So tired of Joe's hotdoging bs!

[NineOhTheRino]

We are never going anywhere, as long as Joe continues to disappear against the good teams..

I think Joe needs to realize when he's not on. Well...Joe and Woody both have to understand that the offense has to go through more guys if Joe is off. But last night vs the Gang Green JJ was everything we needed in a #1. The man is hard to stop when that Jumper is falling. No complaints from me on that performance.

[niremetal]

I think Joe needs to realize when he's not on. Well...Joe and Woody both have to understand that the offense has to go through more guys if Joe is off. But last night vs the Gang Green JJ was everything we needed in a #1. The man is hard to stop when that Jumper is falling. No complaints from me on that performance.

I love how convenient some people's memories are, too. Rest assured, they'll forget about his performance last night by 3 weeks from now, and pretend again that Joe never has good games against good teams.

[D.R.P.]

Joe has definitely been back on his bs during the game today.

[niremetal]

I love how convenient some people's memories are, too. Rest assured, they'll forget about his performance last night by 3 weeks from now, and pretend again that Joe never has good games against good teams.

Joe has definitely been back on his bs during the game today.

Six days. My bad.

[gsuteke]

I haven't seen the box score because I've been at work but I suspect Joe had a decent game as this thread has been dug up.

And it'll get dug up again - and again - and again

[thecampster]

The Hawks problem isn't just Joe. It's play calling and design.

The hawks have taken 3362 shots as a team and are shooting 46.6%.

Joe Johnson has taken 737 of those shots (21.9% of the total number of team shots) and is shooting 45.2%.

Jamal Crawford has taken 532 of those shots (2nd on the team and 15.8 of the total number of team shots), shooting 45.1%.

Mike Bibby has taken 328 of those shots and is shooting 42.1%

Our 3 main guards have taken 47.5% of all team shots for 44.5%. The rest of the team has taken 53.5% of the shots and made them at a 48.6% clip. The entire team is shooting on average 4% better from the field than our 3 guards but are almost losing the total shots battle.

Horford and Smith are shooting a combined 54.3% and even though they've taken 414 less shots, Horford and Smith have taken 30 more free throws. When over the course of 40 games, your center and power forward only have 63 less assists (1.6 per game) less than your 2 main offensive guard threats, there is a problem. The problem is Woody and his lack of offensive reigns or understanding.

[DJlaysitup]

The Hawks problem isn't just Joe. It's play calling and design.

The hawks have taken 3362 shots as a team and are shooting 46.6%.

Joe Johnson has taken 737 of those shots (21.9% of the total number of team shots) and is shooting 45.2%.

Jamal Crawford has taken 532 of those shots (2nd on the team and 15.8 of the total number of team shots), shooting 45.1%.

Mike Bibby has taken 328 of those shots and is shooting 42.1%

Our 3 main guards have taken 47.5% of all team shots for 44.5%. The rest of the team has taken 53.5% of the shots and made them at a 48.6% clip. The entire team is shooting on average 4% better from the field than our 3 guards but are almost losing the total shots battle.

Horford and Smith are shooting a combined 54.3% and even though they've taken 414 less shots, Horford and Smith have taken 30 more free throws. When over the course of 40 games, your center and power forward only have 63 less assists (1.6 per game) less than your 2 main offensive guard threats, there is a problem. The problem is Woody and his lack of offensive reigns or understanding.

PIN THIS!!..the most intelligent post I have read in years.

Team shooting %age...............Make Camp the GM right now

Honestly camp - I hope your stats are true...I think they are. I usta follow the Celtics in the boxscores...and notices that their team FG%age was always pretty damned good.

Edited January 19, 2010 by DJlaysitup

[spotatl]

the campster- just out of curiosity if you took out the shots taken off of putbacks from offensive rebounds how do you think those numbers would look for Smith and Horford? The problem is that Horford and Smith are not good at creating their own shots- its TOUGH to get them high quality scoring opportunities.

[bonethugz]

his ego? maybe. he wanted to show the world that he is DA man. no matter how good crawford is. joe is still the man. i hope joe realize that.

as for the game, remember our offense "builds" around joe. ok iso joe, so it's his job to knock down the shots or finding open man. he should've know he's having an off game and should've passed the ball more/instead. one thing though. he's our man/shooter. he has the green light to shot. i don't blame him for shooting too much.

