think Boston took the Hawks as seriously as they took LA? I never got the feeling that they truly even respected the Hawks. I think they blew them out the first two games and then thought the series was going to be a cake walk. That's what I think happened. But Boston knows that Detroit and Cleveland had both been to the finals.....

A Higher FG%? As I said, that's basically spitting hairs.

If Boston was playing as well as they did against LA the Hawks wouldn't have won one game. They were still new to each other and they played better as the playoffs progressed that post season.

Where was Joe when the Cavs were slapping the Hawks around the court last year? Where was the great JJ then?

If JJ wants superstar money he should play like one. You can't expect him to get superstar money and have lower expectations from him than you have for Lebron James or Kobe. Sorry, that just doesn't work. Some fans want to cuddle these players far too much. Fanboy behavior makes me sick. I don't care about what GM wants to spend what and to whom. I decide for himself if I think the player is worth the money that they're getting paid. If Not, their overpaid to me. The foolishness of NBA GM's don't decide my opinion. Look at Philly with Elton Brand.... I'm laughing at the them for spending 15 million a year on a 2nd tier PF that wasn't even healthy when they signed him. And now they want rid of his contract. That's what they get for being stupid.

As is the usual.... you're missing the point.

My point was - you claimed JJ didn't do much vs. the Celts. My point was "with respect to what other players better than JJ, did - he didn't do terrible." You keep saying "splitting hairs" - but you're making mine. JJ did pretty much what Kobe did vs. the Celtics. And we both know the Lakers of 07/08 were better than the Hawks. So with a "lesser supporting cast" JJ's Hawks lost in 7. Kobe's Lakers lost in 6. And Kobe was covered by Posey, Allen, and Pierce... same as Joe (although Joe mostly faced Posey and Allen).

Then you say "it's below his regular season numbers" - Same thing happened for LeBron and Kobe. Does that mean they didn't rise to the occasion? No... it means during the regular season you catch teams on second halves of back-to-backs... you catch em resting someone, etc... In a 7 game series, typically coaches will attempt to game-plan to take away what makes an opponent comfortable. A lot of times this means making things miserable for an opposing team's best player. LeBron wasn't immune to it. Kobe wasn't immune to it. Nor was Joe.

You talked about JJ getting his teammates to play better on the road. How many wins did the Cavs have in Boston that series? What about Kobe's Lakers? Didn't the Celtics beat the Lakers by almost 40 to close out the Finals? Didn't Kobe shoot 7 of 22 with one assist and 4 turnovers? (Note: the answer to the "how many winds did the Cavs have in Boston, etc.... was ZERO).

I do agree that that Celtics team hadn't played a playoff game before running into us in the first round. I also believe they thought they'd walk all over us... So I do agree that had we have faced the Celts further down the line we wouldn't have done as well as we did. That being said... If the Celts were firing at a maybe a 6 or 7 for us... and they were firing at a 8 for the Cavs... and a 10 by the finals.. wouldn't the opponents also be playing better, too?

You don't think the Cavs played better in the 2nd round than they did in the first? You don't think the Lakers were well oiled and respecting the Celts. We were a motley crue that won 37 games and were happy to be there... so while the Celts might have been playing at a 6 or 7... we were probably only a 6 or 7 opponent. You said if we would have played them down the road we would have lost worse... but if the Celts would have played the Cavs or Lakers in Round 1 - the Celtics likely would have lost... so I would actually say that due to our level of competition we did ok. Once again - you always fail to look at anything but the Hawks and how they did. You don't think of anything else. Each round the Celtics advanced they played better... but they also faced tougher opponents... so their level of play was pretty much equal to that of their opponents in all three cases - the Hawks, the Cavs and the Lakers. So this makes your impact that your trying to attribute to Kobe's stats or LeBron's stats a little negligible. Not entirely, though... because I do agree 100% that the Celts blew the Hawks out in the first 2 and figured they could set it on cruise control. The Hawks slapped em in the mouth, got a little momentum, etc...

Your whole post pretty much made my point for me, though. All I was attempting to show was despite JJ's numbers being 20, 4, and 4 (modest)... his counterparts posted similarly modest numbers vs. the Celtics that post-season, as well. I wasn't trying to say JJ is GOD or that he's better than LeBron and Kobe. I was attempting to show that he did about as well as Kobe or LeBron did (with less of a supporting cast, on a younger team, with virtually zero playoff experience). So while you want to say "he didn't do much outside of his 5 minutes" vs the Celtics... I would say he did just fine in 07/08 in playoffs.

