Where is Joe Johnson?

[mrhonline]

Awwww, mrhonline didn't like being called out and gave me a -1. Thanks, mrh.

Nire, you realize I can tell every time you've given me a "-1," right? If you don't like someone responding in kind, then be a little more discriminate about your own use of rep points.

And, no, 50% TS is NOT decent for a guy that is supposed to be a 1st option. It's well below average.

Wretch was right to call him out for his poor shooting. I agree with the others here that his poor shooting needs to be taken into consideration with his otherwise solid play, but I'm not going to overlook his poor shooting simply because it offends your sensibilities. He's a 1st option, paid like a 1st option, and needed as a 1st option if this team expects to get any further in the playoffs. A 50% TS is not good enough looking forward.

[Guest Squawker]

If the real JJ was out there, he wouldn't have been in the game to score the last 10 points.

Dude you are making NO sense, you say the real JJ is a good one like the 2008 Celtics series. But he wouldnt be in the final minutes of the game? Are you arguing with yourself? JJ was clutch and is averaging better number in the play offs than his last 2 years. JJ's "shot" is his floater and D12 is in the lane to block it and he still gets 20 a game. Why would you be upset, most people thought he would average anywhere from 12 to 16 this playoff. If anything everyone should be happy with the way hes performing. If we were losing i could understand frustration. But we are up 3-1 on the Magic who KILLED us last year. We are playing with heart and not backing down. Grinding it out the whole game. Playing like an NBA team. and if we get to the second round, which looks likely. Joes floater will be available, and AL and Josh can post up.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Squawker

[niremetal]

Nire, you realize I can tell every time you've given me a "-1," right? If you don't like someone responding in kind, then be a little more discriminate about your own use of rep points.

And, no, 50% TS is NOT decent for a guy that is supposed to be a 1st option. It's well below average.

Wretch was right to call him out for his poor shooting. I agree with the others here that his poor shooting needs to be taken into consideration with his otherwise solid play, but I'm not going to overlook his poor shooting simply because it offends your sensibilities. He's a 1st option, paid like a 1st option, and needed as a 1st option if this team expects to get any further in the playoffs. A 50% TS is not good enough looking forward.

What's your basis for declaring a .508 TS% "not good enough" other than the fact that you don't like JJ?

Haters gonna hate. And you are definitely a hater. It's old, tiresome, and downright pathetic. Your criticism of JJ's shooting in this series is about one thing and one thing only: The fact that you don't like JJ. That's it. And that's all it will be unless you find some sort of basis for comparison to back up your hater's assertion that JJ's efficiency has been "awful" (still waiting for you to at least back down from "awful," btw, although I know you won't - saying "my bad" is clearly beneath your superhuman intellect).

And oh, btw - I only gave you a -1 after you gave me mine. Nice try, though.

Edited April 25, 2011 by niremetal

[Crank]

My only problem with JJ is that he doesnt make his moves quicker and kinda helps the defense guard him . Other than that Im not gonna be upset at him when hes putting the ball on the floor and driving it like he was tonight .

[mrhonline]

What's your basis for declaring a .508 TS% "not good enough" other than the fact that you don't like JJ?

1. Past history. Look at Joe's playoff TS% in the past two seasons and remind me how successful the Hawks were in the 2nd round.

2, Current history. Look here: http://bkref.com/tiny/ljWjn

Among high usage, rotation guards - Joe is ranked 12th of 19th in TS%. He's even behind Derrick Rose, a guy who's shooting 35% in FG%.

[niremetal]

1. Past history. Look at Joe's playoff TS% in the past two seasons and remind me how successful the Hawks were in the 2nd round.

2, Current history. Look here: http://bkref.com/tiny/ljWjn

Among high usage, rotation guards - Joe is ranked 12th of 19th in TS%. He's even behind Derrick Rose, a guy who's shooting 35% in FG%.

1) Your "awful efficiency" BS post came as a response to my assertion of his 20ppg FOR THIS SERIES. Last year's playoffs? What does that have to do with his efficiency IN THIS SERIES? What, do you think you can move the goalposts without anyone noticing? Nice try. Again.

2) After tonight, he's at .508. Tied with D-Rose. 11th of 19. One spot away from the median. I never said it was "great." But that sure as hell isn't "awful." It's "average." And being "average" amongst the elite guards in the NBA playoffs is not a bad thing.

