I truely believe if Joe stays, it will be because a major trade is coming through.

[coachx]

I don't know, he's been on the block for awhile and this deal is a great deal if your looking for young talent plus cap relief for Paul. You really have to remember that Okafor was a really bad deal for them. For us, Okafor could be better because Al defense is superior to West which makes Okafor not have to do so much on defense in covering for West's deficiencies.

Excellent point !

[Jody23]

Excellent point !

+1

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think Joe goes to New York or Chicago otherwise. But if we can trade Josh Smith, Jamal Crawford, and picks for Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor. We become the best team in the league. Two potential elite players, CP3(is elite) and Al Horford(can be) with a star in Joe Johnson is better than any team in the NBA.

Chris Paul/Teague/Bibby

Joe Johnson/Jordan Crawford

Marvin Williams/filler

Al Horford/filler or Zaza

Emeka Okafor/JaVale McGee(if the SnT with Washington goes through)/Zaza

This is championship team in my opinion and one that can win it all multiple times. Of course I wonder if CP3 is truly on the market but I really think he is and New Orleans are willing to do this to get Crawford expiring and Smith smaller contract with All Star abilities since CP3 is likely on his way out in 2012. I know I made a topic like this before but I really think we need to be in talks with New Orleans. This might have been the trades which Sund was referring to at All Star break about major deals in the off-season that he was talking about with other teams. If this is the case, Sund drafted Jordan Crawford who is a scoring machine, A+ move at 27. Trading the 31st for 3 million dollars which will help resign Joe which would be golden. Traded for Chris Paul and Okafor which are needed pieces on this roster as well a bonafide superstar in Paul. Can I say Executive of the Year.

Hawks payroll ( 2010 - 11 )

Johnson: 16.67 mill ( estimated )

Paul: 14.94 mill

Okafor: 11.54 mill

Marvin: 6.71 mill

Bibby: 5.56 mill

Horford: 5,44 mill

McGee: 5.0 mill ( estimated )

Zaza: 4.25

Mo Evans: 2.5 mill

Teague: 1.48 mill

Jor. Crawford: .85 mill cap hold? ( I know it's somewhere between 800K and 900K )

2 vet minimum contracts to fill out roster: 2.2 mill total?

ESTIMATED PAYROLL FOR NEXT SEASON: 77.24 MILLION

And this number will potentially SKYROCKET when Horford's deal comes around, increasing his 2011 - 12 salary by about 6 - 7 million, along with JJ, Paul, and Okafor's deals increasing by about 4 - 6 million total.

That puts us in the luxury tax next year, and definitely going into 2011. To get under the tax, you would have to NOT do the McGee deal . . find a way to deal Mo Evans for basically nothing . . and possibly find a taker for Bibby this summer. Then deal Zaza the following year. So the bench would have to be filled with minimum salaried guys.

It's a great idea you came up with, but you always have to try to run the numbers to see if it would work.

For the ASG to do this, it would take the ULTIMATE COMMITMENT from the fans to go out and support this team at ALL TIMES. I know people get tired of me of saying that. But if fans actually want ownership to make a commitment like this, ATL MUST UNCONDITIONALLY support a squad like this.

Edited June 29, 2010 by northcyde

[Joker]

Hawks payroll ( 2010 - 11 )

Johnson: 16.67 mill ( estimated )

Paul: 14.94 mill

Okafor: 11.54 mill

Marvin: 6.71 mill

Bibby: 5.56 mill

Horford: 5,44 mill

McGee: 5.0 mill ( estimated )

Zaza: 4.25

Mo Evans: 2.5 mill

Teague: 1.48 mill

Jor. Crawford: .85 mill cap hold? ( I know it's somewhere between 800K and 900K )

2 vet minimum contracts to fill out roster: 2.2 mill total?

ESTIMATED PAYROLL FOR NEXT SEASON: 77.24 MILLION

And this number will potentially SKYROCKET when Horford's deal comes around, increasing his 2011 - 12 salary by about 6 - 7 million, along with JJ, Paul, and Okafor's deals increasing by about 4 - 6 million total.

That puts us in the luxury tax next year, and definitely going into 2011. To get under the tax, you would have to NOT do the McGee deal . . find a way to deal Mo Evans for basically nothing . . and possibly find a taker for Bibby this summer. Then deal Zaza the following year. So the bench would have to be filled with minimum salaried guys.

It's a great idea you came up with, but you always have to try to run the numbers to see if it would work.