And there's always a "yeah but" with you Hotlanta. You just like to be negative. You talk about rings with D-Wade. His FT parade and a meltdown by the Mavs got him a ring with Shaq. So in 05/06 he won a ring with Shaq. What has he done since?

06/07 - Swept in the 1st Rd vs. Chicago Bulls

07/08 - No playoffs (injured)

08/09 - Lost in 1st Rd vs. Atlanta Hawks

09/10 - 1 game over .500

If you want to try and say that the Heat don't have as much talent around DWade - their payroll is $10 million higher than ours - so they're spending money on something. Oh yeah - it's almost $23 million for Jermain O'Neal. Again - trying to make a point. You think at $15 million per, JJ is a rip. What's O'Neal at nearly $23? Bad contracts are a part of the NBA. Every NBA team is littered with them. And you can laugh that Philly spent a ton of money on Elton Brand... but at the time they were paying for a guaranteed 20/10 PF. His career has gone completely downhill since (a la TMAC)... but there's really no way to predict an injury. Look at the raw deal the Magic got on Grant Hill. Got one of the better players in the NBA... he was hurt his whole Magic career... has been fine since coming to Phoenix. There's no way to know. If Brand could have stayed healthy in Philly - he's still throwing up 20 and 10's and the deal makes sense. I laugh all the time at bad deals, too...

But the bottom line is Ray Allen and Michael Redd have both made more money since the summer of 05 than Joe Johnson. Larry Hughes signed a similar deal. It could be said that Joe and Ray have been pretty close to one another... with Joe being a superior investment for the Hawks than Redd has been for the Bucks or Hughes was for the Cavs/Bulls/Knicks. As all of them become (or have the option to become) free agents - Joe's going to get the best deal. Ray and Redd both signed 6 year, $90 million dollar extensions to stay with the Sonics and Bucks in 05. Joe will have been an all-star in 4 of his 5 seasons in Atlanta. The market didn't bat an eye when Redd and Allen signed their extensions 5 years ago... you think someone's gonna think the Hawks got jobbed if they offer Joe the same thing Redd and Allen got in 05?

This whole last paragraph is laughable:

"If JJ wants superstar money he should play like one. You can't expect him to get superstar money and have lower expectations from him than you have for Lebron James or Kobe. Sorry, that just doesn't work. Some fans want to cuddle these players far too much. Fanboy behavior makes me sick. I don't care about what GM wants to spend what and to whom. I decide for himself if I think the player is worth the money that they're getting paid. If Not, their overpaid to me. The foolishness of NBA GM's don't decide my opinion. Look at Philly with Elton Brand.... I'm laughing at the them for spending 15 million a year on a 2nd tier PF that wasn't even healthy when they signed him. And now they want rid of his contract. That's what they get for being stupid."

He does play like one. He's always among or around the top 10 in scoring. Every opposing team we play gameplans for him. He draws the other teams best perimeter defender. He typically needs to guard the opposing teams best player. And he didn't turn down "superstar money." Kobe isn't signing 4 year/ 60-some extensions. LeBron won't be getting a 4 year/$60 million offer from the Cavs. I'm willing to wager DWade gets something more than 4 years/$60 million this summer. You keep saying "superstar money."

Ben Gordon got $11 per

Hedo got $11 per

James is going to be getting 6 years and $133 million (or thereabouts) if he stays with Cavs. He'll get 5 years and $102 (or so) if he leaves. Hotlanta - that's over $20 million a season. $20 million a season is "superstar money." Joe won't get that. He won't ask for that. If a team's dumb enough to give him that - they're nuts. I'm with you he's not worth $20 million. But is he on some tier between Gordon/Hedo and LeBron? Why yes he is.

What's halfway between 11 and 20? 15.5? What's that times 6? Hey! That's $93 million!

6 years and $93 million isn't "superstar money" in 2010... That's "he's somewhere between LeBron and Hedo" money. That's not cuddling. That's understanding how economics and free market works. That's not "fanboy" behavior... that's understanding the business of the NBA. If anything simply pouting, throwing your hands in the air and saying "you're not as good as LeBron, but you want superstar money" or after every missed shot saying "if you wanna get paid you gotta make that." Um actually no, fanboy - he doesn't. Ben Gordon is a 43% career shooter that has averaged over 21 points per game once in his career... and he got $11 million a year. He's 2 years younger than Joe. He's never been to an all-star game. Hedo Turkoglu is a 43% career shooter that's never averaged over 20 ppg in a season. In fact he's averaged over 18 a night once. He got $11 per. And he was 30. And he's played in zero all-star games.