But hey - keep hatin', hater. It's all you can do. I feel sorry for you sometimes, your 3 crybaby downratings of my posts in this thread not withstanding. Really, I do. You're clearly intelligent. But what does it say that even on a blog, you're incapable of climbing down once you get up on a high horse?

Once you shoot your mouth off about something, you're too proud to admit "my bad" (certainly when saying "my bad" would mean...GASP!!!....backing down from your habit of bashing JJ for whatever you can latch onto!). That's all this is about at this point for you. That's really, really sad. And it's why I'm done with you in this thread.

Edited April 25, 2011 by niremetal

[Atlantaholic]

I'll take this Joe Johnson over the Joe Johnson of the last two playoffs. What were Joe's numbers against the magic last playoff series?

[thecampster]

Awwww, mrhonline didn't like being called out and gave me a -1. Thanks, mrh.

Entering tonight (when his FG% was .444), JJ was 16th among 40 SGs in FG% in the playoffs. After tonight (down to .435), he'd slip to 18th of 40. He's 5th among 11 SGs who have averaged 10+ FGAs per game:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/fieldGoalPct/position/shooting-guards

Btw, JJ's TS% for the series after tonight is .508. That's definitely not bad for a guard. Especially in the playoffs. Especially with the 3-time DPOY waiting in the lane. Especially getting as much defensive attention as he does.

You gonna say "my bad, his efficiency hasn't been awful" or are you gonna give me another -1?

Dunno. MrH is usually spot on with his analysis.

That said...major props to JJ....this might be his best series as a Hawk. Rebounding wins Championships...Al with 12, Josh with 10 and Joe with 9...tonight. Joe with 6.5 a game for the series from the 2 is huge. More than happy to give JJ his due on that.

[Joker]

Dunno. MrH is usually spot on with his analysis.

That said...major props to JJ....this might be his best series as a Hawk. Rebounding wins Championships...Al with 12, Josh with 10 and Joe with 9...tonight. Joe with 6.5 a game for the series from the 2 is huge. More than happy to give JJ his due on that.

Boston series?

[thecampster]

Boston series?

I'd still say this one because of the defensive dynamic. The defining play for me was game 3 when he went hard to the basket and drew the foul on Dwight. If JJ would do that 4 or 5 times a game he'd score 25 a game again. JJ is still making some selfish plays that are hurting us but he's doing much less of it in this series and getting himself good looks in ISO's compared to before.

Dwight in the middle creates real problems for JJ (much worse than the Boston series a few years ago) and he's finding the soft spots better and utilizing his teammates more.

[jhay610]

Dude you are making NO sense, you say the real JJ is a good one like the 2008 Celtics series. But he wouldnt be in the final minutes of the game? Are you arguing with yourself? JJ was clutch and is averaging better number in the play offs than his last 2 years. JJ's "shot" is his floater and D12 is in the lane to block it and he still gets 20 a game. Why would you be upset, most people thought he would average anywhere from 12 to 16 this playoff. If anything everyone should be happy with the way hes performing. If we were losing i could understand frustration. But we are up 3-1 on the Magic who KILLED us last year. We are playing with heart and not backing down. Grinding it out the whole game. Playing like an NBA team. and if we get to the second round, which looks likely. Joes floater will be available, and AL and Josh can post up.

I believe the user was implying that if the "real" JJ were here then it would not be a close game as he would be raining a barrage of long, medium and short range shots and thus the game would be out of reach, as a win would be comfortably in hand in the closing seconds.

I agree it was a bit confusing to get there from what was posted, however.

[Wretch]

I believe the user was implying that if the "real" JJ were here then it would not be a close game as he would be raining a barrage of long, medium and short range shots and thus the game would be out of reach, as a win would be comfortably in hand in the closing seconds.

I agree it was a bit confusing to get there from what was posted, however.

Give this man a Internet! But I'd settle for a handful, as opposed to a barrage, of clutch shots

It's so funny to me that some people love/hate certain players on their OWN team. No matter what. I don't hate any guy on that court. I have my favorites, both in my signature (and both I regularly criticize), but I don't "hate" on a player for our own team and I'm not going to deny it when my favorite player(s) are not playing up to their ability. Honestly, I rarely hate on a player for the opposing team - unless he has some sort of punk-*ss attitude (*ahem*KG*ahem).

