So tired of Joe's hotdoging bs!

[jerrywest]

I did watch it without emotion, at least with respect to JJ. And I re-watched it on DVR. I actually am not some huge JJ booster. He's no better than my third favorite starter after Horf and Bibby. But he's also the player (along with Marvin) who gets the most flak around here. Tonight it was undeserved.

JJ was not hogging the ball in the fourth quarter. He did not almost cost us the game. You only can come to that conclusion if you watch the game looking for plays where Joe messed up. But people remember the plays they want to remember. That's the way it goes, but I'm gonna call BS on it.

Watch the last 8 minutes of the game again and count how many times Joe contributed to the Celtics come back and how many times he contributed to our win.

He had many great games as a Hawk, but tonight a light bulb got to light up in his head that iso joe isn't the best option any more.

[gsuteke]

And I suppose the 50% of the game where we were, you know, playing defense are irrelevant? Because on several of those plays, you could very easily argue that JJ saved us the game. As I said, you have to watch damned selectively to come to the conclusion that Joe was the cause of us almost losing. You also have to willfully ignore the other plays where JJ rotated the ball to his teammates and only took two shots (both on the same possession, neither off an ISO and both good looks, although admittedly from the inefficient mid-range) in the final six minutes.

Oh, and on those three (yes, three) plays where JJ went ISO in the fourth? On only one of them did he have a teammate moving meaningfully to get open. And in the end, he only took 4 shots in the quarter and committed one turnover. If you want to selectively zero in on the two-minute stretch where he executed two unsuccessful ISOs (and Crawford missed one ill-advised shot on the possession before) and zero in on those three consecutive bad possessions as the cause of us almost losing...well, that's focusing only on the plays that you want to focus on. Someone else could just as easily focus on the Hawks' defensive lapses during the first 6 minutes of the quarter, virtually none of which can be blamed on JJ if you re-watch the game tape.

You're going to lose this argument if you continue to carry this flag. Even with Exodus' help. He'll jump in this thread tomorrow as he's a big Joe backer.

It was what it was tonight.

Joe didn't play well late in the game. We won thought and that's something that wouldn't have happened in the past.

It bodes well come playoff time. If Joe has a ridiculous game fine. If he has a 5-16 game like he does with regularity we can overcome it now.

\

\

\

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Watch the last 8 minutes of the game again and count how many times Joe contributed to the Celtics come back and how many times he contributed to our win.

He had many great games as a Hawk, but tonight a light bulb got to light up in his head that iso joe isn't the best option any more.

It's all about the Hawks

[gsuteke]

I just checked the box score. I swear 5-16 was a "general statement"

That was Joe's actual shooting numbers. We wouldn't have won this game a year ago.

[Gray Mule]

:write a letter:

5-16 Includes 2-4 from behind the arch. = 50 % from three point land!

However, when you remove that 2-4 from the 5-16 = 3-12 which is 25 % INSIDE the three point arch. Ugh. Not good.

JJ had 8 assists. Great! We really needed that.

JJ & Pierce both complained that the other one was fouling them.

Over and over, this happened. Either they did and was getting by

with it or they were both playing some good defense. Probably,

it was a little of both.

Pierce is good - In fact, very good. One thing that he is very good at. Drawing the foul.

He can cause a foul, almost without fail, any time he has the ball. He scores easily

or he goes to the line and scores. No wonder he was crying.

:stirthepot:

[HawksFan87]

Yeah, you're right. He took 2 fewer shots than his average, dished out 8 assists, and at least two of his turnovers should have been foul calls. I guess Joe shouldn't shoot at all when he's having a bad game, right? Oh, and just ignore the fact that he played outstanding defense, without which the Celtics would have won as well.

The standards that people hold their disfavored players to is truly mind-boggling. We all know how you feel about Joe. In your mind, Joe's not allowed to make up for an off night shooting by taking a couple fewer shots, getting a few more assists, and cranking up the defensive intensity. No, on nights like that, he has to pass the ball EVERY TIME and NEVER turn it over.

U r in denial...

[Antmillennium]

The fact of the matter is that Joe Johnson's ego is way out of control and he is primarily concerned about proving that he is deserving of a max contract. Joe Johnson has put his own selfish desires above the team. As a result, he has become a worse player, a worse teammate, and he has often become a detriment to his team this year. If Joe would stop being so selfish and actually concentrate on team goals instead of his own personal goals, he would actually put up better numbers and the team would have more chemistry. The ironic thing about this whole situation with Joe Johnson is that instead of proving himself to be a Max Contract type of player, his ball-hogging and ball-stopping style of play is actually proving to everyone that he's not deserving of a max contract. Joe is playing his way OUT of a max contract, and it's his own fault.

[gsuteke]

Who is the masked man that put a Negative on all my posts in this thread?

I think I was being rather reasonable.

[niremetal]

Who is the masked man that put a Negative on all my posts in this thread?

I think I was being rather reasonable.

Warn't me, believe it or not.

[Atlantaholic]

The fact of the matter is that Joe Johnson's ego is way out of control and he is primarily concerned about proving that he is deserving of a max contract. Joe Johnson has put his own selfish desires above the team. As a result, he has become a worse player, a worse teammate, and he has often become a detriment to his team this year. If Joe would stop being so selfish and actually concentrate on team goals instead of his own personal goals, he would actually put up better numbers and the team would have more chemistry. The ironic thing about this whole situation with Joe Johnson is that instead of proving himself to be a Max Contract type of player, his ball-hogging and ball-stopping style of play is actually proving to everyone that he's not deserving of a max contract. Joe is playing his way OUT of a max contract, and it's his own fault.

The truly ironic thing is that his Per minute stats are at an all time Hawk high, and he is having a much, MUCH better year than he did the last two years in every facet of the game except assists (and his assists per 36 minutes are barely down from the last four years). His defense has also been extremely good this year.

The ball hogging, ball stopping style of play is our teams style of play. Most of our points come from going one on one or passing off of one on ones, the only player on the team that actually knows how to get our other players in position to score easy baskets is Bibby. Our half-court offense is ugly, really. Our sets are lazy and we basically just run a few uninspired screens and then get out of the way of the player that has the ball. It is the Woodson offense, and little changes when JJ is out of the game (insert Crawford, rinse repeat). Our frontcourt is by far the most athletic and one of the most productive in the NBA, and our guards can score in bunches, when we run up and down the court we look like the most dangerous and explosive team in the league... but when the game grinds to a half court game we look consistently awful, and it is most definitely not JJ's fault, because we look even more awful when he goes to the bench.

[Crank]

The truly ironic thing is that his Per minute stats are at an all time Hawk high, and he is having a much, MUCH better year than he did the last two years in every facet of the game except assists (and his assists per 36 minutes are barely down from the last four years). His defense has also been extremely good this year.

The ball hogging, ball stopping style of play is our teams style of play. Most of our points come from going one on one or passing off of one on ones, the only player on the team that actually knows how to get our other players in position to score easy baskets is Bibby. Our half-court offense is ugly, really. Our sets are lazy and we basically just run a few uninspired screens and then get out of the way of the player that has the ball. It is the Woodson offense, and little changes when JJ is out of the game (insert Crawford, rinse repeat). Our frontcourt is by far the most athletic and one of the most productive in the NBA, and our guards can score in bunches, when we run up and down the court we look like the most dangerous and explosive team in the league... but when the game grinds to a half court game we look consistently awful, and it is most definitely not JJ's fault, because we look even more awful when he goes to the bench.

We dont look awful when JJ goes to the bench because hes on the bench we look awful because the only thing we have taught our young guys is how to stand around and watch JJ.

We looked fine running screen and rolls and Crawford is a guy who we could run off screens as well the problem is the more sets you put in for the other players the less likely you can go back to iso joe .

Woody is the one thats gonna pay the price ultimately for that

The sad thing about Joe is that hes no longer a guard hes much more of a small forward now .

[niremetal]

It is the Woodson offense, and little changes when JJ is out of the game (insert Crawford, rinse repeat).

What are you talking about? When Crawford comes into the game, it's totally different. Instead of JJ shooting fadeaways with 4 seconds on the clock, Jamal pulls up for a contested jumper with 17 seconds left on the clock. It's totally different! :snowballfight:

It is most certainly Woody's "style" of offense. On the Hawks, there is no offensive system in place designed to create ball movement and off-ball movement. Thus, it is up to the individual players to create ball movement and off-ball movement. JJ and Jamal are not point guards; they are scoring wings. So when you put the ball in their hands and ask them to create without an offensive system in place, of course they are going to look to shoot first. That's what shooting guards do. Kobe, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, D-Wade, Brandon Roy (seriously, go look at a Blazers Edge blog during Blazers games sometime, and it's eerie how similar their critiques of Roy are to those of JJ around here), Ray Allen/Paul Pierce, Vince Carter...etc, etc, etc.

The difference is that Wade is the only guy on that list who is asked to initiate the offense on a significant number of possessions while he's in the game (you can add Kobe to that list in the 4th quarter of a close game). And whaddya know? People deride Wade as a ballhog too.

Usually, a shooting guard works off the ball when the offensive set begins. But in Atlanta, JJ and Jamal (and formerly Flip) are asked to initiate the offense almost as often as Bibby when they are in the game. When you ask a shooting guard to do that without implementing a motion offense (Triangle, Princeton, flex, etc) of some kind, you shouldn't act surprised when the ball stops on a lot of possessions.

In Phoenix, JJ played off the ball when Nash was in the game, and played lead guard when Nash was resting - but he did it in the context of D'Antoni's system that emphasized rapid ball movement and constant off-ball movement to create open shots as early in the clock as possible. JJ was always considered an unselfish player in Phoenix, as D'Antoni himself has said. But in Atlanta, JJ and Jamal are playing in a "system" where neither ball movement OR off-ball movement (much less both) is engrained. In that type of system, you can't ask shooting guards to initiate the offense and expect them to play like Chris Paul.

Edited January 9, 2010 by niremetal

[coachx]

What are you talking about? When Crawford comes into the game, it's totally different. Instead of JJ shooting fadeaways with 4 seconds on the clock, Jamal pulls up for a contested jumper with 17 seconds left on the clock. It's totally different! :snowballfight:

It is most certainly Woody's "style" of offense. On the Hawks, there is no offensive system in place designed to create ball movement and off-ball movement. Thus, it is up to the individual players to create ball movement and off-ball movement. JJ and Jamal are not point guards; they are scoring wings. So when you put the ball in their hands and ask them to create without an offensive system in place, of course they are going to look to shoot first. That's what shooting guards do. Kobe, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, D-Wade, Brandon Roy (seriously, go look at a Blazers Edge blog during Blazers games sometime, and it's eerie how similar their critiques of Roy are to those of JJ around here), Ray Allen/Paul Pierce, Vince Carter...etc, etc, etc.

The difference is that Wade is the only guy on that list who is asked to initiate the offense on a significant number of possessions while he's in the game (you can add Kobe to that list in the 4th quarter of a close game). And whaddya know? People deride Wade as a ballhog too.

Usually, a shooting guard works off the ball when the offensive set begins. But in Atlanta, JJ and Jamal (and formerly Flip) are asked to initiate the offense almost as often as Bibby when they are in the game. When you ask a shooting guard to do that without implementing a motion offense (Triangle, Princeton, flex, etc) of some kind, you shouldn't act surprised when the ball stops on a lot of possessions.

In Phoenix, JJ played off the ball when Nash was in the game, and played lead guard when Nash was resting - but he did it in the context of D'Antoni's system that emphasized rapid ball movement and constant off-ball movement to create open shots as early in the clock as possible. JJ was always considered an unselfish player in Phoenix, as D'Antoni himself has said. But in Atlanta, JJ and Jamal are playing in a "system" where neither ball movement OR off-ball movement (much less both) is engrained. In that type of system, you can't ask shooting guards to initiate the offense and expect them to play like Chris Paul.

:thumbsupsmileyanim: Well said.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Good lord. So because JJ forces the issue a few times in the 4th quarter, he's a ball hog? i don't know what it is about this dude that turns people off so much. It's like people don't watch the other main guys across the league that do the exact same thing. Sometimes they are unsuccessful. Sometimes they're very successful. But it's like people look for reasons to dog JJ at times.

In that 4th quarter last night:

- he shot an air ball on a floater at the beginning of the quarter, in which Mike Breem ( the play by play announcer ) said that it was a lot of contact on the play. JJ should've been on the line. He doesn't air ball his floater unless he is fouled.

- he misses another floater in the lane in which he actually got past Pierce a little . . . a shot that he makes over 50% of the time.

- Pierce poked the ball away from JJ on a good defensive play. Shot clock was at 8 when Pierce made the play.

((( NOTE: you then have Jon Barry complaining about the Hawks going one on one isolation again, after Boston got the steal and the basket.

Keep in mind that the shot clock was at 14 seconds ANYWAY, when the Hawks inbounded the ball. When JJ received the ball and dribbled to the top of the key, the shot clock was at 12 seconds.

As JJ did his probe dribble to draw the double team, the guy that is open is Josh Smith, just to the right of the top of the key. JJ is NOTORIOUS for throwing the ball to Smoove when he's wide open on the perimeter. He's done it ever since he's been a Hawk. There's no way JJ would've taken a shot there, because he had both Pierce and Rondo in the area, because it would've been hella forced.

There's no doubt in my mind that JJ was about to pass that ball out to Smoove for a 20 foot jumper at the top of the key. Unfortunately, JJ dribbled the ball off his leg from the Pierce poke-away, and the C's go the other way and score.

Two possessions later, JJ is going to get the ball in an ISO situation AGAIN. Bibby has the ball and gets JJ the ball via a dribble handoff. As JJ receives the ball, Horford sets a light screen that JJ goes around. With Pierce a little behind him, and Perkins shadiing toward JJ ( who is dribbliing toward the lane ), JJ passes to Smoove, who is open on the right side, just outside the top of the key ( about 20 feet away ). Smoove gets the pass . . . takes an open shot . .. the crowd screams NOOOOOOO as the ball is in the air . . . and of course, the shot goes in )))

- JJ fouls Pierce on a shot ( announcers talk about how Pierce complained to the refs the entire time on the previous possession, in which Pierce thought he got fouled )

- JJ dribbles and comes around a Bibby screen . . then a Horford sets on Pierce, JJ shoots the ball from about 20 feet . . a semi-open look . . but he misses the shot.

Smoove hustles, and gets the rebound . . and passes it out to Bibby. Because we're up 5 with about 2:20 to go, Bibby then holds the ball for 10 - 12 seconds, before waiting for a pick from Horford. Bibby drives left, gets stuck . . but throws a great pass to Smoove down on the block, when he flashed to Bibby's side. Smoove has his shot blocked by Wallace, but grabs his own rebound with 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

Smoove then alertly sees that JJ is somewhat open in the corner. JJ catches the ball with 4 seconds on the clock, dribbles past Pierce on the baseline ( who was coming at him ), and takes a 15 footer with 3 seconds left on the clock.

So some of you are mad at JJ for THIS PERFORMANCE in the 4th? Really? He missed 2 shots that's usually money shots, a tougher 20 footer, and a floater that the refs didn't call a foul on.

Sorry folks, this is nit picking,

So basically, people are mad because he didn't make the shots that he normally makes? Of the 6 "mistakes" he made in the quarter, the Celtics got 5 points.

People call it ball hogging, but the "ball hooging" is the same reason why he had 8 assists. He had the ball in his hands all game and made good decisions throughout. His shot just wasn't falling in the 4th, and he couldn't get a call to take away one of those misses. It's funny . . . when he's killing people, nothing is said about how bad ISO JJ is. But when he misses a few shots, it's a big problem?

LOL . . he's ball hogging, but he passed to open shooters far more than he shot the ball. Even passed a ball to Smoove for an outside shot, that he made in that quarter.

The guy is our scorer. Scorers are going to force shots and miss shots at times. The two floaters in the lane and the shot he got from 15 feet, are shots I'll take from JJ any day of the week. And like I said, he should've been on the FT line on one of those missed floaters.

I've seen far worse out of JJ in the 4th quarter of a game, than what I saw last night.

[mrhonline]

Who is the masked man that put a Negative on all my posts in this thread?

I think I was being rather reasonable.

Ha! I should have done it. That would've been funny.

[gsuteke]

Ha! I should have done it. That would've been funny.

Hey go back and fix it will ya?

:handshake:

[mrhonline]

I just upped all of your posts on this page. LOL.

Ooooh...the power.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJ played a lot worse in the 1st quarter of tonight's game, than he did in the 4th of last night;s game

[HawksFan87]

We are never going anywhere, as long as Joe continues to disappear against the good teams..

[gsuteke]

I just upped all of your posts on this page. LOL.

Ooooh...the power.

"Hacked by MrH"

you tird burglar

LOL

I hope everyone gets this from the current thread. Opinons on Joe vary. Any reasonable opinion on Joe will at the very least be positive.

However sometimes we see some things we'd like to critique. I think we should be able do this without causing mass disruption on the board.

[mrhonline]

"Hacked by MrH"

you tird burglar

LOL

LOL. What should we do to AHF & Dolfan?