If these types of guys are getting $11... and "super-duper stars" are getting $20... doesn't it make sense that guys somewhere in-between Hedo and LeBron get $15.5? And you say you decide for yourself if a guy is over-paid. Who's the fanboy now? If that's the case pretty much everyone other than Kobe and LeBron are over-paid. But those that aren't "fanboys" understand the business of the NBA and understand economics. It's not what Hotlanta says is market value... it's what the MARKET says is the value. If the Market says Michael Redd and Ray Allen were worth 6 years and $90 million back in 05... then that's what they're worth....

That's the same reason we got Joe by-the-way. Robert Sarver applied the "Hotlanta Fanboy Method of Economics" and said "Joe we'll give you 6 years and $54 million. That's $9 million a year. When Redd and Allen got $90+ over 6... and the Cavs were giving Larry Hughes $72 million over 5... Arn Tellem looked at Robert Sarver and said - "you want Joe to take $9 a year when these other guys are getting all this?" Billy Knight knew what to offer (the same offer as Cavs gave Hughes)... and the rest is history.

And I agree that you don't have to take a foolish GM's word for it.. and assume they're valuing players correctly. Heck, Jerome James parlayed one post-season for the Sonics into a 5 year, $30 million deal with Knicks... And I don't even remember what the Magic paid to keep Gortat... there's certainly bad deals out there.

But if you think Joe left "superstar money" on the table with a 4 year/$60 million offer... you're nuts. The Superstars will all be signing $100 million contracts this summer. Northcyde and a few others have recommended something along 5 years and $80... or mine - 6 years and $93... in the summer of 2010 that'll be "you're not quite a super-duper star... but you're a heckuva lot better than Ben Gordon and Hedo."

And that Hotlanta (fanboy) - is all Northcyde and I are trying to do around here... to provide some perspective... to eliminate the knee-jerk, "fanboy" responses of "if you wanna get paid, you need to do better than that" - cause all that is to me... is ignorant commentary from somebody that doesn't really understand the bigger picture and the business of basketball; nor do they understand that Joe Johnson would be the best player on somewhere between half and two-thirds of the NBA teams right now. Sure stack him up against LeBron or Kobe, etc... and say he's not a super-star.... but over 25 teams in the NBA don't have a player that stacks up against either of those two either. And that's not "cuddling" Joe Johnson. That's being realistic. Typically the issue with "fanboys" is that they lose touch with reality and are biased one way or another. Accepting that LeBron's on his own planet isn't a "fanboy" thing to say... it's realistic. And giving Joe a pass for not being LeBron isn't "fanboy" - it's understanding LeBron's Top 5 of ALL TIME GREAT. For someone that "hates fanboys" - your lack of understanding reality and constantly railing on things comes off a bit "fanboy."

M

[TheFormerJJBacker]

JJ had less turnovers because he took so many 3's. You also got to factor in that Kobe had played more series than JJ had. The Celtics were the 4th team Kobe had played against that postseason. I didn't say that JJ had a terrible playoffs... There was a lot on his shoulders, but that doesn't change that his play was average at best when you look at the series overall. Regardless, I'm more worried about how is playing now... And his play this season has been shotty this season. You can usually find away to manipulate things to fit your own agenda if you try, but I think most here agree that JJ's play this season hasn't been that good. One or two hot shooting nights doesn't change that. JJ's play is getting worse by the season now and that needs to be looked at before giving a contract extension.

He took so many threes? You're wrong on a couple of fronts -

1)

JJ took 36 3's in 7 games and shot it at a 44% clip. He averaged 5.14 3pt attempts per game. Joe had 28 assists and 16 turnovers in 7 games

LeBron took 39 3's in 7 games and shot it at a 23% clip. So, LeBron actually took more three's than JJ.... had 53 assists and had 37 turnovers in 7 games

Kobe took 28 3's in 6 games and shot it at a 30% clip. Kobe averaged 4.67 3pt attempts per game. Kobe had 30 assists and 23 turnovers in 6 games.

What's this show? 3 point shooting didn't have a lick to do with asst:turnover ratio because all three took about the same number of 3's per game. They were all fairly close. (which again... was what I was trying to show in my first post)

(2)

You also seem to think taking 3's means you don't turn the ball over?