(there was one play though he should've passed it to crawford. crawford was open and right behind joe)

[AHF]

its TOUGH to get them high quality scoring opportunities.

It is very difficult to do that in our offense. Given the offense we are running, I don't think anyone should expect great results if you take away shots from the guards and give them to the forwards (i..e., give them the ball and tell them "go create something for yourself" like we do with the iso offense).

Also, we should really be looking at TS% - not FG%. There is less difference from that perspective:

Horford 61.5 TS%

Crawford 56.6 TS%

Bibby 54.3 TS%

Smoove 54.0 TS%

Marvin 53.6 TS%

JJ 53.3 TS%

[spotatl]

If you want to talk about dumping the ball down the Smith and Horford in the post- thats certainly a way to get them more shots. I don't think its a great idea but its a way to get them more shots. I just see Horford and Smith as guys who can be guys who need chances created for them. If You want Horford taking 20 foot jumpers he can certainly have that shot all day but its not something I want the Hawks at all relying on. He went 5 for 5 against the Suns so he can certainly be an asset there but its not a shot I want to see relied on.

But even looking at TS% in isolation I think its very misleading. (not to say its not a good stat) If you look at the Nuggets you would see Chris Andersen with a stellar 64.8 TS%. That doesn't mean the Nuggets should be running more of their offense through him. That 64% True shooting percentage is because the team is getting him the ball in position to do something good with it.

Edited January 19, 2010 by spotatl

[AHF]

But even looking at TS% in isolation I think its very misleading. (not to say its not a good stat) If you look at the Nuggets you would see Chris Andersen with a stellar 64.8 TS%. That doesn't mean the Nuggets should be running more of their offense through him. That 64% True shooting percentage is because the team is getting him the ball in position to do something good with it.

The TS% accurately reflects what people have done with opportunities given to them. As you point out, it doesn't say that this number would remain steady if the player's role changes. In fact, you can look at Crawford for an example of someone whose TS% radically changed when he went from being an inefficient top option on offense to an efficient second option (with the lesser defensive attention that this role brings). As I said in my prior post, I think that our forwards would see their %s drop if they were given the ball more often in our current offense and told to go create for themselves. I think each could more effectively score in a different system, though. It is certainly asking too much of this staff and the players to expect a new system to be implemented during the course of this year, so I am disagreeing with those that are saying that our guards have been a substantially less efficient source of offense than the rest of the team.

[jerrywest]

In fact, you can look at Crawford for an example of someone whose TS% radically changed when he went from being an inefficient top option on offense to an efficient second option

Just curious. What's Craw's TS% when Joe is off the court?

[AHF]

Just curious. What's Craw's TS% when Joe is off the court?

Someone else will have to research that one! Crawford's 56.6 TS% is well above his career average 52.0 TS%, though.

His other seasons in order:

55.5 TS% 2002 3rd perimeter option on offense

54.5 TS% 2009 2nd perimeter option (basically a three headed group with top scorer Stephen Jackson and nearly equal scorer Monta Ellis)

54.4 TS% 2006 2nd perimeter option (behind Starbury)

52.8 TS% 2008 Top perimeter option

52.1 TS% 2005 2nd perimeter option

51.7 TS% 2007 Top perimeter option

49.6 TS% 2003 2nd perimeter option

48.6 TS% 2004 Top perimeter option

This is the first season he has played with someone who draws consistent double teams on the perimeter and it is not a coincidence this is his best year shooting the ball.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

the campster- just out of curiosity if you took out the shots taken off of putbacks from offensive rebounds how do you think those numbers would look for Smith and Horford? The problem is that Horford and Smith are not good at creating their own shots- its TOUGH to get them high quality scoring opportunities.

Bingo.

But for the record, JJ was 3 - 8 FG in the 4th. Crawford 0 - 6 FG in the 4th ( after hitting two huge 3s to end the 3rd quarter ). Bibby 1 - 4 FG in the 4th ( missing wide open shots each time ) . . . . Total: 4 - 18 FG ( 22% )

Horford and Smith combined: 2 - 3 FG

The strange thing about that OKC game, is that we missed a TON of shots in the paint. Add that to the fact that we couldn't make wide open jumpers, and you have the recipe for what happened yesterday.

