Josh and Joe

[Supporter]

They have to be the most dynamic duo in the league right now. Both of them are probably in their best stretch of the season (except the last two games for Joe). If we keep them together in the future, I really think that the hawks have a chance at a championship. We all know what Joe does on the offensive and defensive end, but the major question mark is Josh's offensive role. If he improves to become a sold 18 and 12 player like recently, I think that the duo can carry the hawks to a championship. I just don't see how if both of them are playing at their top levels, the hawks lose. I just don't see any other team with this type of dynamic duo.

Cleveland- Lebron James and thats it.

Orlando- Dwight Howard and thats it

I am not even going to mention the celtics because they are going to disappear next year.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have 2 second tier players, than 1 first tier player.

Or maybe I'm dreaming?

[HawkWeisErrr]

There are many guys that can average 20 pts per game if they were the go to guy on offense. If Joe played with more energy and enthusiasm and was more of a leader I could understand paying him to stay. But Joe isn't a leader. He isn't the one the team feeds off of. He's just a run up and down the court, dribble a bunch, score 20 and go home kind of player. I still can't get over him dribbling for about 15 seconds last night and still be dribbling when the shot clock went off. I think it's Josh that gets this team going.

[Supporter]

There are many guys that can average 20 pts per game if they were the go to guy on offense. If Joe played with more energy and enthusiasm and was more of a leader I could understand paying him to stay. But Joe isn't a leader. He isn't the one the team feeds off of. He's just a run up and down the court, dribble a bunch, score 20 and go home kind of player. I still can't get over him dribbling for about 15 seconds last night and still be dribbling when the shot clock went off. I think it's Josh that gets this team going.

Instead of hating on Joe, maybe you can appreciate the level of talent this team has in their top two players. I'd rather have two players that can play like MVP's at times, rather than a Lebron. Joe and Jamal are probably the only guys on this team that can score 20 points in this offensive system, being the go to guy.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Supporter

[HawkWeisErrr]

Instead of hating on Joe, maybe you can appreciate the level of talent this team has in their top two players. I'd rather have two players that can play like MVP's at times, rather than a Lebron. Joe and Jamal are probably the only guys on this team that can score 20 points in this offensive system, being the go to guy.

So you don't think Josh could average 20 pts if he was the go to guy on offense? He's averaging 15.8 now has very few designed plays in his favor. Come on, you really don't believe he couldn't get 5 more ppg do you?

[buckeye242424]

There are many guys that can average 20 pts per game if they were the go to guy on offense. If Joe played with more energy and enthusiasm and was more of a leader I could understand paying him to stay. But Joe isn't a leader. He isn't the one the team feeds off of. He's just a run up and down the court, dribble a bunch, score 20 and go home kind of player. I still can't get over him dribbling for about 15 seconds last night and still be dribbling when the shot clock went off. I think it's Josh that gets this team going.

Josh does everything, but he's not the leader. Joe is. I think that was evident against the Bucks in OT, at home. We lost a game to Dallas we should have won at home....then a hot Bucks team takes us to the ropes. But in OT, one guy willed us to a W, and that was Joe. He knew the pressure, the let-down if we lost two in a row at home in OT. Could have been demoralizing. Joe stepped up and delivered....

I've been as critical as anyone about our offense, and I don't like seeing the pounding of the ball and no movement...but it is what it is, and I've accepted it. Joe knows this, put the team on his back and won the game for us. He's the leader. I don't know what will happen this summer, but not having Joe on the team in 10-11 will be a nightmare...at least in the beginning. All our Hawks rely on him, him not being here would not be a good thing.

[Supporter]

So you don't think Josh could average 20 pts if he was the go to guy on offense? He's averaging 15.8 now has very few designed plays in his favor. Come on, you really don't believe he couldn't get 5 more ppg do you?

No, not unless he refines his perimeter game.

[HawkWeisErrr]

Josh does everything, but he's not the leader. Joe is. I think that was evident against the Bucks in OT, at home. We lost a game to Dallas we should have won at home....then a hot Bucks team takes us to the ropes. But in OT, one guy willed us to a W, and that was Joe. He knew the pressure, the let-down if we lost two in a row at home in OT. Could have been demoralizing. Joe stepped up and delivered....

I've been as critical as anyone about our offense, and I don't like seeing the pounding of the ball and no movement...but it is what it is, and I've accepted it. Joe knows this, put the team on his back and won the game for us. He's the leader. I don't know what will happen this summer, but not having Joe on the team in 10-11 will be a nightmare...at least in the beginning. All our Hawks rely on him, him not being here would not be a good thing.

Without Josh the game wouldn't have went to OT. They would have beat us soundly.

[buckeye242424]

Without Josh the game wouldn't have went to OT. They would have beat us soundly.

Well, that's like saying without a shot by Horf at the end of third, or Craws steal and bucket mid way through the fourth...we would have lost.

I know Smoove is intregal to the Hawks success, but to answer the question in the initial thread....who's the leader? Joe is the leader. It's apparent to me. I bet if you polled the TEAM, the majority would state that Joe is the leader. Joe's the man on this team and Smoove is his "Pippen" if you will....Poor comparison because neither are the legends, but Joe is the engine that makes us run this year. Smoove is capable of taking on this role, and he may have to next year...but not the 09/10 Hawks.

