ISO JOE wins the game

[Wurider05]

JJ backer you make some good points but you fail to see the the field goal percentage is what hurts us the most. JJ shooting in the low 40's while taking bad shots really hurts our teams. S

[TheNorthCydeRises]

hawksquawk will be quiet tonight...

It only seems to get jumping when Joe throws up some of those 6/18 and 5/19 nights. He gets called a chucker, etc.

Funny, because another player in our division has had these nights:

6/17

6/19

6/18

6/22

6/19

And shot a combined 42% in November... and has followed that up with a 40% clip thus far in December.

I'm guessing non of that teams' boards trash that player.

Oh - and we beat that player last year in the Playoffs. And Joe out-played him in Game 7 (despite Joe being labeled a post-season bust).

Funny - When Joe came here - the Hawks had won 13 games the prior season. All they've done is get better and better as a team has continued to play together.

The franchises fondest memories this decade? Joe's 20-point 4th quarter against the eventual NBA champ-Celtics in Game 4. Joe's Game 7 vs. the Heat.

He averaged 20, 4 and 4 vs. the Celtics in 07/08

He averaged 17, 5 and 4 with 2 steals in May of last year (final two Heat games and all of the Cavs games)

You people complain that he's not a #1 option - he just outplayed Dirk. You think Mavs fans hate on Dirk as much as Hawks fans hate on Joe?

He's 12th in the league in PPG (before tonight's 31... so that might change up to 11th)... of those 12 players - Joe takes the 3rd least amount of shots.

He has a better shooting percentage (despite being such a chucker) than:

Arenas

Jennings

Granger

and DWade

He has a better Assist to Turnover ratio than:

Monta Ellis

D Rose

D Wade

B Jennings

Arenas

Westbrook

Mo Williams

Kobe Bryant

Paul Pierce

He averages the same boards as Kobe and more boards than:

D Wade

B Roy

I come on this board once a few months or so to try and give peeps a decent picture of what's going on... only a few of you typically listen. I've said if for a few years now:

Joe's not LeBron. He's not Kobe. He's not some mega-watt super-duper star. He's a super-star. A steady all-star...

speaking of which. I've never been around fans of a team that say after one of their own gets selected for an all-star team, "he doesn't deserve to be there." What a pathetic bunch of fans some of you are. I'm not saying you have to be all rah-rah all the time... but for a franchise that's basically been a joke for over a decade... you'd figure some of ya'll would embrace some love.

I agree you'd like to see Joe be more consistent on a night to night basis. The reason he isn't? Cause he's not some ridiculous athlete. His game is not above the rim. DWade, Melo, Bron, etc. can average what they do because when their jumper's off (as illustrated above - D-Wade has had more stinkers this year than Joe has)... their ability to drive to the rim and get bailed out on calls allows them to pad the stats by shooting 12 of 14 from the line. Joe doesn't get that padding. So if he's 5/19... he's not gonna score 20... he just doesn't get to the line that much. He's just not an above the rim player. He's actually pretty similar to Ray Allen in that regard. He's a better defender and has has a bit more ball-handling and passing skills than Ray... Ray's a purer shooter and has a much quicker release. But Ray never really got to the line a lot either. Ray's been getting max money now for about 8 or 9 seasons. Ray's best year on a PPG basis? 06/07 - Seattle's record that year? 31-51 (and Ray was 31).

So yeah... board will be quiet. This post won't get a response..... because it's more fun for people like Hotlanta, etc... to wait out the good Joe games or simply type "about time" on a positive post... and then go hog wild after joe throws up a stinker and rant and rave about how much of a non-superstar Joe is.

Honestly, I almost wish the Hotlanta's of the world could have Joe just leave and watch the Hawks stumble to find a replacement for him.. and watch the team regress while Joe flourishes playing somewhere else. I have a sneaking suspicion that when the Hawks are losing 50 and 60 games again - a lot of these Joe naysayers won't be around Hawksquawk anymore. And for people on the fence... you'll be longing for the day that you had a top 20-25 player in the NBA on your team.

Some other random things I love -

Tonight -we got 2 O rebounds on a possession late in the 3rd quarter (I wanna say it was around the 4:30 mark remaining)... Joe didn't touch the ball the whole possession. The other Hawks on the floor combined to go 0-3, and the possession got us nothing despite the o rebounds. I know the ISO Joe offense can get stagnant. I know watching Joe pound the rock against the floor for 20 seconds can get old sometimes... but you realize he's our best player on offense, right? You realize the most good things happen when he has the ball, right? You'll typically either get him going for a score (not terrible at doing it) or him setting up a teammate (not terrible at that either). And you've watched other basketball teams play right? It's not like the ISO JJ is some ATL-only phenomenon. Watch a Cavs possession in the 4th quarter. Or a Heat possession. Or a Jazz posession. Or a Blazers possession. Or a Mavs possession. I could go on and on. Typically most teams give the ball to their best player and say "go do something." NBA coaches, for the most part, are over-rated. There are a few exceptions... but for the most part - whichever team has better players wins... except when a team is flat, disinterested, off, whatever. So keep whining about ISO JJ... but honestly I'm not sure how many other NBA games you've watched. Any team with an all-star type player gives the ball to that all-star type player and says "go do something."

I saw someone complaining that we've lost to stinky teams. Didn't read the post because it was a waste of time.