Danny Granger leads the league in 3 point attempts. He's also in the top 20 in turnover's per game

Ariza's second - he's in the top 35

Al Harrington's 7th - he's top 50 in turnovers

Aaron Brooks is 8th in 3's attempted - he's also 8th in the league in turnovers

Mo Williams is 9th in 3's - he's 29th in turnovers

Jennings is 14th in the league in 3's attempted - he's tied for 16th in turnovers

Arenas is 15th in the league - 6th in turnovers

Jason Kidd is 19th in 3pt attempts - 24th in turnovers

So 8 of the top 20 guys in 3 point attempts are also in the top 50 in turnovers (including 5 of which that are in top the top 20 in 3's and top 25 in turnovers?)

What's this mean? Taking threes doesn't have that much of a correlation to turning it over or not turning it over. I appreciate your knee-jerk "uhhhhh he took a lot of threes" as an explanation for ball security, though. Very non-fanboy of you, Hotlanta. Cause you know... just making up stuff and not looking at stats first would kinda be a "fanboy" kinda thing to do... and you hate those guys.

m

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Uh....no. All JJ in did in the series was have a couple of offensive spurts from behind the 3pt line. Nothing unlike we see now from him. He shot over 40% in 2 out of 7 games. That's not a good performance no matter how you try to spin it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1007&year=2008

I love how you give a link that show's you didn't look at it:

There's actually 2 games over 40% and one right at 40%... which is why I was saying in my posts above - that Joe Johnson had 3 games at or above 40%... while Kobe and LeBron both had 2.

Again - do you maybe want to re-read what I wrote. I know you saw a lot of words and numbers and that got you a little bored because it's easier to say "Joe doesn't deserve LeBron money!"... but seriously... just check what I typed, Hotlanta. Thanks for the link though.

M

Edited December 6, 2009 by JJBacker

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Outside of games 3 and 4 he was shyt mostly. His shooting was even poor in game 3. I know there aren't many highlights for this team, but some of the folks here simply overblow his performance in the series.

The guy also said that Joe had 4 games in which he shot 40% or above and he only had 3 and one of those was the sorry 4-10 effort in game two.

There are some good arguments in there, but there is also some hair spitting to make it sound good. Saying JJ shot better at 40.9% compared to Kobe's 40.5% is hair spitting. JJ didn't turn the ball over against Boston because he spent most of the series shooting 3's. JJ attempted 33 ft's in 7 games while Kobe attempted 49 FT's in 6 games. If you're taking it to the whole against Boston you will have more turnovers.

Kobe scored more, averaged more assists, and got the FT line more while JJ took less FT's and had better shooting. I'll say that JJ/Kobe had a near draw overall, and JJ had a better series than Lebron. Lebron was not really good against Boston at all.

I don't know anywhere in this thread where I overblew his performance in the series. You said it wasn't great. I said in comparison to two bonafide "superstars" is was fine. Can you please find where I said he was great in the series? I said he was clutch in 3 and 4... and his numbers in 6 weren't great but he did hit that 3 to put the nail in the coffin. Honestly I don't think anybody goes nuts about his good performances any more or less than you like to go nuts on his bad performances. In fact this is the first time I've really seen you on here after a win. Your specialty is waiting for a loss to type "smoke and mirrors" and stuff like that....

Any my bad on the 4 games at or above 40%,,, I was seeing that he averaged 44.7% in April... and factored that in... so yes - 3 games of 40% or above... my bad... but still one more than both Kobe and LeBron.

I touched on the "if you shoot three's you don't turn it over" myth in my other post... I do agree that if you're taking it to the hole you might have more turnovers... but if you remember - Kobe actually settled on a lot of outside jumpers and didn't really take it to the hole as much as you would expect. Perhaps that had to do with it being his 4th series of teams doing everything they can do to make him miserable.. but nonetheless... he wasn't in attack mode and constantly getting to the paint.

And you keep mentioning "hair splitting" - but again - I wasn't trying to show that Joe was better than anyone... all I wanted to show was that despite you labeling his performance vs the Celtics as "ho-hum" in comparison to some super-duper stars in the NBA... he held his own. So if it's splitting hairs? That means it's close. All I was trying to show was it was close.

Then you close out saying Kobe and JJ was a draw. And that he was better than LeBron. You just took what I was trying to say and went further with it. I (nor will I ever) say that Joe Johnson is in the same league as Kobe nor LeBron. Ever. Those guys are the super-duper stars of the NBA and are going to get the Superstar max money of $20 million per. You're now saying in a postseason that you considered "meh" - that Joe out-did LeBron against the same competition? One would assume then if that's the case Joe's clearly more in Kobe and LeBron's class than I thought (at least according to your 07/08 vs. celtics vacuum study)....

yet you think he turned down "superstar" money of 4 years and $60 million? Puh-leeze.

I don't know how you don't get that 5 years and $80 or 6 years and $96 is market value then for a guy that's somewhere in between pretty good and great.

M

PS - apologies on the 4 games vs. 3... I'm a tool. (at least I can admit it)

[Plainview1981]

As is the usual.... you're missing the point.

My point was - you claimed JJ didn't do much vs. the Celts. My point was "with respect to what other players better than JJ, did - he didn't do terrible." You keep saying "splitting hairs" - but you're making mine. JJ did pretty much what Kobe did vs. the Celtics. And we both know the Lakers of 07/08 were better than the Hawks. So with a "lesser supporting cast" JJ's Hawks lost in 7. Kobe's Lakers lost in 6. And Kobe was covered by Posey, Allen, and Pierce... same as Joe (although Joe mostly faced Posey and Allen).

I didn't say JJ did terrible. He had shot hot shooting spurts. Kobe had a better supporting cast, but Boston played a lot better against LA than they did against the Hawks. Like I said, the Hawks played horrible the first two games, and Boston thought they had the series won. Boston was prepared for a long battle with LA and came to play at a much higher level. The Lakers didn't sneak up on Boston like the Hawks did. Having a better supporting cast doesn't always make you play better. JJ has a better supporting cast than he had 2 years ago, but he is playing worse this year than he did 2 years ago.

Then you say "it's below his regular season numbers" - Same thing happened for LeBron and Kobe. Does that mean they didn't rise to the occasion? No... it means during the regular season you catch teams on second halves of back-to-backs... you catch em resting someone, etc... In a 7 game series, typically coaches will attempt to game-plan to take away what makes an opponent comfortable. A lot of times this means making things miserable for an opposing team's best player. LeBron wasn't immune to it. Kobe wasn't immune to it. Nor was Joe.

Lebron didn't shoot well, but his assist, rebounding and FT percentage where all nearly as high or higher than his regular season average. But I'll say JJ had a better series since LBJ's shooting was that poor. Because it was a poor shooting performance.

You talked about JJ getting his teammates to play better on the road. How many wins did the Cavs have in Boston that series? What about Kobe's Lakers? Didn't the Celtics beat the Lakers by almost 40 to close out the Finals? Didn't Kobe shoot 7 of 22 with one assist and 4 turnovers? (Note: the answer to the "how many winds did the Cavs have in Boston, etc.... was ZERO).

Kobe and Lebron have lead their teams to the finals. JJ hasn't done this. That's why guys like Kobe and Lebron get the benefit of the doubt. Because they've taken their team to great highs. Lebron's supporting cast was not all that good. All that really separates the Hawks from the Cavs is Lebron being better than Joe. Other wise, the Hawks have a more talented team. Take away Lebron and JJ two years ago and the Hawks have a better team. And while LA and Cleveland didn't win in Boston, they didn't get destroyed in all the games in Boston like the Hawks did. The Hawks were outscored 102PPG to 77PPG in Boston. Those were truly terrible performances. It's nowhere near all JJ's fault or anything....But he did play at a mediocre level in 3 out of those 4 games in Boston. That tends to really stick out when a team gets beat around that way. It reminded me of Hawks playoff performances about a decade earlier.

I do agree that that Celtics team hadn't played a playoff game before running into us in the first round. I also believe they thought they'd walk all over us... So I do agree that had we have faced the Celts further down the line we wouldn't have done as well as we did. That being said... If the Celts were firing at a maybe a 6 or 7 for us... and they were firing at a 8 for the Cavs... and a 10 by the finals.. wouldn't the opponents also be playing better, too?

If I'm not mistaken, Washington had played Cleveland tough in the playoff series one year earlier. Cleveland was prepared for a tough series with Washington and knew they couldn't go at a 6 level against them. As for the Lakers, that was a tough series they had against SA.... The same SA team that swept Cleveland the year before. Denver, Utah and SA were all really good teams. LA had the toughest road to the title by far. Boston played a 37 win team, Cleveland and a Detroit team that was on the decline. I do think that run they had took more out of the Lakers than people probably thought at the time. Even though the Spurs series only went 6 games it was a tough 6 games and I thought the Spurs were actually robbed in that series when Brent Barry was fouled by Derek Fisher and the refs didn't call it.

Back to the Celtics and Hawks....

Most people had no idea the Hawks would have some good performances.... Let's take a look back at the regular season games between the teams that season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280412001

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280302002

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271109002

The Hawks only won like 2 periods of those 3 games or something like that. They didn't score 90 in either of the 3 games and lost by double figures in all three games.