[HawkWeisErrr]

Well, that's like saying without a shot by Horf at the end of third, or Craws steal and bucket mid way through the fourth...we would have lost.

I know Smoove is intregal to the Hawks success, but to answer the question in the initial thread....who's the leader? Joe is the leader. It's apparent to me. I bet if you polled the TEAM, the majority would state that Joe is the leader. Joe's the man on this team and Smoove is his "Pippen" if you will....Poor comparison because neither are the legends, but Joe is the engine that makes us run this year. Smoove is capable of taking on this role, and he may have to next year...but not the 09/10 Hawks.

Well Woodson said Josh is probably the teams MVP this year.

[HawksFan87]

Al is more of a leader than Joe is lol.. And Smoove is the emotional leader.. Your best player doesn't always equal a great leader..

[buckeye242424]

Al is the vocal leader and Smoove is the emotional leader. I love em both, and I hate writing that they're inferior in any facet or any opinion. Then there's the "but"...

Joe is the leader, and he does it only by his ability to play basketball. Which is special. Otherwise, he has no star qualitites. He doesn't:

say anything on the court or in the huddle, do commercials, complain to refs, tweet, have a shoe, have a mug shot, appear on TV or radio, or....care what people think.

Joe makes this team go, I don't like thinking about him not being on the floor...we would not be the same.

Edited March 3, 2010 by buckeye242424

[RedDawg#8]

Joe is our best player, but has never been much of a great leader.

Josh is the energy and fuel.

Al is the heart, grit and determination

and just for kicks, Crawford is the "difference"

For example, compare us to a car (Im clearly bored):

Josh is the fuel, the more he burns, the faster we go

Al is the engine, he does all the tough work that isnt seen by the outside

Joe is the wheels, the entire team sits on top of him

without any of them, we dont go anywhere

also:

Craw is like 4 wheel drive, gives us a different aspect that we lacked, makes us more versitile

Bibby is the Steering wheel that points us in the right direction

Woody is the driver who steers the car, but falls asleep at the wheel from time to time.

[Admin]

No, not unless he refines his perimeter game.

Really? Well let's see, Joe has taken 389 more shots and scored 351 more points than Josh this year. If we increase Josh's FG attempts (at his current 52% mark) to the level of Joe and assume that they're all 2pt attempts (since he rarely attempts 3's now) that means that he'll make 202 of them for 404 points. That doesn't even taken into consideration the fact that in attempting that many more shots he is guaranteed to get to the FT line significantly more. So adding that 404 points to his current total of 931 would put him at 1335 (+53 compared to Joe) and divide that by the number of games he's played (59) we'll get a PPG average of 22.6.

Now let's look at the FG% that Josh would have to shoot (assuming no 3's and no FT's) for him to average less than 20PPG while still giving him the same number of shots that Joe has taken. 19.99 PPG times 59 games is 1179 points, which is 248 more points than he has actually scored right now. So giving him 389 more shots and limiting him to only 248 points (124 FG makes again assuming no 3's and no FT's) would mean his FG% on those extra shots would be 32%. So in order for Josh to not be a 20PPG scorer while giving him the same number of shots as Joe gets he would have to see a 20% drop in his current FG% and a 14% drop in his career FG%, neither of which seem likely to me.

[Dnice]

So now instead of Josh and Joe , it's turned into Josh vs Joe... lol

[Admin]

There are many guys that can average 20 pts per game if they were the go to guy on offense. If Joe played with more energy and enthusiasm and was more of a leader I could understand paying him to stay. But Joe isn't a leader. He isn't the one the team feeds off of. He's just a run up and down the court, dribble a bunch, score 20 and go home kind of player. I still can't get over him dribbling for about 15 seconds last night and still be dribbling when the shot clock went off. I think it's Josh that gets this team going.

I don't think you're being fair in stating that Joe isn't a leader, especially considering how the players almost to a man have been quoted over the years as saying he's the unquestionable leader of this team. And to say that they don't feed off of him is silly, just look at how the team plays on both ends of the court when Joe is on a hot streak.

I think that Josh is unquestionably the emotional spark (I won't say leader) of this team because his play and his attitude have significantly more of an impact on the rest of the team than that of anyone else. He has the ability to fire us up and get us to play at levels of energy and enthusiasm that nobody else can get them to. But at the same time he can also drop the level of energy and enthusiasm for the remainder of the team to levels lower than anyone else can when he's that way himself.

[NineOhTheRino]

They have to be the most dynamic duo in the league right now. Both of them are probably in their best stretch of the season (except the last two games for Joe). If we keep them together in the future, I really think that the hawks have a chance at a championship. We all know what Joe does on the offensive and defensive end, but the major question mark is Josh's offensive role. If he improves to become a sold 18 and 12 player like recently, I think that the duo can carry the hawks to a championship. I just don't see how if both of them are playing at their top levels, the hawks lose. I just don't see any other team with this type of dynamic duo.

Cleveland- Lebron James and thats it.

Orlando- Dwight Howard and thats it

I am not even going to mention the celtics because they are going to disappear next year.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have 2 second tier players, than 1 first tier player.

Or maybe I'm dreaming?

not giving those 2 enough credit.

I don't like LeBron. I hate don't like how he carries himself on the court. All the the carrying on and buffoonery is way past enough IMHO. But...I have no doubt that if LeBron wanted to go for a 20/20/20 triple double against the Hawks he would get it with medium effort. Still give me JJ all day. Sure Bron is better but Joe and gang are more likable and that actually matter more to me.

Edited March 3, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[niremetal]

Joe is our best player, but has never been much of a great leader.

Josh is the energy and fuel.

Al is the heart, grit and determination

and just for kicks, Crawford is the "difference"

For example, compare us to a car (Im clearly bored):

Josh is the fuel, the more he burns, the faster we go

Al is the engine, he does all the tough work that isnt seen by the outside

Joe is the wheels, the entire team sits on top of him

without any of them, we dont go anywhere

also:

Craw is like 4 wheel drive, gives us a different aspect that we lacked, makes us more versitile

Bibby is the Steering wheel that points us in the right direction

Woody is the driver who steers the car, but falls asleep at the wheel from time to time.

Post of the year.

[NineOhTheRino]

Joe is our best player, but has never been much of a great leader.

Josh is the energy and fuel.

Al is the heart, grit and determination

and just for kicks, Crawford is the "difference"

For example, compare us to a car (Im clearly bored):

Josh is the fuel, the more he burns, the faster we go

Al is the engine, he does all the tough work that isnt seen by the outside

Joe is the wheels, the entire team sits on top of him

without any of them, we dont go anywhere

also:

Craw is like 4 wheel drive, gives us a different aspect that we lacked, makes us more versitile

Bibby is the Steering wheel that points us in the right direction

Woody is the driver who steers the car, but falls asleep at the wheel from time to time.

Marvin is the $600 car note that's due at the 1st of the month

[AHF]

They have to be the most dynamic duo in the league right now. Both of them are probably in their best stretch of the season (except the last two games for Joe). If we keep them together in the future, I really think that the hawks have a chance at a championship. We all know what Joe does on the offensive and defensive end, but the major question mark is Josh's offensive role. If he improves to become a sold 18 and 12 player like recently, I think that the duo can carry the hawks to a championship. I just don't see how if both of them are playing at their top levels, the hawks lose. I just don't see any other team with this type of dynamic duo.

Cleveland- Lebron James and thats it.

Orlando- Dwight Howard and thats it

I am not even going to mention the celtics because they are going to disappear next year.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have 2 second tier players, than 1 first tier player.

Or maybe I'm dreaming?

I'd take Lebron over both of them for sure if I am being objective about it.

Bibby/Crawford/Lebron/Horford/Insert Center That Wants to Play with Lebron Such as Zyndrunas

That lineup is better than Cleveland's lineup and they are favorites to make the NBA finals from the East.

You are virtually always better off having the best player in the NBA on your team if your goal is to win a championship.

[dhawk]

Really? Well let's see, Joe has taken 389 more shots and scored 351 more points than Josh this year. If we increase Josh's FG attempts (at his current 52% mark) to the level of Joe and assume that they're all 2pt attempts (since he rarely attempts 3's now) that means that he'll make 202 of them for 404 points. That doesn't even taken into consideration the fact that in attempting that many more shots he is guaranteed to get to the FT line significantly more. So adding that 404 points to his current total of 931 would put him at 1335 (+53 compared to Joe) and divide that by the number of games he's played (59) we'll get a PPG average of 22.6.

Now let's look at the FG% that Josh would have to shoot (assuming no 3's and no FT's) for him to average less than 20PPG while still giving him the same number of shots that Joe has taken. 19.99 PPG times 59 games is 1179 points, which is 248 more points than he has actually scored right now. So giving him 389 more shots and limiting him to only 248 points (124 FG makes again assuming no 3's and no FT's) would mean his FG% on those extra shots would be 32%. So in order for Josh to not be a 20PPG scorer while giving him the same number of shots as Joe gets he would have to see a 20% drop in his current FG% and a 14% drop in his career FG%, neither of which seem likely to me.

Actually Josh would be shooting closer to 60% if he eliminated the 15-20 foot jumpers, but I'm sure he's trying to keep the defense honest. The flaw in expanding out Josh field goal attempts is the defenses reaction to him being the goto guy putting up most of the shots, hitting at a high clip. Sorry, but he would see a whole lot more double-teams than the few he is seeing now, forcing him to either make difficult shots over multiple defenders or pass the ball (but he has to get it back to get his shots for your numbers to work), so either a re-entry pass and the defense falls down or Josh starts taking multiple guys off-the-dribble and continue to score at a high clip. There is a symbiotic relationship working here. It's not Josh vs Joe, its Josh & Joe. The more one excels, it should be easier for the other to do the same. Joe has been Joe, Josh is figuring out how to be Josh, which means playing at his full potential and dominating people.