For the ASG to do this, it would take the ULTIMATE COMMITMENT from the fans to go out and support this team at ALL TIMES. I know people get tired of me of saying that. But if fans actually want ownership to make a commitment like this, ATL MUST UNCONDITIONALLY support a squad like this.

If we resign Joe for a max contract, we have to accept cap issues no matter what. CP3 and winning could net us sell outs like the Vick days in Atlanta. I agree but if your going to give Joe the max, you have no choice but to accept your going to be badly over the cap.

Edited June 29, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[Buzzard]

For the ASG to do this, it would take the ULTIMATE COMMITMENT from the fans to go out and support this team at ALL TIMES. I know people get tired of me of saying that. But if fans actually want ownership to make a commitment like this, ATL MUST UNCONDITIONALLY support a squad like this.

I really am tired of hearing you talk about it lol. Go run a AD out near the airport and stay on topic . :offtopic2:

Now back to the topic. This is not happening. Our owners did not save 3 million on a draft pick so they could splurge and get into the luxury tax. Forget about it .

Edited June 29, 2010 by Buzzard

[Joker]

I really am tired of hearing you talk about it lol. Go run a AD out near the airport and stay on topic . :offtopic2:

Now back to the topic. This is not happening. Our owners did not save 3 million on a draft pick so they could splurge and get into the luxury tax. Forget about it .

The point you missed is we will be in luxury tax lane just by signing Joe back for a max contract. This trade doesn't really change anything but the potential to win and sell more seats. In other words, it is a money making theory. As for Horford, his contract will put us over and we have options with Chilldress. What if they trade us Kevin S. for him. A cheap alternative with a lot of potential.

Edited June 29, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If we resign Joe for a max contract, we have to accept cap issues no matter what. CP3 and winning could net us sell outs like the Vick days in Atlanta. I agree but if your going to give Joe the max, you have no choice but to accept your going to be badly over the cap.

You give JJ the max with this current squad, the Hawks payroll is under 70 million. Depending on what the Luxury Tax number is, the Hawks will either be right at the luxury tax line, or a little over it. But to even achieve that, you either have to make a decision to trade Chill for somebody, or completely renounce him and use the MLE money to fill out the rest of the roster.

That's why I rant like I do sometimes.

I just think it's unrealistic for fans to think that this ownership would make a major move like that, and put forth a major financial commitment, if they wouldn't be for sure that the fans would come out on a nightly basis to watch that team. Maybe a player like Chris Paul is enough to move the needle in ATL. But he has to move the needle when teams like Indiana, LA Clippers, Memphis, and Minnesota come to town. Not just for Boston, the Lakers, or potentially Miami.

But your scenario can still happen. I just think we'll have a lot less pieces left on the team to work with, than what you listed.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I really am tired of hearing you talk about it lol. Go run a AD out near the airport and stay on topic . :offtopic2:

Now back to the topic. This is not happening. Our owners did not save 3 million on a draft pick so they could splurge and get into the luxury tax. Forget about it .

Buzz . . the only thing I can tell you man, is to use your ignore feature to completely block my posts. LOL . . cause you know I'm not going to quit talking about it, as long as the fan apathy exist in Atlanta.

I stayed on topic . . and interjected what I thought was also relevant to the argument.

[Joker]

You give JJ the max with this current squad, the Hawks payroll is under 70 million. Depending on what the Luxury Tax number is, the Hawks will either be right at the luxury tax line, or a little over it. But to even achieve that, you either have to make a decision to trade Chill for somebody, or completely renounce him and use the MLE money to fill out the rest of the roster.

That's why I rant like I do sometimes.

I just think it's unrealistic for fans to think that this ownership would make a major move like that, and put forth a major financial commitment, if they wouldn't be for sure that the fans would come out on a nightly basis to watch that team. Maybe a player like Chris Paul is enough to move the needle in ATL. But he has to move the needle when teams like Indiana, LA Clippers, Memphis, and Minnesota come to town. Not just for Boston, the Lakers, or potentially Miami.

But your scenario can still happen. I just think we'll have a lot less pieces left on the team to work with, than what you listed.

Great point, I wonder what our attendance is when CP3 is town and I also wonder if NO fans living in Atlanta will ship and become Hawk fans. This happen will a lot of Sixers fans with A.I.

[Diesel]

The point you missed is we will be in luxury tax lane just by signing Joe back for a max contract. This trade doesn't really change anything but the potential to win and sell more seats. In other words, it is a money making theory. As for Horford, his contract will put us over and we have options with Chilldress. What if they trade us Kevin S. for him. A cheap alternative with a lot of potential.