Hawks were 16 - 30 FG via shots at the rim. ( 53.4% ). That's below what we usually shoot at shots around the rim. That's probably due to the fact that we didn't get a lot of fast break points yesterday, especially in the 2nd half.

From within 10 feet to the rim, the Hawks were 6 - 20 ( 30% ) . . . From 3 point range, we were 4 - 16 FG ( 25% ) . . . lol. . . eFG% of 37.5% ( and we were 3 - 15 before Bibby hit that 3 with four seconds left ). When you look at a major reason why we lose games, these are the two areas offensively that we usually are horrible at. If the shots in the lane aren't falling, and especially if the 3 ball isn't falling, that's a recipe for disaster for us.

Strange stat of the day: Al Horford had a +/- rating of ( -16 ), by far the worst on the team. . . . . Zaza has a +/- rating of ( +13 ), by far the best on the team

[TheNorthCydeRises]

his ego? maybe. he wanted to show the world that he is DA man. no matter how good crawford is. joe is still the man. i hope joe realize that.

as for the game, remember our offense "builds" around joe. ok iso joe, so it's his job to knock down the shots or finding open man. he should've know he's having an off game and should've passed the ball more/instead. one thing though. he's our man/shooter. he has the green light to shot. i don't blame him for shooting too much.

(there was one play though he should've passed it to crawford. crawford was open and right behind joe)

I agree. I think at that point though, Crawford had missed 2 layups and a jumper. And was on his way to missing 3 more shots to go 0 - 6 FG for the 4th quarter. But you're right. JJ did take a tough shot with Crawford basically holding his hands up, signaling that he was wide open.

[jerrywest]

54.5 TS% 2009 2nd perimeter option (basically a three headed group with top scorer Stephen Jackson and nearly equal scorer Monta Ellis)

Ellis+Stephen+Maggette are far superior in offense than any 3 combination Craw has played with here or anywhere.

I think the rigid structure and the winning environment are the keys for him.

[thecampster]

the campster- just out of curiosity if you took out the shots taken off of putbacks from offensive rebounds how do you think those numbers would look for Smith and Horford? The problem is that Horford and Smith are not good at creating their own shots- its TOUGH to get them high quality scoring opportunities.

Sorry for the long reply....I sleep during the day.

Your question assumes that all of our players should be creating their own shot. Bibby, Teague, Crawford, Joe should be creating/distributing whenever possible. They should be instigating the motion and running off ball pick and rolls, etc.

Your question assumes that Horf and Smith are the only ones that "feed" off of others. Many times dumping the ball inside leads to a shooter being left open and a kick out. The wide open looks are no different than the putbacks for inflating stats. The in post double creates lane opportunities for cutters and creates tons of AND 1 opportunities. Jump shots...long jump shots create long rebounds. This is part of the reason our offensive rebound percentage is so high and also part of the reason other teams can run on us too. This is the main reason we get killed on the 3 and by opposing guards penetration so often. Long rebounds off of shooting misses give us less time to get back on defense and set up. Elongates the shot clock for the opponent and creates personal fouls and foul shots for the other team.

Playing inside in basketball is just like commiting to the run in football. It's not flashy, it's boring but it wins games and wins championships because playing inside takes the wind out of the other teams sails no different than running out the clock. If you need affirmation on this, watch the last game with Orlando. They set up everything from the low right post.

Edited January 19, 2010 by thecampster

[thecampster]

PIN THIS!!..the most intelligent post I have read in years.

Team shooting %age...............Make Camp the GM right now

Honestly camp - I hope your stats are true...I think they are. I usta follow the Celtics in the boxscores...and notices that their team FG%age was always pretty damned good.

Oh and I'll say this again. This team was made for Doug Collins to coach. This team is championship caliber right now with Doug Collins coaching them. He is the perfect fit.

[jerrywest]

JJ did take a tough shot with Crawford basically holding his hands up, signaling that he was wide open.

This happens in every game.