State of the franchise

[Sothron]

I posted this on realgm and as I thought about it this is pretty much the state of our franchise.

1. Mike Woodson is not a real head coach. He is on record as saying he "doesn't give a **** about offense" to explain why he has ZERO and I mean ZERO offensive systems or play calling. Our guards literally call all the plays which is why you see one on five basketball when Joe or Crawford go iso all game long. Not only that he makes ZERO adjustments. We play a switching defense because our starting point guard is horrible and we still won't make adjustments for it other than switching.

2. We don't have a real offense because of the above. We have two of the most talented big guys in the NBA in Horford and Smoove and yet both of them have to scrape for shots because they never get fed the ball. I've NEVER seen a team that has an All Star center and a guy who should be an All Star af PF NEVER give their bigs a chance to score on a consistent basis.

3. We have TWO STARTERS who contribute NOTHING. Think about that. We have a PG in Bibby who should NOT have been resigned. He is slower than slow. He gets routinely eaten alive on defense by quicker point guards which is why we switch ALL THE TIME. Marvin? Please. He plays decent defense and rebounds well for his position, that's it. I mean...that's IT. He doesn't do anything on offense. Bibby will occasionally drift around the three point line to find a spot and that's it.

4. We have NO BENCH outside of Crawford and Zaza. We have a talented young point guard in Teague who never sees the light of day because our coach hates rookie point guards. The other guys don't do anything except fill in for spot minutes. Evans is a decent defensive perimeter guy and that's it. Joe Smith is officially done.

5. Our ownership is still in turmoil and is cheap as hell. This is the only playoff team IIRC that did not use the mid level exception to try and bring in someone. They don't even have a full scouting department. They played cheap ball with Josh Childress which is why he's in Greece and if Memphis hadn't signed Josh Smith to a contract (which forced them to match) he would have been gone as well. So we don't bring in free agents and we don't take salary back to try and be a better team.

6. Our entire team is literally Joe Johnson, Al Horford, Josh Smith and Crawford. Our entire team's offense and defense is built on three starters and a "sixth man" who plays almost as many minutes as a starter. No team is going to win in the playoffs when you can count on less than ONE HAND the number of guys who actually DO SOMETHING on the court.

What this team needs is for ownership to finally invest in it and bring in a REAL head coach and trying to get players back in a Joe Johnson sign and trade. We need to bite the bullet and dump Bibby and Marvin for whatever we can get. This team might not make the playoffs for a year but we desperately need a real head coach who can count on FIVE STARTERS and an active bench and NOT what you see with this team: four guys who don't have a real coach trying to win by themselves.

[Guest]

3. We have TWO STARTERS who contribute NOTHING. Think about that. We have a PG in Bibby who should NOT have been resigned. He is slower than slow. He gets routinely eaten alive on defense by quicker point guards which is why we switch ALL THE TIME. Marvin? Please. He plays decent defense and rebounds well for his position, that's it. I mean...that's IT. He doesn't do anything on offense. Bibby will occasionally drift around the three point line to find a spot and that's it.

Over the off-season I wanted to resign Bibby. Its evident though that in our current defensive scheme he is useless. Its a shame we cannot figure out a defense where he isn't as big of a liability. We should be exploring options for trading him, but I don't think we will get much of anything. Maybe Portland still wants him? But for some reason I think Portland never wanted him in the first place, they just wanted to send that signal to the rest of the league.

And on a side not Sothron, you've been a fairly active poster for at least half a year now. You think its time to bring Hawksquawk back from the grave on your signature?

[Hoopsterino]

I agree with your "dump" philosophy but the Hawks will only get "bank foreclosure" offers for the comatose players involved.

[thescout]

I posted this on realgm and as I thought about it this is pretty much the state of our franchise.

1. Mike Woodson is not a real head coach. He is on record as saying he "doesn't give a **** about offense" to explain why he has ZERO and I mean ZERO offensive systems or play calling. Our guards literally call all the plays which is why you see one on five basketball when Joe or Crawford go iso all game long. Not only that he makes ZERO adjustments. We play a switching defense because our starting point guard is horrible and we still won't make adjustments for it other than switching.

2. We don't have a real offense because of the above. We have two of the most talented big guys in the NBA in Horford and Smoove and yet both of them have to scrape for shots because they never get fed the ball. I've NEVER seen a team that has an All Star center and a guy who should be an All Star af PF NEVER give their bigs a chance to score on a consistent basis.

3. We have TWO STARTERS who contribute NOTHING. Think about that. We have a PG in Bibby who should NOT have been resigned. He is slower than slow. He gets routinely eaten alive on defense by quicker point guards which is why we switch ALL THE TIME. Marvin? Please. He plays decent defense and rebounds well for his position, that's it. I mean...that's IT. He doesn't do anything on offense. Bibby will occasionally drift around the three point line to find a spot and that's it.