I'm not interested in Kevin S. But you do make a true point. We're over if we sign Joe.. so us having CP3 gives us something an ATL team hasn't had. A ratings draw.

Who don't want to see Joe/CP3 in the backcourt.

It would be a dream come true for both men. Mix in Al and a C and we have a force.

[Buzzard]

I just do not understand how anyone can see us purposely trading our way into the luxury tax this season. But dreams are great to have. Our owners said they traded away 31 to use that money to sign a veteran. I do not see how that cheap little move can convince anyone that what they meant to say was we did it to trade for a near Max All Star PG, an overpaid injury prone center, while also signing JJ to a 116 million dollar deal.

Yes that is exactly why they needed the three million so badly; its so they could spend 42 plus million this season on three players. Come on guys we have a better chance of pulling off a SNT for Bosh at 16 to 18 million than aquiring Paul and Okafor at 26.5 million. And we have no chance of doing that either...

Per northcyde:

Johnson: 16.67 mill ( estimated )

Paul: 14.94 mill

Okafor: 11.54 mill

Edited June 29, 2010 by Buzzard

[Joker]

I just do not understand how anyone can see us purposely trading our way into the luxury tax this season. But dreams are great to have. Our owners said they traded away 31 to use that money to sign a veteran. I do not see how that cheap little move can convince anyone that what they meant to say was we did it to trade for a near Max All Star PG, an overpaid injury prone center, while also signing JJ to a 116 million dollar deal.

Yes that is exactly why they needed the three million so badly; its so they could spend 42 plus million this season on three players. Come on guys we have a better chance of pulling off a SNT for Bosh at 16 to 18 million than aquiring Paul and Okafor at 26.5 million. And we have no chance of doing that either...

Per northcyde:

Johnson: 16.67 mill ( estimated )

Paul: 14.94 mill

Okafor: 11.54 mill

Joe Johnson $16.67 (estimated)

Josh Smith $11,600,000

Jamal Crawford $10,080,000

38,350,000 million for on a 6th man, a player who is extremely talented but doesn't fit with Horford and an All Star who isn't a superstar. Basically CP3 value trumps Okafor negative value as well as trumps Smith very good value. Not just in terms of impact but in terms of ticket sales. Look at the Hornets home/away attendance. 09-10 NBA attendance We had a much better record and better team on paper but fans rather see CP3 and clowns than a top 5-8 NBA team in the Hawks. Now add CP3 to Joe Johnson and Horford and that's a title contending squad with a lot of talent.

[Dragitoff]

Don't NBA teams get a revenue payment when their games are on national TV? Would Chris Paul (the player the Hawks should have drafted years ago, but they still got) generate more TV time than Josh Smith? Maybe. Maybe not. That has to be considered when you look at the bottom line. It's great to have butts in the seats, but if you're earning more money in other ways as a franchise and still winning (which should be the determining factor over the butts in the seats, but isn't always), who cares about the luxury tax? We'll be there anyways.

[Chinky_eyed_hawk]

I would much rather do a S & T like the one that is proposed for Dallas, in which we upgrade the Sf and C positions. Not only do we get a servicable center in Haywood(>Okafor), but we also gain an expiring contract in Butler. Leaving us 3 guys(4 if nothing pans out with chillz via trade) with expiring contracts for next year in which we can resign Al and possible going over a pg like umm... PARKER without mortaging our future in Okafor. Parker would put just as many fans in the seat as CP3 would AND we would still have more wiggle room finacially. Then you still have your core in JJ, Smith, Horford, and Haywood.

[Buzzard]

Joe Johnson $16.67 (estimated)

Josh Smith $11,600,000

Jamal Crawford $10,080,000

38,350,000 million for on a 6th man, a player who is extremely talented but doesn't fit with Horford and an All Star who isn't a superstar. Basically CP3 value trumps Okafor negative value as well as trumps Smith very good value. Not just in terms of impact but in terms of ticket sales. Look at the Hornets home/away attendance. 09-10 NBA attendance We had a much better record and better team on paper but fans rather see CP3 and clowns than a top 5-8 NBA team in the Hawks. Now add CP3 to Joe Johnson and Horford and that's a title contending squad with a lot of talent.

That is all fine and dandy if you think our owners want to commit to Okafor while losing Craws 10 million expiring. With Gearons public statements about bad contracts this would not fit our owners profile at all. Which is my point.