The bottom line is exactly what Mr. H said:

He's a 1st option, paid like a 1st option, and needed as a 1st option if this team expects to get any further in the playoffs. A 50% TS is not good enough looking forward.

Jamal has been our 1st option and JJ has been, as someone else said, a SIDEKICK. Joe Johnson is THE guy on this team. Or he's supposed to be. I am not a hater. I usually keep my mouth closed about a subject for a LONG time - usually when something becomes a bit of a consensus and people that cannot "see the light" make ridiculous statements. But Joe has been off this entire season - and his numbers are down across the board. He came out with a purpose in game one and THAT is what we need. Not some free throws because our offense grinded to a halt and Orlando fought back into the game. We're celebrating, but this game didn't have to be that close and could have gone the other way.

YES Joe is a good player. YES he sank some clutch free throws. YES this is his team. YES he's putting up decent numbers for the series.

---DECENT---

This game would have been WELL out of reach had he been shooting like Jamal. God forbid though, that Jamal cools down and JJ maintains this "acceptable" level of play. We LOSE. I don't see how people can't see that - or what this team would be like if Joe and Jamal played at that level every game. I also don't want to hear any excuses about Dwight. As Diesel would say, I call bullsh*t. It's not affecting Jamal, Hinrich, ZaZa, or even Smoove. If anything, we need Joe attacking the paint to get his big *ss in foul trouble.

BTW...if Joe had EARNED those trips to the stripe, I might call them clutch. That could have been ANYBODY at the line and Joe would have finished with 16 points.

[Supporter]

You are comapring Joe to a guy like Jamal who is flat out on FIRE in this series and is just making tough shot after tough shot, the only other person that could get in his type of rhythm in the NBA is a guy like Kobe or Durant. Every other player who gets Jamal's type of scoring numbers attack the rim constantly. Right now Joe is in his equilibrium where he is not forcing up a whole bunch of shots but at the same time is doing what he has to for the team as long as Jamal is on fire. If we had Joe try to find his groove jacking up 20+ shots, we lose. Right now it's a team win and you simply can't say that if player A stops playing, then the team loses. If you noticed before Jamal came in during the first quarter we were practically blowing out the magic, and before Joe got in foul trouble, he scored 8 consecutive points to start off the momentum. One could argue that had it not been for that boost of energy that the Hawks would never have that huge lead that they did in the first. Also, Joe has never been the guy to score HUGE numbers ala Jamal, someone who can just get 25 on a consistent basis in the playoffs, but he is one that you can depend on down the stretch and someone who can give you a consistent 22,5, and 5 on game by game basis.

[Popeye]

Wtf u guys talking about? Jj has been Our best all around player in the series easily...... He gets doubled almost everytime and especially if he hits 2 in a row..... Jamal is taking advantage of this like he should be and he is hitting his shots thank god...... Just Watch Magic defense when Joe gets the ball...

[Sothron]

Wtf u guys talking about? Jj has been Our best all around player in the series easily...... He gets doubled almost everytime and especially if he hits 2 in a row..... Jamal is taking advantage of this like he should be and he is hitting his shots thank god...... Just Watch Magic defense when Joe gets the ball...

I agree. Watch Howard when Joe has the ball. He almost immediately slides over and waits just outside the paint for Joe to get past his defender. Every time. We need to have LD send some slashers to the basket to force Howard to defend them or get into foul trouble by Joe passing the ball to them for a contested layup.

[Wretch]

You are comapring Joe to a guy like Jamal who is flat out on FIRE in this series and is just making tough shot after tough shot, the only other person that could get in his type of rhythm in the NBA is a guy like Kobe or Durant. Every other player who gets Jamal's type of scoring numbers attack the rim constantly. Right now Joe is in his equilibrium where he is not forcing up a whole bunch of shots but at the same time is doing what he has to for the team as long as Jamal is on fire. If we had Joe try to find his groove jacking up 20+ shots, we lose. Right now it's a team win and you simply can't say that if player A stops playing, then the team loses. If you noticed before Jamal came in during the first quarter we were practically blowing out the magic, and before Joe got in foul trouble, he scored 8 consecutive points to start off the momentum. One could argue that had it not been for that boost of energy that the Hawks would never have that huge lead that they did in the first. Also, Joe has never been the guy to score HUGE numbers ala Jamal, someone who can just get 25 on a consistent basis in the playoffs, but he is one that you can depend on down the stretch and someone who can give you a consistent 22,5, and 5 on game by game basis.