You don't think the Cavs played better in the 2nd round than they did in the first? You don't think the Lakers were well oiled and respecting the Celts. We were a motley crue that won 37 games and were happy to be there... so while the Celts might have been playing at a 6 or 7... we were probably only a 6 or 7 opponent. You said if we would have played them down the road we would have lost worse... but if the Celts would have played the Cavs or Lakers in Round 1 - the Celtics likely would have lost... so I would actually say that due to our level of competition we did ok. Once again - you always fail to look at anything but the Hawks and how they did. You don't think of anything else. Each round the Celtics advanced they played better... but they also faced tougher opponents... so their level of play was pretty much equal to that of their opponents in all three cases - the Hawks, the Cavs and the Lakers. So this makes your impact that your trying to attribute to Kobe's stats or LeBron's stats a little negligible. Not entirely, though... because I do agree 100% that the Celts blew the Hawks out in the first 2 and figured they could set it on cruise control. The Hawks slapped em in the mouth, got a little momentum, etc...

The Celtics were a lot better than the Cavs in my mind. Just as the Spurs were in the finals the year before. But Boston wasn't playing at a full confidence level yet I don't think. Of course The Lakers were respecting the Celtics, but they'd just came off of a really tough series against SA and had the toughest road to the finals. The Lakers had to go through Denver, Utah and SA... But that SA series wore the Lakers down some I think. Boston was a better team than the Lakers and had more star power so they won.

Your whole post pretty much made my point for me, though. All I was attempting to show was despite JJ's numbers being 20, 4, and 4 (modest)... his counterparts posted similarly modest numbers vs. the Celtics that post-season, as well. I wasn't trying to say JJ is GOD or that he's better than LeBron and Kobe. I was attempting to show that he did about as well as Kobe or LeBron did (with less of a supporting cast, on a younger team, with virtually zero playoff experience). So while you want to say "he didn't do much outside of his 5 minutes" vs the Celtics... I would say he did just fine in 07/08 in playoffs.

The Lakers and Cavs already had played a playoff series when they played Boston. The Hawks had first crack and fresh young legs. Maybe you don't think that's a difference... I don't know. But I think it does. Just look how the Hawks had nothing left when they played Cleveland in the 2nd round last year.

And there's always a "yeah but" with you Hotlanta. You just like to be negative. You talk about rings with D-Wade. His FT parade and a meltdown by the Mavs got him a ring with Shaq. So in 05/06 he won a ring with Shaq. What has he done since?

06/07 - Swept in the 1st Rd vs. Chicago Bulls

07/08 - No playoffs (injured)

08/09 - Lost in 1st Rd vs. Atlanta Hawks

09/10 - 1 game over .500

If you want to try and say that the Heat don't have as much talent around DWade - their payroll is $10 million higher than ours - so they're spending money on something. Oh yeah - it's almost $23 million for Jermain O'Neal. Again - trying to make a point. You think at $15 million per, JJ is a rip. What's O'Neal at nearly $23? Bad contracts are a part of the NBA. Every NBA team is littered with them. And you can laugh that Philly spent a ton of money on Elton Brand... but at the time they were paying for a guaranteed 20/10 PF. His career has gone completely downhill since (a la TMAC)... but there's really no way to predict an injury. Look at the raw deal the Magic got on Grant Hill. Got one of the better players in the NBA... he was hurt his whole Magic career... has been fine since coming to Phoenix. There's no way to know. If Brand could have stayed healthy in Philly - he's still throwing up 20 and 10's and the deal makes sense. I laugh all the time at bad deals, too...

Shaq might have been on that team, but he was on the decline and the 2nd option... Unlike Shaq's days in LA. And yes, the team around Wade is garbage. Personally, I think Beasley is over hyped. At least by what I've seen from him in the pro's. He doesn't look like a future star to me. Miami has no bench and a 3pt specialist for a PG. I think O'Neal was given that contract years ago, and just because O'Neal was overpaid doesn't mean that JJ should overpaid also. Brand only played in 20 something games the season before the Sixers signed him and people had questions if he would ever be the same. I don't recall what injury Brand had, but he was hurt before he signed with Philly and there were questions from what I remember. Philly bought a lemon and now they're begging for somebody to take that lemon off their hands.