Cavs losses: Toronto, Chicago, Washington (by 17), Charlotte

Celtics losses: Indiana

Magic losses: Detroit, Oklahoma City (by almost 30)

Lakers losses: Dallas (who we just beat), Houston... oh and the Lakers have played 4 road games.

Phoenix losses: New Orleans (without Chris Paul... just like us), Knicks (by 27)

again - I could keep going... but the point is - it's an 82 game season. There are ebbs and flows. You don't win every game you should win on paper. Guys get tired, bored, distracted, disinterested, lazy, etc. It happens. All of us have plenty of off days at work. It's a grind. Sometimes you show up and lay an egg... ah well... get em next time. So we lost to the Knicks. But we've won 2 of our last three. We're 6-4 on the road. We're winning 70% of our games. Don't sweat the little stuff.

I dunno... It feels like I write the same post every year... I guess I haven't forgotten what 13 wins in a whole season feels like. Maybe some of you folks weren't paying attention when it sucked; so you can't appreciate the team now. I dunno. I'm happy seeing progression. I'm content with Joe Johnson. I think he's good. I watch enough other games to have seen many a DWade, Kobe, Durant, etc. suck-fest to know guys (no matter how good) have off games or weeks... I just try and keep it all in perspective.

Over the past few years on 12/5 here's where we stood:

08/09 - 12-6 - Conference Semi's (same crew, minus afro power)

07/08 - 7-10 - Playoffs (the modern era lol... Joe, the two Joshes, Bibby, Marvin and Horford's rookie year)

06/07 - 7-9 (Joe, the two Joshes, and Marvin)

05/06 - 2-14 (Joe Johnson's first year here, Al Harrington, and the two Joshes)

04/05 - 2-14 (Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Tyronn Lue and the two Joshes as rookies were our studs)

03/04 - 6-14 (Stephen Jackson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

02/03 - 9-10 (Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

So if you people wanna argue over if Joe's a super star or not... or what we should do with him this offseason, etc. - go right ahead. If you wanna jump on hawksquawk to complain about Joe anytime he has an off night - I guess we need a thread of "stars that stunk tonight." I'll log on every night and go over every all-stars bad shooting performance so we can keep Joe's 15 stinkers a year in perspective. I dunno - I guess I'm just happy to have a guy the whole NBA community recognizes as a super-star around here. But that's right - you all know more than beat writers, announcers, gms, coaches and NBA players (past and present). I got it now. Again - I know there's plenty of other teams out there that want the man.

And lastly, many of you know I actually live in phoenix... happened to flip to the suns game tonight during a break in the hawks game. Saw Kevin Martin in a suit. You people realize he's going to be 27 in February, right? Joe's 28. I've seen Martin's name brought up as a trade idea on here.... You know the concept of "injury prone," right? Here's his games (note: you might not be able to tell, but the NBA season is 82 games long):

04/05 - 45

05/06 - 72

06/07 - 80

07/08 - 61

08/09 - 51

09/10 - 5

Kevin Martin has played in 314 career games over 5.25 NBA seasons (so he's played 314 out of a possible 428 games). And you want to talk about chucking? This season he's averaging 30 a game (over his 5 games played) - yet he's taking 22 shots a game and shooting 42%. Last year he averaged 24.6 ppg on 42%. Kevin Martin does get the free-throw line a lot... but I'm guessing that might stop a bit... because clearly his body can't take the beating. So I'm not sure how Kevin Martin is someone you want to pay max money to, but Joe isn't.

Anyhew - this kinda got rambly... and I apologize for that... but again... a bunch of peeps on this board are missing some perspective.

Big ups to northcyde... he and I think alike... yet he has waaaaay more patience than me and actually posts good "keep it in perspective" posts all the time... but like me... those threads seem to end or get off topic and nobody actually has much of a comback to what he says other than "great post" or "that's the most logical thing I've read" or "I agree with northcyde."

Keep it up northcyde... maybe someday they'll make you a mod or give you your own wing on hawksquawk. Whether it's espn.com, ajc.com or here - you're always the guy who's post I enjoy the most... because they're exactly what I'm thinking. I jut don't know how you handle all the knee-jerk jerks out there...

M

Post of the Year.

I think the only reason I have patience, is because I'm also a Cincinnati Bengals fan. Between the Hawks and the Bengals, my sports life as a fan has been absolute hell, especially since around 1990. Rooting for both of these teams has taught me to appreciate and savor every moment of success each team has, because it can fade away at the snap of a finger.

So to see both of my teams really start to turn the corner at the same time . . yeah . . I'm loving this ish. And I'm not going to complain every time one of those teams lose a bad game. I mean, the Bengals 3 losses came off of a fluke tip pass vs Denver ( a game they deserved to lose anyway because they played horribly on offense for about 57 minutes . . but didn't deserve to lose like that ), a beat down at home vs the Texans, and a HORRIBLE loss out in Oakland.

Some Bengal fans have been doing the same thing that Hawks fans do. You have a small group that flat out trashes Carson Palmer, because he hasn't reached Peyton Manning's level yet. Sound familiar? From the outside looking in, you'd think people would be crazy to trash Carson, especially seeing how the team played last year when Carson was hurt and out for most of last season. But it happens.

Chad Johnson is the Bengals equivalent of Josh Smith. He's the face of the franchise and easily the most popular player on the team, although people tend to hate his immaturity. When he plays bad to mediocre, we can lose to anybody. When he plays great, we can beat anybody.

But for the most part, the Bengal fan base highly appreciates the run the Bengals are making this year, and are excited to see if we can hold onto that #2 seed and make some noise in the playoffs. But they're inconsistent like the Hawks are, and could easily lose @ Detroit today, seeing that we play Minnesota next week ( a game they'll probably win )

I don't know if I can say the majority of this fan base appreciates the Hawks, and what they're doing so far this year. Maybe that will change as the year rolls on. If we take care of business this month, January will be the proving ground for the Hawks, with all of the big time playoff teams we'll play. Maybe things will change then, if we hold our own against those teams.

Like you said, we were a joke of a franchise, before we acquired JJ. Without JJ, God knows what kind of franchise we'd be right now. He's not an elite player, but he's definitely on that 2nd level. And contrary to popular belief, 2nd level ( even some 3rd level ) players, get big time money.

People talk about his "selfishness" at times. But ALL superstar players are selfish at times. Every single last one of them goes into a mode in which they put it on their shoulders to win a game. We lose that game last night, if JJ plays unselfish basketball, because other guys weren't stepping up. Fact is though, JJ always passes the ball, even when people are accusing him of being selfish. He plays more unselfish than just about every star player in the league. But he only gets the "selfish" tag when he's missing shots. When he's in the zone like he was last night, it's "Go JJ Go" . . like he's Speed Racer or something.

Most people on this board have watched enough NBA basketball to know that you usually need 2 all-star caliber players, plus a third guy who can play at a high level on occasion, to be in championship contention. We're not quite there yet . . . YET. So to expect this team to play like a championship level team on a nightly basis, will simply drive you crazy as a fan.

I think people who have questions about this team, also realize that Hotlanta simply shows up only to spew negativity about this team. If JJ goes 6 - 18 FG, he's a horrible basketball player. When JJ goes 13 - 24 FG, JJ simply got "lucky" to have a game like that. It's just Hotlanta being Hotlanta.

I'll close with this. If people want to know the effect of not supposedly overpaying to keep a good ( but not great ) young player on a team, you only have to look no further than the Chicago Bulls.

That team decided to really play around with Ben Gordon, not paying him what he wanted, even though he was easily the most talented offensive player on the squad. Last year in the playoffs vs Boston, Gordon looked like a superstar scorer. But the choice of the Bulls was to let Ben test the market, thinking no one would pay big money for his services. So here comes Detroit, with their 5yr - 58/59 mill offer, and the Bulls are like "whoa" . . someone thinks he's worth 12 million dollars a year? Yep. Someone does. So now they have to decide if they want to pay that much money for Gordon, but Ben doesn't even give them a chance to mull it over. He signs with Detroit on the first day of free agency.

Ben is nowhere near a perfect basketball player. But his scoring role in Chicago was damn near perfect for him and the team. But the team decides that with Luou Deng coming back, and the prospect of possibly getting one of the big free agents next year, that Ben isn't worth 12 million a year.

If they land a Dwyane Wade or a Lebron James next year ( or a Joe Johnson ), then that decision may have been wise. But if they don't, it's a decision that could see them fighting for the 8th seed in the playoffs for years to come, with no chance to advance to that next level. I say that because the jury is out on whether Derrick Rose can go to that next level as a player. So far this year, he's pretty much been the same guy he was last year. And Ben's absence from the Bulls has taken away the deep ball from that team.

I wonder if Bulls fans miss Ben Gordon? LOL . . what do you think.

http://www.examiner.com/x-490-Chicago-Bulls-Examiner~y2009m11d27-The-Bulls-miss-Ben-Gordon

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-02-pistons-bulls-ben-gordon-.ar0dec02,0,1814286.story

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/jackson/1915119,CST-SPT-jax02.article

( the latest blog about the Bulls blowout loss to the Raptors )

http://blogs.bulls.com/chicago_bulls_blog/2009/12/raptors-demolish-the-staggering-bulls.html

This free agency season, you're gonna have teams chasing after ghosts. Honestly, Lebron and Wade would be CRAZY to leave their respective teams. It could happen, but it wouldn't put either of them closer to a championship. If they re-sign with their current teams, guess who all of those teams with cap space are going to come FULL THROTTLE after.

Amare Stoudamire . . Chris Bosh . . and Joe Johnson.

And if the Hawks aren't willing to play with the big boys, they run a SIGNIFICANT RISK of seeing this team fall back in the pack ( like out of the playoffs ), simply because they don't want to pay superstar money to an all-star player. It's going to be a dangerous game of "chicken" the Hawks are going to play with JJ this summer ( or before then, if they decide to trade him ). If Sund's and the ASG's JJ contingency plan is to give Jamal Crawford the ball . . or trade JJ for some lesser star, Sund should be fired TODAY and the ASG should simply sell the team.

I don't want Kevin Martin here, but that's a predictable move that they'll try to make, and try to sell us that we got the best possible value for JJ. The list of the games he's played ( or not played in ) is eye-opening, to say the least. It's almost T-Mac like. I knew he was injury prone a little, but not like that. That's a huge reg flag against bringing a guy like that in, to replace a workhorse like JJ. I'd much rather pay JJ top dollar, to assure that we'll stay at playoff level, than to bring in a cheaper "star", and have that be in jeapordy.

JJ may not lead ATL to a championship, but he sure can help keep us a playoff team for years to come. But if JJ teams up with Wade or Lebron, people around here can FORGET ABOUT ever getting to an NBA Final, let alone winning a title.

[Buzzard]

Had to grind it out, but the Captain wouldn't let us lose. Gritty tough win by this team tonight, with a brilliant performance by JJ . . ISO JJ that is. Joe Smith had some huge baskets and defensive plays down the stretch. Good for him. We definitely need someone else on this bench that we can depend on.

ISO JJ is preparing him for how he'll have to score in the playoffs. All of your superstar players have to be great ISO players during that time of year. Team ball is great, but great ISO players win championships.

Northcyde, no one here is arguing that JJ is not needed nor that he is not a really fine player. But great is to strong for him. He would be the 2nd option on the Cavs at best or 3rd option on the Celtics and Magic at best; and out west he would play that same role with half a dozen other teams. This is why team ball is much more important for us than it is for those other teams.

ISO should be a staple for JJ; and I am sure it would be even if he was playing elsewhere. But we need him and Woody to make serious efforts to engage our whole team in order for us to play our best ball. That is my opinion; and until I see us dominating lottery teams as we should using ISO JJ, its not going to change.

ISO is great when JJ is scoring at a good clip; its barely adequate when he is not, because he does not give up the rock early enough. He is not Jordan, Kobe, Lebron etc...he is not going to will us to win on bad shooting nights just by continuing to shoot.

[jhay610]

Northcyde, no one here is arguing that JJ is not needed nor that he is not a really fine player. But great is to strong for him. He would be the 2nd option on the Cavs at best or 3rd option on the Celtics and Magic at best; and out west he would play that same role with half a dozen other teams. This is why team ball is much more important for us than it is for those other teams.

ISO should be a staple for JJ; and I am sure it would be even if he was playing elsewhere. But we need him and Woody to make serious efforts to engage our whole team in order for us to play our best ball. That is my opinion; and until I see us dominating lottery teams as we should using ISO JJ, its not going to change.

ISO is great when JJ is scoring at a good clip; its barely adequate when he is not, because he does not give up the rock early enough. He is not Jordan, Kobe, Lebron etc...he is not going to will us to win on bad shooting nights just by continuing to shoot.

Just wanted to point out that the emboldened text fits the OP, northcyde and your own point that JJ is not on a par with the Lebron, Kobe and Wades of the world. I think you may have undervalued JJ as to where he would fit in the pecking order were he a member of the Magic or Celtics.

I believe you are in the Sack Woody camp, of which I too am a card-carrying member (provided we get a notable upgrade), and I don't think you come on here and bash JJ when he has a rough night. My problem is when people post all kinds of incoherent vitriol when JJ has a bad night, calling him a chucker and a ballhog and this and that. Our offensive philosophy starts from the top down - JJ is not doing anything more or less than what Mike Woodson and his teammates expect him to do. Joe has to come out and score the basketball and facilitate offensive opportunities for our other players every night, so of course when he doesn't have it going we are going to struggle and it is going to look bad. It's not like his shooting or pounding the rock is keeping us from running our offensive sets and getting better looks.

Guess what? The only contingency plan is ISO CRAW. The other players on this team are not ready/not capable of consistently taking on that responsibility, so we will always be limited offensively to how far Joe can take us with Woodson at the helm. As has been pointed out earlier, Joe is not a "super-duper" star, just an all-star, but those elite players of the highest order are few and far between. So we have to go with what we've got, and you can bet we'll be hurting next year if we aren't able to retain Mr. Johnson's services.

It would be nice if we ran some kind of brilliant UCLA or Princeton offense with back cuts and ball movement, but you just don't see that type of stuff in the NBA; for the most part the best you can hope for in terms of movement is a pick and roll or a pick and pop.

Edited December 6, 2009 by jhay610

[niremetal]

hawksquawk will be quiet tonight...

It only seems to get jumping when Joe throws up some of those 6/18 and 5/19 nights. He gets called a chucker, etc.

Funny, because another player in our division has had these nights:

6/17

6/19

6/18

6/22

6/19

And shot a combined 42% in November... and has followed that up with a 40% clip thus far in December.

I'm guessing non of that teams' boards trash that player.

Oh - and we beat that player last year in the Playoffs. And Joe out-played him in Game 7 (despite Joe being labeled a post-season bust).

Funny - When Joe came here - the Hawks had won 13 games the prior season. All they've done is get better and better as a team has continued to play together.

The franchises fondest memories this decade? Joe's 20-point 4th quarter against the eventual NBA champ-Celtics in Game 4. Joe's Game 7 vs. the Heat.

He averaged 20, 4 and 4 vs. the Celtics in 07/08

He averaged 17, 5 and 4 with 2 steals in May of last year (final two Heat games and all of the Cavs games)

You people complain that he's not a #1 option - he just outplayed Dirk. You think Mavs fans hate on Dirk as much as Hawks fans hate on Joe?

He's 12th in the league in PPG (before tonight's 31... so that might change up to 11th)... of those 12 players - Joe takes the 3rd least amount of shots.