Spending this kind of money on a commited longterm contract for a marginal player is not their MO. I think they would love to have CP3, but not if it means taking on Okafur. They are just too budget minded and their history shows it. They would take CP3 (who would balk at that) off their hands in a heartbeat; but they will not pay the asking price of Okafur.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Buzzard

[Joker]

That is all fine and dandy if you think our owners want to commit to Okafor while losing Craws 10 million expiring. With Gearons public statements about bad contracts this would not fit our owners profile at all. Which is my point.

Spending this kind of money on a commited longterm contract for a marginal player is not their MO. I think they would love to have CP3, but not if it means taking on Okofur. They are just too budget minded and their history shows it. They would take CP3 (who would balk at that) off their hands in a heartbeat; but they will not pay the asking price of Okofur.

The question than would be how effective would Okafor be in our roster? Once the Hawks answer those questions, only then is the CP3/Okafor deal materialized.

[coachx]

I just do not understand how anyone can see us purposely trading our way into the luxury tax this season. But dreams are great to have. Our owners said they traded away 31 to use that money to sign a veteran. I do not see how that cheap little move can convince anyone that what they meant to say was we did it to trade for a near Max All Star PG, an overpaid injury prone center, while also signing JJ to a 116 million dollar deal.

Yes that is exactly why they needed the three million so badly; its so they could spend 42 plus million this season on three players. Come on guys we have a better chance of pulling off a SNT for Bosh at 16 to 18 million than aquiring Paul and Okafor at 26.5 million. And we have no chance of doing that either...

Per northcyde:

Johnson: 16.67 mill ( estimated )

Paul: 14.94 mill

Okafor: 11.54 mill

First............if we get Paul / Okafor then we renounce Chillz for nothing. No way we get McGee for Chillz. That is just foolishness right there.

Bringing Paul to Atlanta is a fantasy. However, Gearon has also said he would have no problem paying luxury tax for a guy like Lebron James. He was fined for that statement by Stern (Yet Jay-Z says whatever he wants, as part owner of the Nets, about James & there is no repercussion from Stern but that is another topic for another thread.)

Back to the point........Gearon would pay luxury tax for an elite superstar. I would definately call Chris Paul an elite superstar and easily a top 7 or 8 player in the NBA. Not only that but he makes players around him better. I think Paul is a guy they would pay the tax for.

Also, the Hawks would be paying very little luxury tax next year, if any at all, according to my math:

$16.7 - JJ

$14.9 - Paul

$11.5 - Okafor

$5.5 - Marvin

$5.5 - ZaZa

$5.4 - Horford

$2.5 - Evans

$1.4 - Teague

$1.0 - Crawford

$700 K - minimum salary

$700 K - minimum salary

= about $70 mill which is probably $2 mill over this years luxury tax

Now next year would be challenging b/c Bibby, ZaZa, and Marvin's contracts go up a good amount and Horford will need about $12 mill.

However, Bibby's deal would be expiring at $6.2 and Evans expiring at $2.5 That is $8.7 mill expiring that should make up the difference in Horford's raise. The Hawks would probably have to pawn off ZaZa to a team under the cap, for nothing back next year, to pay for the other players contract raises on the roster.

This is actually doable in my eyes and I'm a stickler for being a reaslist.

Edited June 29, 2010 by coachx

[Buzzard]

The question than would be how effective would Okafor be in our roster? Once the Hawks answer those questions, only then is the CP3/Okafor deal materialized.

Season splits last season against:

Boston : 4ppg 9.5 rpg 2.5 bpg

Cleveland : 5ppg 9rpg 0 bpg

Orlando : 4.5 ppg 4.5 rpg .5 bpg

He does not appear to be the answer down low against the teams we have to catch; and again, 11+ million is not something our owners are willing to commit to for this type of production. Seriously, is it any wonder New Orleans wants to dump this guy?

Edited June 29, 2010 by Buzzard

[coachx]

Season splits last season against:

Boston : 4ppg 9.5 rpg 2.5 bpg

Cleveland : 5ppg 9rpg 0 bpg

Orlando : 4.5 ppg 4.5 rpg .5 bpg

He does not appear to be the answer down low against the teams we have to catch; and again, 11+ million is not something our owners are willing to commit to for this type of production. Seriously, is it any wonder New Orleans wants to dump this guy?

2 words

Chris Paul

That is what makes it all worth it.

Chris Paul would make Larry Drew look like a genius. Just as Kidd and Paul did for Byron Scott. Our offensive problems would be solved.

Plus Okafor would playing next to Horford on defense, not West. I'm not worried about his points per game at all.

Edited June 29, 2010 by coachx

[BudBall]

All this sounds good to me. :vacation1: