Nice Article about the Hawks attendance situation....

[Dragitoff]

http://www.macon.com/758/story/962149.html#none

[coachx]

Excellent points by Bill Shanks.

I live an hour northeast of Phillips Arena...................just as he is an hour south of it.

They definately need to try to sale to sports fans outside of the Atlanta bubble too.

[JackB1]

They definitely don't promote the Hawks nearly enough. I never see commercials on any local stations (other than the channels that show the games) and I never hear the local AM channels discussing them.

[frankthetank966]

promoting means that they have to spend money. do they want to risk spending money? now would be a good time to tell b/c of their record but they are stingy

[Blunt91]

Looks like the Hawks will never sell out on a regular basis unless we win the NBA Finals. We have the wrong people making descions in Management and Marketing. Only caring about the fans in Atlanta(To a small degree) and turning your nose up to the rest of the fans in Georgia is the wrong Mentality to have.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Blunt91

[Buzzard]

Looks like the Hawks will never sell out on a regular basis unless we win the NBA Finals. We have the wrong people making descions in Management and Marketing. Only caring about the fans in Atlanta(To a small degree) and turning your nose up to the rest of the fans in Georgia is the wrong Mentality to have.

Yes Blunt and I swear if Ted Turner ever got the Hawks back they would be marketed not just a hour away from the ATL, but in south Tenn. and South Georgia as well. I lived in Albany back in the early 70s before the superstation was super, and use to listen to the Braves every evening on the radio down there.

Captain Outrageous was a marketing genius. He inherited a small radio station and turned it into national and cable TV; as well as a two sport monolopy in the south with the Braves and Hawks...

Edited December 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[mrhonline]

promoting means that they have to spend money. do they want to risk spending money? now would be a good time to tell b/c of their record but they are stingy

This.

[niremetal]

Yes Blunt and I swear if Ted Turner ever got the Hawks back they would be marketed not just a hour away from the ATL, but in south Tenn. and South Georgia as well. I lived in Albany back in the early 70s before the superstation was super, and use to listen to the Braves every evening on the radio down there.

Captain Outrageous was a marketing genius. He inherited a small radio station and turned it into national and cable TV; as well as a two sport monolopy in the south with the Braves and Hawks...

Ted Turner didn't do that for the Hawks when he owned them before. Why on earth are you so sure he'd do it now?

He probably saw the obvious: pro basketball will never be the "big thing" in Atlanta. Smart businessman don't throw their money into investments with a low probability of return.

[Gray Mule]

There is an old saying, which I firmly believe is true:

TO MAKE MONEY, YOU MUST SPEND MONEY

(Now, my obvious question has always been: "If this is true, where do you get the money to start?)

If spending money to promote the Hawks would have no affect on them, then it makes sense not

to spend it. Kinda like throwing it in your commode and flushing it down.

However, if inviting folks to come to Atlanta from outside the 285 speedway and watch the Hawks

really worked and the Hawks spent money to achieve this and these people showed up, the money

should return with increased revenue. That would be the desired results.

Presently, they want to be Atlanta's Hawks. That's how they are promoted. To and for Atlanta.

Wouldn't it be nice if they were the Hawks of Albany and Birmingham and Chattanooga and

Western North Carolina and Northren Florida!

:helpsmilie:

[Buzzard]

Ted Turner didn't do that for the Hawks when he owned them before. Why on earth are you so sure he'd do it now?

He probably saw the obvious: pro basketball will never be the "big thing" in Atlanta. Smart businessman don't throw their money into investments with a low probability of return.

You must be way to young to remember Ted owning the Hawks or you just like to argue with me. Direct quote from Turners Wikipedia Bio: "He bought the Atlanta Braves and Atlanta Hawks in 1976 partially to provide programming for WTBS." He is also the one who spent the bucks on our team of all-stars during the best runs in our history; as well as allowing our GM to hire Hubie Brown ( hall of fame coach ), Lenny Wilkens ( hall of fame coach) and promote Mike Fratello ( ranks 19th among coaches in all time NBA win list ).

Nique was the human highlight reel and the Omni was the human highlight factory; we were also promoted as the Atlanta Air Force. Ted payed for those promotions to be aired daily on the radio and TV. When we signed Moses and Theus who payed for that? Come on man, even if you don't like me there is no way in heck you can say Ted did not spend money on marketing, GMs, coaches, and players when he owned the Hawks.

Article on Turner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Turner

Edited December 27, 2009 by Buzzard

[Dragitoff]

Yes Blunt and I swear if Ted Turner ever got the Hawks back they would be marketed not just a hour away from the ATL, but in south Tenn. and South Georgia as well. I lived in Albany back in the early 70s before the superstation was super, and use to listen to the Braves every evening on the radio down there.

Captain Outrageous was a marketing genius. He inherited a small radio station and turned it into national and cable TV; as well as a two sport monolopy in the south with the Braves and Hawks...

I live in the Albany area now and was just telling someone earlier tonight how hard it is to find a real Hawks fan where I live. My wife doesn't really like to watch basketball so I've been trying to find someone to go to a Hawks game with me. I finally found a guy at church that follows the Hawks. Maybe not as closely as I do, but he does watch the games and know the players. I think the hawks lost so many fans (fairweather albeit) during the lean years and it'll be tough to win them back. So many NBA fans are fans only of "who's winning". They love the Lakers and they love the Celtics. I don't think you see the die-hardness like you do with other sports. Sure there are the die-hard fans, but I'm talking about fans like Cubs fans. Fans who's team hasn't won anything in years still rooting them on like they're the best team in sports.

[Buzzard]

I live in the Albany area now and was just telling someone earlier tonight how hard it is to find a real Hawks fan where I live. My wife doesn't really like to watch basketball so I've been trying to find someone to go to a Hawks game with me. I finally found a guy at church that follows the Hawks. Maybe not as closely as I do, but he does watch the games and know the players. I think the hawks lost so many fans (fairweather albeit) during the lean years and it'll be tough to win them back. So many NBA fans are fans only of "who's winning". They love the Lakers and they love the Celtics. I don't think you see the die-hardness like you do with other sports. Sure there are the die-hard fans, but I'm talking about fans like Cubs fans. Fans who's team hasn't won anything in years still rooting them on like they're the best team in sports.

There is no doubt in my mind that basketball is the 3rd most popular sport in America. Just the way it is and has been for a long time. This does not mean it can not overtake football or baseball in a city, state, or region; provided the basketball team is on a upswing and football or baseball is on a downswing. Ted did not spend as much money on the Hawks as he did the Braves; but basketball only requires five starters, baseball eight everyday starters plus a huge payroll in your pitching rotation.

I think Ted saw a way to bring a championship to Atlanta, in a cheaper (by millionaire standards) yet still classy way, with the Hawks. And it almost worked!

Edited December 28, 2009 by Buzzard

[Endy9]

The Hawks would have no attendance problem if they were ever allowed to move to Gwinnett or Cobb on the north side. But citizens of downtown don't support them and northsiders that would don't want to have to travel down to Phillips more than a few times a year. The Atlanta power brokers won't ever allow it though.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The Hawks would have no attendance problem if they were ever allowed to move to Gwinnett or Cobb on the north side. But citizens of downtown don't support them and northsiders that would don't want to have to travel down to Phillips more than a few times a year. The Atlanta power brokers won't ever allow it though.

Well why do 30,000+ go to Turner Field during the spring and summer every night? Turner Field is what . . . 5 minutes outside of downtown?

The excuses simply have to stop, when the Hawks are this good. Maybe they'll come during the 2nd half of the season.

[Buzzard]

The Hawks would have no attendance problem if they were ever allowed to move to Gwinnett or Cobb on the north side. But citizens of downtown don't support them and northsiders that would don't want to have to travel down to Phillips more than a few times a year. The Atlanta power brokers won't ever allow it though.

I don't know if that would help to be honest. I lived in Cobb and worked for a while in Gwinnet. That is not a short commute. Its not the location IMO; its the fact we have been so bad for so long; and still do not have a dynamic superstar or a dynamic marketing effort. If the owners want the fair weather fans trust they are going to have to do better than a few early playoff exits.

Sorry but thats the way it is. It took the Braves and Falcons forever to recover from their dismal history. And northcyde thinks 30,000 is a lot of fans for a baseball game. The Reds have not made the playoffs in over a decade and get that many on a regular basis....

[Johnnybravo4]

One day you Gwinnetians will learn that everything doesn't revolve around you. A lot of the population also lives South, East and Northwest of town. If I live in Marietta or Decatur, why in the hell would I want to drive in I-85 traffic in order to go to a game on Sugarloaf? All of the stadiums are downtown because they are easier to get to from any one part of town. If you suburbians wouldn't be so scared all of the damn time with your Starbucks and Trader Joe's and Joe's Crab shacks then you could enjoy some of the finer points of living in a city.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I don't know if that would help to be honest. I lived in Cobb and worked for a while in Gwinnet. That is not a short commute. Its not the location IMO; its the fact we have been so bad for so long; and still do not have a dynamic superstar or a dynamic marketing effort. If the owners want the fair weather fans trust they are going to have to do better than a few early playoff exits.

Sorry but thats the way it is. It took the Braves and Falcons forever to recover from their dismal history. And northcyde thinks 30,000 is a lot of fans for a baseball game. The Reds have not made the playoffs in over a decade and get that many on a regular basis....

Exactly. And I know 30,000 isn't a lot of fans when you talk about baseball. I was just making the point that if 30,000 can make it to Braves games to a stadium that is basically in the downtown area, then the only thing keeping 17,000 PAID fans from making it to Hawks games on average, is their desire to see the team. Not anything else. Not the location or anything else like that.

If we play the Cavs on a Tuesday night, it's going to be packed. We all know that. And we all know why it will be packed.

If we play Golden St. on a Friday night, it may or may not be packed. That's the mentality that has to change. If adults and parents say that they can't make it to the weekday games . . . fine. Make a point to make it to the weekend games, no matter who we play.

The people that call themselves "Hawk fans" need to want to go see the Hawks . . . not the Hawks only when we play someone major.

Edited December 29, 2009 by northcyde

[LordOfNYork]

coming from NY and seeing philips arena, hawks fans are some of the worst...simply put. They have a top 5 team in the association and you can't pay them to be in their seats at the start of a game. It's pretty sad to see especially on TV

[niremetal]

Come on man, even if you don't like me there is no way in heck you can say Ted did not spend money on marketing, GMs, coaches, and players when he owned the Hawks.

Yup, I did just say that, or rather I said that he didn't spend more on those things than have other Hawks owners. The Hawks have never in the top quarter of the league in payroll, then or now, even when they've been in the top quarter of the league in wins and losses. They've never gotten higher than 8th in attendance no matter how many games the team has won. And to the best of my recollection, they've never been promoted nearly as heavily as the Braves, even when the Hawks were a playoff team and the Braves sucked. To mention those teams together as if they were promoted equally, as you did in your original post, is pretty amusing.

I don't care about you personally one way or the other. I didn't even see who had made the initial post. Seriously, I didn't. But feel free to believe that I did if you need it to satiate your ego.

I don't have access to their marketing budget, but based on their payrolls and attendance, the Hawks did not spend more when Ted owned them than they do now any way you view it - not in absolute terms, not compared to other NBA teams, and not adjusted for inflation. Just because you miss the "good old days" and loved the billboards and slogans from your days as a wide-eyes kid/teenager/whatever doesn't mean that they were actually some golden era in terms of having an owner willing to spend (and almost certainly lose) money on their pro basketball team. The Hawks still have billboards and slogans. And just like then, they aren't good/big/widespread enough to get actual asses into seats.

Beyond that, you're not going to be able to refute what I say, nor will I be able to refute what you say. Neither of us has access to marketing budgets or other information. All we have are anecdotes - yours of the blockbuster signings of Reggie Theus and the wonderfully original slogan for the Omni (hint: Other teams used "the highlight X" in team slogans before Nique and the Hawks, but YOU probably were too young to remember that), and mine of how I would see multiple Braves billboards for every Hawks billboard even when the Hawks were winning 50 games and the Braves losing 100. But feel free to pretend that your anecdotes and memories are good enough to conclusively establish that you're right and I'm wrong.

PS: The word "Hawks" only appears twice in Turner's bio that you linked to. But it said this about the Braves:

Turner turned the Atlanta Braves baseball team into a nationally popular franchise.

And under "Known for" it says "Owner of the Atlanta Braves," but not a peep about the Hawks.

And the third sentence under the Wikipedia Hawks page section discussing the period of Ted's ownership is:

Due to sagging attendance, 12 home games during the 1984–85 season were played at the Lakefront Arena in New Orleans, Louisiana. The New Orleans games were paid for by Barry Mendelson for $1.2 million with the Hawks going 6–6 in Louisiana.

Yup. Real marketing golden era for the Hawks, I tell ya.

Edited December 29, 2009 by niremetal