4. We have NO BENCH outside of Crawford and Zaza. We have a talented young point guard in Teague who never sees the light of day because our coach hates rookie point guards. The other guys don't do anything except fill in for spot minutes. Evans is a decent defensive perimeter guy and that's it. Joe Smith is officially done.

5. Our ownership is still in turmoil and is cheap as hell. This is the only playoff team IIRC that did not use the mid level exception to try and bring in someone. They don't even have a full scouting department. They played cheap ball with Josh Childress which is why he's in Greece and if Memphis hadn't signed Josh Smith to a contract (which forced them to match) he would have been gone as well. So we don't bring in free agents and we don't take salary back to try and be a better team.

6. Our entire team is literally Joe Johnson, Al Horford, Josh Smith and Crawford. Our entire team's offense and defense is built on three starters and a "sixth man" who plays almost as many minutes as a starter. No team is going to win in the playoffs when you can count on less than ONE HAND the number of guys who actually DO SOMETHING on the court.

What this team needs is for ownership to finally invest in it and bring in a REAL head coach and trying to get players back in a Joe Johnson sign and trade. We need to bite the bullet and dump Bibby and Marvin for whatever we can get. This team might not make the playoffs for a year but we desperately need a real head coach who can count on FIVE STARTERS and an active bench and NOT what you see with this team: four guys who don't have a real coach trying to win by themselves.

Great post Sothron! I have to agree with all your points about the Hawks. There are simply to many quesitons on this team to make a run in the future for a championship. Just adding a few pieces here or there isn't going to get the job done. Looking at the positions here are a few thoughts.

1.Marvin - can play defense and rebound thats it. A small forward needs to provide offense and Marvin simply will never be an offensive threat nightly in the league.

2.Bibby - I was afraid this was going to happen. Bibby had a decent to good year last year and now that he has the money goes back to being a player who shouldn't be the leader at point guard.

3.Horford - does a good job vs most centers but will always be undersized vs Dwight. If the Hawks want to move forward they must put Horford at power forward. That would mean Smoove gets traded most likely since I doubt he can hang with the small forwards in the league.

4.JJ - puts up good regular season stats but always falls short in the playoffs.No way do I sign him to a max deal. A sign and trade would be best. Rem,ember the Hawks acquired JJ on a sign and trade.

5.Smoove - plays well during the season but when forced to play vs big or bigger plays can't get the job done. Trade bait!

This team is as far as it can go with Woody and the roster. I wouldn't mind gettting rid of Bibby,Marvin and JJ but at this point everyone is trade bait except Horford.How do you beat a team with Dwight on it?

1.You must have a superstar on your team or a team similar to the old Detroit Pistons who had Dumars,Thomas,Laimbeer. Right now the Hawks don't have a superstar.

2.Cleveland and Boston have exchangeable parts at center. Not only do you need very good players at all positions or at least one superstar but notice how Cleveland and Boston have built their teams.They don't have star centers which are rare.You have to have 2-3 players that can slow Dwight down and the rest of the positions have to beat their man.

This really is a team with a bunch of parts and when they face higher caliber teams get dismantled. We need a few Jerry West moves but I doubt Sund has that ability to pull a few rabbits out of the hat. Maybe the Hawks need to let Teague play and go with the growing pains he'll have. Bibby can only take you so far and having him and Marvin in the same lineup will ultimately kill your team vs better teams.Horford needs to be playing power forward and trading Smoove will hurt but I think the bigger gain is a more productive lineup having a legit small forward who can score. You either need a quality small or point guard for Smoove.We have Teague already so I don't know who maybe available but you don't give Smoove away for less.

[Sothron]

Over the off-season I wanted to resign Bibby. Its evident though that in our current defensive scheme he is useless. Its a shame we cannot figure out a defense where he isn't as big of a liability. We should be exploring options for trading him, but I don't think we will get much of anything. Maybe Portland still wants him? But for some reason I think Portland never wanted him in the first place, they just wanted to send that signal to the rest of the league.

And on a side not Sothron, you've been a fairly active poster for at least half a year now. You think its time to bring Hawksquawk back from the grave on your signature?

I thought my sig was changed? What's it displaying?

[Guest]

I thought my sig was changed? What's it displaying?

ESPN.com 1997-2001

Realgm.com 2001 - 2006

Hawksquawk 2006 - 2007

Atlanta sports fan: 1976 - Lifetime

I thought it might have something to do with supplying inside information, but then what would being an Atlanta sports fan have to do with inside information?

[Sothron]

I thought it might have something to do with supplying inside information, but then what would being an Atlanta sports fan have to do with inside information?

I only had real inside info for about a year before I told the people I was out of the "insider" business. The sig is in reference to where I've posted and how long at each spot. I need to redo the sig again.

[DreamChaser]

During this season, all five of our starters have shown sparks of great talent, however, I did not think the coaches capitalized on these players strengths by devising offensive plays. Honestly, I think all five starters have had games where they have scored 20 plus points, and then the next game, they have less than 10 points.

The offensive plays absolutely sucked. One player has the ball and plays against four men on defense and the other four players become spectators. These men are supposed to be professional basketball players, not middle schoolers.

Our team needs a true center to play against those big men, and our bench has to be deeper/.

[jezmund]

If only we could use JJ to get rid of Bibby and Josh Smith to get rid of Marvin's contract. An opt out of Mo Evans would be the icing on the cake along with improving in the coaching department.

[AHF]

I posted this on realgm and as I thought about it this is pretty much the state of our franchise.

1. Mike Woodson is not a real head coach. He is on record as saying he "doesn't give a **** about offense" to explain why he has ZERO and I mean ZERO offensive systems or play calling. Our guards literally call all the plays which is why you see one on five basketball when Joe or Crawford go iso all game long. Not only that he makes ZERO adjustments. We play a switching defense because our starting point guard is horrible and we still won't make adjustments for it other than switching.

2. We don't have a real offense because of the above. We have two of the most talented big guys in the NBA in Horford and Smoove and yet both of them have to scrape for shots because they never get fed the ball. I've NEVER seen a team that has an All Star center and a guy who should be an All Star af PF NEVER give their bigs a chance to score on a consistent basis.

3. We have TWO STARTERS who contribute NOTHING. Think about that. We have a PG in Bibby who should NOT have been resigned. He is slower than slow. He gets routinely eaten alive on defense by quicker point guards which is why we switch ALL THE TIME. Marvin? Please. He plays decent defense and rebounds well for his position, that's it. I mean...that's IT. He doesn't do anything on offense. Bibby will occasionally drift around the three point line to find a spot and that's it.

4. We have NO BENCH outside of Crawford and Zaza. We have a talented young point guard in Teague who never sees the light of day because our coach hates rookie point guards. The other guys don't do anything except fill in for spot minutes. Evans is a decent defensive perimeter guy and that's it. Joe Smith is officially done.

5. Our ownership is still in turmoil and is cheap as hell. This is the only playoff team IIRC that did not use the mid level exception to try and bring in someone. They don't even have a full scouting department. They played cheap ball with Josh Childress which is why he's in Greece and if Memphis hadn't signed Josh Smith to a contract (which forced them to match) he would have been gone as well. So we don't bring in free agents and we don't take salary back to try and be a better team.

6. Our entire team is literally Joe Johnson, Al Horford, Josh Smith and Crawford. Our entire team's offense and defense is built on three starters and a "sixth man" who plays almost as many minutes as a starter. No team is going to win in the playoffs when you can count on less than ONE HAND the number of guys who actually DO SOMETHING on the court.

What this team needs is for ownership to finally invest in it and bring in a REAL head coach and trying to get players back in a Joe Johnson sign and trade. We need to bite the bullet and dump Bibby and Marvin for whatever we can get. This team might not make the playoffs for a year but we desperately need a real head coach who can count on FIVE STARTERS and an active bench and NOT what you see with this team: four guys who don't have a real coach trying to win by themselves.

I agree with just about all of this. I would say that if we can't get value for Bibby and Marvin, though, I wouldn't deal them. For Bibby, we will need support at the PG position as Teague transitions. If we are using him as a backup, I see some value there for Bibby still. Not worth his contract, but if we are not getting value or shedding the $$s, then I would keep him.

Same thought for Marvin except I also would like to see him playing for a different coach and preferably one that wants to organize an offense, set some screens, and run some plays.

[frosgrim]

Good post Soth. The franchise is at a critical juncture just as it's had one of it's most successful regular seasons. The real problem is that the magic have destroyed the hawks across the board. It will be interesting to see how Sund fixes the team and if he ASG can provide the funds to make a full repair.

The easiest fix will be to replace Woodson. They can do his on the cheap by promoting internally- mark price anyone?

JJ is a huge problem. I have no idea what the market will be for him. Other teams have to see his lack of performance, so he prob won't get a max deal, but all it takes is one team to believe (Knicks?). If another team is interested Sund has to pull off a snt, some roster return is needed for joe's sallary slot.

The real problem is how to deal wihh the perpetual problems at pg and c? This is where Sund has to show his creativity and cap management. If Sund can fix either position in the off season, I think he'll get the fans back. Problem is what is the solution at center? Kaman? Hibbert? There just isn't much out there.

For pg, Teague may actually be the solution. Another idea is to work a series of trades with the Nets that give them jj and us Harris but also give NJ one of our points. Not sure this would really work.

In all the franchise is maxed out on what it can do under it's current configuration. It may be that the best solution is to really blow it up and hope fir lotto gold

[Sothron]

Good post Soth. The franchise is at a critical juncture just as it's had one of it's most successful regular seasons. The real problem is that the magic have destroyed the hawks across the board. It will be interesting to see how Sund fixes the team and if he ASG can provide the funds to make a full repair.

The easiest fix will be to replace Woodson. They can do his on the cheap by promoting internally- mark price anyone?

JJ is a huge problem. I have no idea what the market will be for him. Other teams have to see his lack of performance, so he prob won't get a max deal, but all it takes is one team to believe (Knicks?). If another team is interested Sund has to pull off a snt, some roster return is needed for joe's sallary slot.

The real problem is how to deal wihh the perpetual problems at pg and c? This is where Sund has to show his creativity and cap management. If Sund can fix either position in the off season, I think he'll get the fans back. Problem is what is the solution at center? Kaman? Hibbert? There just isn't much out there.

For pg, Teague may actually be the solution. Another idea is to work a series of trades with the Nets that give them jj and us Harris but also give NJ one of our points. Not sure this would really work.

In all the franchise is maxed out on what it can do under it's current configuration. It may be that the best solution is to really blow it up and hope fir lotto gold

Thanks. I agree with some of your ideas. If the Nets get Wall then Harris is out the door. He's one of the pure points we could potentially get in a JJ S/T if JJ wanted to sign there or we could get some kind of three team trade going. The problem with any JJ S/T is that JJ holds the cards. He would get more money if we did a ST but he needs to want to go to that team or as I said some kind of three team trade would be needed. Those aren't likely.

[frosgrim]

Good point on JJ not wanting to go to the nets. Chicago makes the most sense if Joe wants a near complete team. This means Hinrich. Not terrible but not great either. Definately a step down in tallent. Tyrus Thomas might be part of tha deal as well. This would give the hawks some roster depth to make another move.

I am just not certain that another rebuild isn't in order given he hawks have to deal with howard and James

[Vol4ever]

I posted this on realgm and as I thought about it this is pretty much the state of our franchise.

1. Mike Woodson is not a real head coach. He is on record as saying he "doesn't give a **** about offense" to explain why he has ZERO and I mean ZERO offensive systems or play calling. Our guards literally call all the plays which is why you see one on five basketball when Joe or Crawford go iso all game long. Not only that he makes ZERO adjustments. We play a switching defense because our starting point guard is horrible and we still won't make adjustments for it other than switching.

2. We don't have a real offense because of the above. We have two of the most talented big guys in the NBA in Horford and Smoove and yet both of them have to scrape for shots because they never get fed the ball. I've NEVER seen a team that has an All Star center and a guy who should be an All Star af PF NEVER give their bigs a chance to score on a consistent basis.

3. We have TWO STARTERS who contribute NOTHING. Think about that. We have a PG in Bibby who should NOT have been resigned. He is slower than slow. He gets routinely eaten alive on defense by quicker point guards which is why we switch ALL THE TIME. Marvin? Please. He plays decent defense and rebounds well for his position, that's it. I mean...that's IT. He doesn't do anything on offense. Bibby will occasionally drift around the three point line to find a spot and that's it.

4. We have NO BENCH outside of Crawford and Zaza. We have a talented young point guard in Teague who never sees the light of day because our coach hates rookie point guards. The other guys don't do anything except fill in for spot minutes. Evans is a decent defensive perimeter guy and that's it. Joe Smith is officially done.

5. Our ownership is still in turmoil and is cheap as hell. This is the only playoff team IIRC that did not use the mid level exception to try and bring in someone. They don't even have a full scouting department. They played cheap ball with Josh Childress which is why he's in Greece and if Memphis hadn't signed Josh Smith to a contract (which forced them to match) he would have been gone as well. So we don't bring in free agents and we don't take salary back to try and be a better team.

6. Our entire team is literally Joe Johnson, Al Horford, Josh Smith and Crawford. Our entire team's offense and defense is built on three starters and a "sixth man" who plays almost as many minutes as a starter. No team is going to win in the playoffs when you can count on less than ONE HAND the number of guys who actually DO SOMETHING on the court.

What this team needs is for ownership to finally invest in it and bring in a REAL head coach and trying to get players back in a Joe Johnson sign and trade. We need to bite the bullet and dump Bibby and Marvin for whatever we can get. This team might not make the playoffs for a year but we desperately need a real head coach who can count on FIVE STARTERS and an active bench and NOT what you see with this team: four guys who don't have a real coach trying to win by themselves.

The truth spoken!