But the bottom line is Ray Allen and Michael Redd have both made more money since the summer of 05 than Joe Johnson. Larry Hughes signed a similar deal. It could be said that Joe and Ray have been pretty close to one another... with Joe being a superior investment for the Hawks than Redd has been for the Bucks or Hughes was for the Cavs/Bulls/Knicks. As all of them become (or have the option to become) free agents - Joe's going to get the best deal. Ray and Redd both signed 6 year, $90 million dollar extensions to stay with the Sonics and Bucks in 05. Joe will have been an all-star in 4 of his 5 seasons in Atlanta. The market didn't bat an eye when Redd and Allen signed their extensions 5 years ago... you think someone's gonna think the Hawks got jobbed if they offer Joe the same thing Redd and Allen got in 05?

Those were bad deals 2 and Ray Allen was still playing great in 2005. JJ's play has been dropping the last two years. His shooting is getting more erratic by the year. He is only shooting 25% in three's this year. He was peaking before he went down in 2006. He was averaging 25PPG that season while shooting like 47%. He hasn't been the same since. Not only is JJ not a superstar, but his play is getting worse and worse. He looks like a used car that might break on any given day. I can't picture JJ averaging 22/5/5 at 32 or 33 years old. Not by what I'm seeing right now.

This whole last paragraph is laughable:

He does play like one. He's always among or around the top 10 in scoring. Every opposing team we play gameplans for him. He draws the other teams best perimeter defender. He typically needs to guard the opposing teams best player. And he didn't turn down "superstar money." Kobe isn't signing 4 year/ 60-some extensions. LeBron won't be getting a 4 year/$60 million offer from the Cavs. I'm willing to wager DWade gets something more than 4 years/$60 million this summer. You keep saying "superstar money."

Last year, he was a top 15 scorer.. But look... Out of the top 35 scorers from last year, only Billups shot worse:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&league=nba&sort=pts&season=2009

Wade, Lebron, and Kobe deserve larger contracts than JJ.

Ben Gordon got $11 per

Hedo got $11 per

Those guys aren't worth 11 million. Ben Gordon is a high scoring bench player. He add's nothing else to the game. Orlando made the right move in not signing Hedo to a long term contract. I said that when they let him go. He never was as good as people think he is. And yes, JJ is way better than those guys, but his play is also dropping off. And I get what you're saying about the market and all of that. But JJ is not even the best player on his own team now and his play is getting worse. If he was playing at the level he was in 2006, I could see him getting 15 million a year even though he isn't a superstar. I would let it slide then. JJ is playing even more selfish this year because he wants that contract, and I think he senses that he is losing his value to the team a bit. He has seen Crawford been added, Josh playing better, Al playing better.

Have you noticed that he is grumbling a lot less now that the team around him isn't playing as well? Don't you find that strange? When they were streaking, he was grumbling after every game. Is he grumbling now that the team is struggling and trying to lean a bit more on him as of late? No. He is happy now that Jamal Crawford is slightly deferring to him again.

But if you think Joe left "superstar money" on the table with a 4 year/$60 million offer... you're nuts. The Superstars will all be signing $100 million contracts this summer. Northcyde and a few others have recommended something along 5 years and $80... or mine - 6 years and $93... in the summer of 2010 that'll be "you're not quite a super-duper star... but you're a heckuva lot better than Ben Gordon and Hedo."

JJ shouldn't get more than that deal. He is a player that is on the decline. His shooting is getting worse every year.

And that Hotlanta (fanboy) - is all Northcyde and I are trying to do around here... to provide some perspective... to eliminate the knee-jerk, "fanboy" responses of "if you wanna get paid, you need to do better than that" - cause all that is to me... is ignorant commentary from somebody that doesn't really understand the bigger picture and the business of basketball; nor do they understand that Joe Johnson would be the best player on somewhere between half and two-thirds of the NBA teams right now. Sure stack him up against LeBron or Kobe, etc... and say he's not a super-star.... but over 25 teams in the NBA don't have a player that stacks up against either of those two either. And that's not "cuddling" Joe Johnson. That's being realistic. Typically the issue with "fanboys" is that they lose touch with reality and are biased one way or another. Accepting that LeBron's on his own planet isn't a "fanboy" thing to say... it's realistic. And giving Joe a pass for not being LeBron isn't "fanboy" - it's understanding LeBron's Top 5 of ALL TIME GREAT. For someone that "hates fanboys" - your lack of understanding reality and constantly railing on things comes off a bit "fanboy."

It's not just that JJ isn't on the same boat with James.... He is getting worse than the level he was playing at, and other younger guards are catching or passing him. Guys like Brandon Roy, Jennings, Durant are with him or will pass him soon. Yeah, deep down I know what you're saying about the market, but that doesn't make it easy to swallow. JJ might very well be the next Elton Brand. As a first option he is aging early like Steve Smith did. While he might be a top 10 scorer, he is taking a lot of shots to be a top 10 scorer. The league is going toward more balance.... There are only 15 players now averaging 20PPG when there was 27 of them 2 years ago, but JJ needs to be more efficient in his shooting and stop balling hogging with one on one play. He needs to show more emotion and lead by example. Right now, JJ is a poor man's Tmac (When Tmac was in his prime). Tmac had some nice seasons, but he never did went squat and Houston is moving on without him.

Am I'm overdoing it a bit? Yes, but that's the way I my view across. This team is going to have a lot of guys making a lot of money soon, but with that, this team is becoming capped out while still not being good enough to reach the elite level. Who knows how much Horford will demand as a FA... Josh is already making a good bit... But these players do have their primes ahead of them... JJ does not have that.

[Plainview1981]

I don't know anywhere in this thread where I overblew his performance in the series. You said it wasn't great. I said in comparison to two bonafide "superstars" is was fine. Can you please find where I said he was great in the series? I said he was clutch in 3 and 4... and his numbers in 6 weren't great but he did hit that 3 to put the nail in the coffin. Honestly I don't think anybody goes nuts about his good performances any more or less than you like to go nuts on his bad performances. In fact this is the first time I've really seen you on here after a win. Your specialty is waiting for a loss to type "smoke and mirrors" and stuff like that....

I was referring to a couple of other people that have acted like JJ had some great series. I should have made it more clear I wasn't talking about you. Ex is one of those guys that likes to link Joe's 5 minutes of fame when somebody talks about JJ's lack of good play in the playoffs.

Any my bad on the 4 games at or above 40%,,, I was seeing that he averaged 44.7% in April... and factored that in... so yes - 3 games of 40% or above... my bad... but still one more than both Kobe and LeBron.

Yeah, one of those was that not so aggressive 4-10 performance. Not really something to point out is it? The team wasn't as balanced then as it is now. So he HAD to be more aggressive then and there was times when he wasn't.

I touched on the "if you shoot three's you don't turn it over" myth in my other post... I do agree that if you're taking it to the hole you might have more turnovers... but if you remember - Kobe actually settled on a lot of outside jumpers and didn't really take it to the hole as much as you would expect. Perhaps that had to do with it being his 4th series of teams doing everything they can do to make him miserable.. but nonetheless... he wasn't in attack mode and constantly getting to the paint.

Kobe is always going to settle for a number of jump shots, but he'll still make the plays to get to the foul line.

And you keep mentioning "hair splitting" - but again - I wasn't trying to show that Joe was better than anyone... all I wanted to show was that despite you labeling his performance vs the Celtics as "ho-hum" in comparison to some super-duper stars in the NBA... he held his own. So if it's splitting hairs? That means it's close. All I was trying to show was it was close.

I don't think anybody said that Lebron or Kobe had a great series against Boston. But they've been there in big playoff moments for the team. When you've done that, you get less grief. Remember how KG always took a lot of heat because he couldn't ever get out of the first round? It's the same sort of thing with JJ and how some react toward him I think. Maybe it's not always fair, but this is a team that hasn't made a deep playoff run in forever, so you got some eager and in my case demanding fans.

Then you close out saying Kobe and JJ was a draw. And that he was better than LeBron. You just took what I was trying to say and went further with it. I (nor will I ever) say that Joe Johnson is in the same league as Kobe nor LeBron. Ever. Those guys are the super-duper stars of the NBA and are going to get the Superstar max money of $20 million per. You're now saying in a postseason that you considered "meh" - that Joe out-did LeBron against the same competition? One would assume then if that's the case Joe's clearly more in Kobe and LeBron's class than I thought (at least according to your 07/08 vs. celtics vacuum study)....

I'm saying that none of those three had a really good series against Boston. None of the 3 really did IMO. Even if JJ has a great series, he still isn't a better player than either of those two. It just means he had a great series. People on insidehoops were calling Kobe a choker after the finals. Lebron also took some grief from what I remember for shooting so poorly. Playing better than this or that person in one series doesn't always make you a better player. Lots of players have had better postseasons than A Rod, but that doesn't make them better players.

yet you think he turned down "superstar" money of 4 years and $60 million? Puh-leeze.

If 15 million a year is not good enough, how much does a declining 2nd tier SG thinks he should get? I mean, seriously? No wonder the league struggles with fan support. The market and player demands is unbelievable. I can't even name one player in the league that I really like now.

As for as admitting when I'm wrong... I do more than my fair share of hyperbole, but largely it's out of frustration. When I get frustrated, that's how I tend to act.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Hotlanta1981