He has a better shooting percentage (despite being such a chucker) than:

Arenas

Jennings

Granger

and DWade

He has a better Assist to Turnover ratio than:

Monta Ellis

D Rose

D Wade

B Jennings

Arenas

Westbrook

Mo Williams

Kobe Bryant

Paul Pierce

He averages the same boards as Kobe and more boards than:

D Wade

B Roy

I come on this board once a few months or so to try and give peeps a decent picture of what's going on... only a few of you typically listen. I've said if for a few years now:

Joe's not LeBron. He's not Kobe. He's not some mega-watt super-duper star. He's a super-star. A steady all-star...

speaking of which. I've never been around fans of a team that say after one of their own gets selected for an all-star team, "he doesn't deserve to be there." What a pathetic bunch of fans some of you are. I'm not saying you have to be all rah-rah all the time... but for a franchise that's basically been a joke for over a decade... you'd figure some of ya'll would embrace some love.

I agree you'd like to see Joe be more consistent on a night to night basis. The reason he isn't? Cause he's not some ridiculous athlete. His game is not above the rim. DWade, Melo, Bron, etc. can average what they do because when their jumper's off (as illustrated above - D-Wade has had more stinkers this year than Joe has)... their ability to drive to the rim and get bailed out on calls allows them to pad the stats by shooting 12 of 14 from the line. Joe doesn't get that padding. So if he's 5/19... he's not gonna score 20... he just doesn't get to the line that much. He's just not an above the rim player. He's actually pretty similar to Ray Allen in that regard. He's a better defender and has has a bit more ball-handling and passing skills than Ray... Ray's a purer shooter and has a much quicker release. But Ray never really got to the line a lot either. Ray's been getting max money now for about 8 or 9 seasons. Ray's best year on a PPG basis? 06/07 - Seattle's record that year? 31-51 (and Ray was 31).

So yeah... board will be quiet. This post won't get a response..... because it's more fun for people like Hotlanta, etc... to wait out the good Joe games or simply type "about time" on a positive post... and then go hog wild after joe throws up a stinker and rant and rave about how much of a non-superstar Joe is.

Honestly, I almost wish the Hotlanta's of the world could have Joe just leave and watch the Hawks stumble to find a replacement for him.. and watch the team regress while Joe flourishes playing somewhere else. I have a sneaking suspicion that when the Hawks are losing 50 and 60 games again - a lot of these Joe naysayers won't be around Hawksquawk anymore. And for people on the fence... you'll be longing for the day that you had a top 20-25 player in the NBA on your team.

Some other random things I love -

Tonight -we got 2 O rebounds on a possession late in the 3rd quarter (I wanna say it was around the 4:30 mark remaining)... Joe didn't touch the ball the whole possession. The other Hawks on the floor combined to go 0-3, and the possession got us nothing despite the o rebounds. I know the ISO Joe offense can get stagnant. I know watching Joe pound the rock against the floor for 20 seconds can get old sometimes... but you realize he's our best player on offense, right? You realize the most good things happen when he has the ball, right? You'll typically either get him going for a score (not terrible at doing it) or him setting up a teammate (not terrible at that either). And you've watched other basketball teams play right? It's not like the ISO JJ is some ATL-only phenomenon. Watch a Cavs possession in the 4th quarter. Or a Heat possession. Or a Jazz posession. Or a Blazers possession. Or a Mavs possession. I could go on and on. Typically most teams give the ball to their best player and say "go do something." NBA coaches, for the most part, are over-rated. There are a few exceptions... but for the most part - whichever team has better players wins... except when a team is flat, disinterested, off, whatever. So keep whining about ISO JJ... but honestly I'm not sure how many other NBA games you've watched. Any team with an all-star type player gives the ball to that all-star type player and says "go do something."

I saw someone complaining that we've lost to stinky teams. Didn't read the post because it was a waste of time.

Cavs losses: Toronto, Chicago, Washington (by 17), Charlotte

Celtics losses: Indiana

Magic losses: Detroit, Oklahoma City (by almost 30)

Lakers losses: Dallas (who we just beat), Houston... oh and the Lakers have played 4 road games.

Phoenix losses: New Orleans (without Chris Paul... just like us), Knicks (by 27)

again - I could keep going... but the point is - it's an 82 game season. There are ebbs and flows. You don't win every game you should win on paper. Guys get tired, bored, distracted, disinterested, lazy, etc. It happens. All of us have plenty of off days at work. It's a grind. Sometimes you show up and lay an egg... ah well... get em next time. So we lost to the Knicks. But we've won 2 of our last three. We're 6-4 on the road. We're winning 70% of our games. Don't sweat the little stuff.

I dunno... It feels like I write the same post every year... I guess I haven't forgotten what 13 wins in a whole season feels like. Maybe some of you folks weren't paying attention when it sucked; so you can't appreciate the team now. I dunno. I'm happy seeing progression. I'm content with Joe Johnson. I think he's good. I watch enough other games to have seen many a DWade, Kobe, Durant, etc. suck-fest to know guys (no matter how good) have off games or weeks... I just try and keep it all in perspective.

Over the past few years on 12/5 here's where we stood:

08/09 - 12-6 - Conference Semi's (same crew, minus afro power)

07/08 - 7-10 - Playoffs (the modern era lol... Joe, the two Joshes, Bibby, Marvin and Horford's rookie year)

06/07 - 7-9 (Joe, the two Joshes, and Marvin)

05/06 - 2-14 (Joe Johnson's first year here, Al Harrington, and the two Joshes)

04/05 - 2-14 (Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Tyronn Lue and the two Joshes as rookies were our studs)

03/04 - 6-14 (Stephen Jackson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

02/03 - 9-10 (Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

So if you people wanna argue over if Joe's a super star or not... or what we should do with him this offseason, etc. - go right ahead. If you wanna jump on hawksquawk to complain about Joe anytime he has an off night - I guess we need a thread of "stars that stunk tonight." I'll log on every night and go over every all-stars bad shooting performance so we can keep Joe's 15 stinkers a year in perspective. I dunno - I guess I'm just happy to have a guy the whole NBA community recognizes as a super-star around here. But that's right - you all know more than beat writers, announcers, gms, coaches and NBA players (past and present). I got it now. Again - I know there's plenty of other teams out there that want the man.

And lastly, many of you know I actually live in phoenix... happened to flip to the suns game tonight during a break in the hawks game. Saw Kevin Martin in a suit. You people realize he's going to be 27 in February, right? Joe's 28. I've seen Martin's name brought up as a trade idea on here.... You know the concept of "injury prone," right? Here's his games (note: you might not be able to tell, but the NBA season is 82 games long):

04/05 - 45

05/06 - 72

06/07 - 80

07/08 - 61

08/09 - 51

09/10 - 5

Kevin Martin has played in 314 career games over 5.25 NBA seasons (so he's played 314 out of a possible 428 games). And you want to talk about chucking? This season he's averaging 30 a game (over his 5 games played) - yet he's taking 22 shots a game and shooting 42%. Last year he averaged 24.6 ppg on 42%. Kevin Martin does get the free-throw line a lot... but I'm guessing that might stop a bit... because clearly his body can't take the beating. So I'm not sure how Kevin Martin is someone you want to pay max money to, but Joe isn't.

Anyhew - this kinda got rambly... and I apologize for that... but again... a bunch of peeps on this board are missing some perspective.

Big ups to northcyde... he and I think alike... yet he has waaaaay more patience than me and actually posts good "keep it in perspective" posts all the time... but like me... those threads seem to end or get off topic and nobody actually has much of a comback to what he says other than "great post" or "that's the most logical thing I've read" or "I agree with northcyde."

Keep it up northcyde... maybe someday they'll make you a mod or give you your own wing on hawksquawk. Whether it's espn.com, ajc.com or here - you're always the guy who's post I enjoy the most... because they're exactly what I'm thinking. I jut don't know how you handle all the knee-jerk jerks out there...

M

Whatever quibbles I may have with it, that was one of the best posts I've ever seen on here.

[jy23]

Y do teams ALWAYS play better against other teams than they do against the hawks? Is there a memo out there for teams saying don't play hard against the hawks? Hots ur funny, i used to get bothered by ur posts now i just laugh. u remind me of Skip Bayless, I think u say things for shock value......but hey do ur thing man.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Y do teams ALWAYS play better against other teams than they do against the hawks? Is there a memo out there for teams saying don't play hard against the hawks? Hots ur funny, i used to get bothered by ur posts now i just laugh. u remind me of Skip Bayless, I think u say things for shock value......but hey do ur thing man.

LOL @ Skip Bayless. That's a dang good description.

[Plainview1981]

LOL @ Skip Bayless. That's a dang good description.

Northcyde.. Do you think the Hawks can be anything more than 2nd round stepping stones for better teams?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Northcyde.. Do you think the Hawks can be anything more than 2nd round stepping stones for better teams?

Right now, I like how we match up with Boston. That's the team that if we're matched up against them, we can beat in a 7 game series ( even if we don't have home court advantage ). The win we had up there, ( a convincing win in which we ran them to death ), I think proved that we can win a tough road game against a good team like then.

Unlike with Orlando, I don't this team isn't scared of Boston AT ALL. It's all about staying tough when we play Boston. Boston does not have a defensive answer for JJ, and they know it . . which is why they double team him like crazy, hoping other people don't hit wide open jumpers.

I don't know how we look vs Cleveland with Shaq, but too many people ( including yourself ) put way too much stock in that Cleveland playoff series last year. You routinely bring up how we're beating teams this year when they have people hurt. But everybody who complains about how bad we looked vs Cleveland, knows that Marvin and Horford were nowhere near 100% last year in that series.

They don't sweep us if we're healthy. No way in hell. We'd beat them once last year, and should've beat them a 2nd time, if it wasn't for a BS phantom call on LeBron driving to the hole with a second left.

The Cavs do not have a defensive answer for Smoove, and JJ can abuse their smallish guards, if they choose not to double team him. It's just that with Shaq in the middle, will Horford and Smoove be willing to attack him? And on the flip side, how well do we guard Shaq in the middle . . and can we guard him without fouling Horford out? We'll see after Christmas how we play them.

The Big 3 are great teams, but they're not invincible. As for the sorry teams beating us, the Hawks are now the hunted . . not the hunters. We're the team that a squad like Memphis will get up for, to try to see how they measure up against good teams. It wasn't long ago when we were the hunters, using the good teams to measure up to. Now we're good, and we use the great teams to compare ourselves to.

Orlando is our kryptonite right now. We have to shoot real well to beat them, because we can't stop Howard. And we don't have enough shooters on this team to keep up with them, if their shooters are hot.

[Plainview1981]

Right now, I like how we match up with Boston. That's the team that if we're matched up against them, we can beat in a 7 game series ( even if we don't have home court advantage ). The win we had up there, ( a convincing win in which we ran them to death ), I think proved that we can win a tough road game against a good team like then.

They haven't proved this in the playoff yet. I can't just "believe". They had a good regular season win a couple of weeks ago, but can they repeat it in the playoffs? But there is no doubt Boston is the best matchup of the top 3 teams.

Boston does not have a defensive answer for JJ, and they know it . . which is why they double team him like crazy, hoping other people don't hit wide open jumpers.

I think Boston doubles JJ a bit more than they need to since JJ's shooting isn't that good anymore.

They don't sweep us if we're healthy. No way in hell. We'd beat them once last year, and should've beat them a 2nd time, if it wasn't for a BS phantom call on LeBron driving to the hole with a second left.

I know Al and Marvin wasn't healthy last year, but Marvin mostly is no a difference maker anyway. They probably get one win if the team is healthy.

The Cavs do not have a defensive answer for Smoove, and JJ can abuse their smallish guards, if they choose not to double team him. It's just that with Shaq in the middle, will Horford and Smoove be willing to attack him? And on the flip side, how well do we guard Shaq in the middle . . and can we guard him without fouling Horford out? We'll see after Christmas how we play them.

JJ's shooting is erratic now and that makes me doubt JJ's advantage over their guards. It's getting to be more of a surprise to see JJ make his shots at a good clip. I think a lot of teams expose Shaq as a weakness due to his lack of pick and roll defense... Will this team be able to expose him? I'm not sure they'll make a focused game plan to do it. This isn't a team that is good at making adjustments or game planning.

The Big 3 are great teams, but they're not invincible. As for the sorry teams beating us, the Hawks are now the hunted . . not the hunters. We're the team that a squad like Memphis will get up for, to try to see how they measure up against good teams. It wasn't long ago when we were the hunters, using the good teams to measure up to. Now we're good, and we use the great teams to compare ourselves to.

That's a good point. This teams margin for victory is so small that it really is annoying when they don't capitalize on big chances that they get. You can't expect some people to not be annoyed by the lack of consistency with the team and how they play the game. In football, the Dallas Cowboys have the issues the Hawks do.

I believe a lot of the "knee jerk" reactions would go away if the team established a level of consistency. The team showed signs of being a good defensive team last year and only gave up 96PPG last year. But this year, teams are having a field day inside or behind the 3pt line. The only thing that really changed on the roster was Flip Murray who was better on the defensive side of the ball than given credit for I think. Crawford has brought nothing to the defensive side of the ball out there despite playing 30 minutes a night.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[Buzzard]

It would be nice if we ran some kind of brilliant UCLA or Princeton offense with back cuts and ball movement, but you just don't see that type of stuff in the NBA; for the most part the best you can hope for in terms of movement is a pick and roll or a pick and pop.

Screens, back cuts, .... players cutting through the post happen all the time for teams that are guard/outside shot oriented. Pistons, Wizards, Suns to name three right off the top of my head. So do pick and rolls and pick and pops; not to mention those slashes also free players up for quick layups or dunks. ISO JJ could be effective if he passed the ball quickly and players actually moved to open spots inside, through, and outside of the paint.

Woody is coaching offense at a middle school/high school level at best on most nights. And to have three veteran guards who have been good to great passers and shooters their whole NBA career..... his schemes, or lack there of being more accurate, is a complete waste of half their talent.

Now you throw in the fact that he has the most talented bench in his career yet still gives out similar minutes to players 7 through 12, I think it is obvious being a good head coach is over his head.

I don't know what Larry Brown taught Woody but it was not how to run his offense or his defense....

Edited December 7, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

Screens, back cuts, .... players cutting through the post happen all the time for teams that are guard/outside shot oriented. Pistons, Wizards, Suns to name three right off the top of my head. So do pick and rolls and pick and pops; not to mention those slashes also free players up for quick layups or dunks. ISO JJ could be effective if he passed the ball quickly and players actually moved to open spots inside, through, and outside of the paint.

Woody is coaching offense at a middle school/high school level at best on most nights. And to have three veteran guards who have been good to great passers and shooters their whole NBA career..... his schemes, or lack there of being more accurate, is a complete waste of half their talent.

Yup. The thing that's most striking to me about our offense is the lack of off-ball movement. We see this far too often: If the ball goes to the post, the guys on the perimeter stand still. If it goes to JJ on an ISO, everyone else stands still. If Crawford gets the ball at the top of the key and tries to break his man down, no one moves. It's obvious that simple things like off-ball screens and backdoor cuts are not emphasized as part of the offense. Considering that we almost always have 4 good passers on the floor at any given time (Marvin and Zaza being the exceptions), that's mind-boggling.

[RMJ]

They haven't proved this in the playoff yet. I can't just "believe". They had a good regular season win a couple of weeks ago, but can they repeat it in the playoffs? But there is no doubt Boston is the best matchup of the top 3 teams.

I think Boston doubles JJ a bit more than they need to since JJ's shooting isn't that good anymore.

I know Al and Marvin wasn't healthy last year, but Marvin mostly is no a difference maker anyway. They probably get one win if the team is healthy.

JJ's shooting is erratic now and that makes me doubt JJ's advantage over their guards. It's getting to be more of a surprise to see JJ make his shots at a good clip. I think a lot of teams expose Shaq as a weakness due to his lack of pick and roll defense... Will this team be able to expose him? I'm not sure they'll make a focused game plan to do it. This isn't a team that is good at making adjustments or game planning.

That's a good point. This teams margin for victory is so small that it really is annoying when they don't capitalize on big chances that they get. You can't expect some people to not be annoyed by the lack of consistency with the team and how they play the game. In football, the Dallas Cowboys have the issues the Hawks do.

I believe a lot of the "knee jerk" reactions would go away if the team established a level of consistency. The team showed signs of being a good defensive team last year and only gave up 96PPG last year. But this year, teams are having a field day inside or behind the 3pt line. The only thing that really changed on the roster was Flip Murray who was better on the defensive side of the ball than given credit for I think. Crawford has brought nothing to the defensive side of the ball out there despite playing 30 minutes a night.

Hotlanta, JJ is shooting .444 from the field despite hitting only 1 of his last 17 three point attempts and shooting 28%. I'd be shocked if he continues to shoot that way from the 3 all year. JJ is only struggling with his 3 point shot not his overall shooting.

[Plainview1981]

Hotlanta, JJ is shooting .444 from the field despite hitting only 1 of his last 17 three point attempts and shooting 28%. I'd be shocked if he continues to shoot that way from the 3 all year. JJ is only struggling with his 3 point shot not his overall shooting.

The last two games have really boosted that shooting, but the fact is that he takes a decent amount of 3's. Maybe he should just stop shooting them so much until he starts making them? The two leading scorers on the team fire a lot of 3's and only make them at about a 27% clip. That's starting to hurt the team. Unlike Crawford, Flip was making the 3's he was taking last year.

[Diesel]

JJ backer you make some good points but you fail to see the the field goal percentage is what hurts us the most. JJ shooting in the low 40's while taking bad shots really hurts our teams. S

"THE MOST" is specific...

You say FG% is what hurts us "THE MOST".

I disagree.

Rebounding is what hurts us "THE MOST" in my opinion.

[RMJ]

The last two games have really boosted that shooting, but the fact is that he takes a decent amount of 3's. Maybe he should just stop shooting them so much until he starts making them? The two leading scorers on the team fire a lot of 3's and only make them at about a 27% clip. That's starting to hurt the team. Unlike Crawford, Flip was making the 3's he was taking last year.

You can also say those two back to back 6-18 games hurt his fg%. You can't take away his good shooting nights without taking out his bad shooting nights. The truth is JJ has shot the ball well outside of the three. Most of his 3's are wide open shots and eventually he'll make or stop taking them hopefully. What do you think JJ's fg% would be if he was shooting 38% from the 3 instead of 28%?

[RMJ]

"THE MOST" is specific...

You say FG% is what hurts us "THE MOST".

I disagree.

Rebounding is what hurts us "THE MOST" in my opinion.

I agree with you on rebounds. JJ's fg% isn't reall that bad. Hell, he shot 50 against the knicks and Atl still lost.

Defense is rebounding is the key to the hawks having a REALLY good season

[Atlantaholic]

During the last three years Joe Johnsons' TS% is around 53%, which is like third or fourth best among starters. Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, Al Horford AND Bibby have had better TS% during the last three years than JJ, yet it is "great playoff caliber" coaching having him going one on one all game. Ok.

We won against Dallas because of our defense, our offense, on the whole was putrid. JJ got hot and had to carry us, we won't be winning many games having JJ be our only scorer.

JJ is our best offensive player, but having him be a facilitator, and finding ways to use the defensive attention that JJ garners to get everyone involved is how we are gonna compete against the big three.

The biggest reason Cleveland lost in the playoffs is because MIke Brown's playbook is the same as Woody's. Iso Lebron all game every game... If Cleveland can't win with Iso Lebron, we SURE AS HECK won't win a series with Iso JJ, who has been a modest AT BEST playoff performer so far with us.

[Plainview1981]

You can also say those two back to back 6-18 games hurt his fg%. You can't take away his good shooting nights without taking out his bad shooting nights. The truth is JJ has shot the ball well outside of the three. Most of his 3's are wide open shots and eventually he'll make or stop taking them hopefully. What do you think JJ's fg% would be if he was shooting 38% from the 3 instead of 28%?

As long as he keeps missing 3's he is going to be shooting a fairly low percentage. You say that he'll start making them sooner or later, but it's been a good while since he has shot the 3 ball well with any consistency. The days of him shooting 38% in 3's might be over. I think he has shot like 35% the last two years and is shooting worse this year. I'm sure he will pick up up a little this year, but I can see a drop off to around 33% or so.

[spotatl]

For how much people b*tch about the offense its just astounding to me. They are completely ignoring the results the Hawks are getting this season and want the team to emulate other teams that have better personnel on offense that aren't getting as much production. The hawks are a top 4 offense in the NBA this season. They are limiting the touches of the more limited offensive players and becuase of that they are by FAR the least turnover prone team in the league. To give you an idea the difference between the hawks and #2 is the same as #2 and #18 in the league. And the hawks are also #11 in assist percentage so its not like they aren't passing at all.

I just find it fascinating that people complain so much about the Hawks offense at the same time they are having so much success with it.