I am first and foremost, comparing Joe Johnson to Joe Johnson. He has been an incredible player for us every season up until now. This season, he has been nothing but AVERAGE and his numbers are down across the board. He has carried that into the playoffs and it's keeping us from walking away with this series. Credit our perimert D for some of it, but in the same way Orlando's outside shots are not falling, Joe being off is keeping this thing closer than it needs to be. If he doesn't snap to form, it will keep us from advancing out of the 2nd.

A team win? Every game is a team win. Except the game where Wilt scored a hundred points. The thing is, if you take away those clutch shots that Crawford hit...then this is not the same series. Not even close. Basketball is a team game, but it is STAR driven. When games grind down like they do in the playoffs, you either have some nobody step up or your star does what stars do. Every team has one. Not just LA and OKC. Every top team has a guy they can give the ball to and without that guy playing up to his level, none of those teams would be favored to win anything.

It is especially important for us to have OUR guy play up to his level because outside of him, we really don't have a guy that can give us consistent clutch shooting. Jamal has, thank God, made his case for being such a player. But who here thinks that he can maintain this for the remainder of the playoffs? It's not a given and if he slows down and Joe doesn't shake this sh!t off, we're in trouble.

As far as who scores and when... There is a BIG difference between JJ's 20 and Jamal's 20. Basketball is a game of runs. From a holistic perspective, no there is no difference between Joe's first half points and Hinrich's buckets. There's no difference between a shot made by Jason Collins and a shot made by Jamal Crawford. If this logic were true, then it wouldn't matter if you traded LeBron for Marvin, Pachulia, Powell, and Teague. Averaged out, these guys could all score just as many PPG as LeBron by himself. The problem is, points are not just points. Some baskets are more meaningful than others. Some baskets kill the opposition's momentum. Some baskets give us huge cushions. Some baskets start a comeback (or sustain it).

As THE guy on this team, it is Joe's responsibility to hit those baskets. It's not on Al or Josh. It's not on Crawford (his job is to come off the bench and shoot like there's no tommorrow). It's on Joe at the beginning, middle, and end of the game. It's not like he hasn't shown us CONSISTENLTY that he can't do this and it's not an unrealistic expectation. It's what he was paid to be! He's not paid to pass the ball, play defense, or to be Jamal's right hand. He's paid to be THE man on this team and MAKE the baskets that count. There is no arguement.

[niremetal]

I am first and foremost, comparing Joe Johnson to Joe Johnson. He has been an incredible player for us every season up until now. This season, he has been nothing but AVERAGE and his numbers are down across the board. He has carried that into the playoffs and it's keeping us from walking away with this series. Credit our perimert D for some of it, but in the same way Orlando's outside shots are not falling, Joe being off is keeping this thing closer than it needs to be. If he doesn't snap to form, it will keep us from advancing out of the 2nd.

A team win? Every game is a team win. Except the game where Wilt scored a hundred points. The thing is, if you take away those clutch shots that Crawford hit...then this is not the same series. Not even close. Basketball is a team game, but it is STAR driven. When games grind down like they do in the playoffs, you either have some nobody step up or your star does what stars do. Every team has one. Not just LA and OKC. Every top team has a guy they can give the ball to and without that guy playing up to his level, none of those teams would be favored to win anything.

It is especially important for us to have OUR guy play up to his level because outside of him, we really don't have a guy that can give us consistent clutch shooting. Jamal has, thank God, made his case for being such a player. But who here thinks that he can maintain this for the remainder of the playoffs? It's not a given and if he slows down and Joe doesn't shake this sh!t off, we're in trouble.

As far as who scores and when... There is a BIG difference between JJ's 20 and Jamal's 20. Basketball is a game of runs. From a holistic perspective, no there is no difference between Joe's first half points and Hinrich's buckets. There's no difference between a shot made by Jason Collins and a shot made by Jamal Crawford. If this logic were true, then it wouldn't matter if you traded LeBron for Marvin, Pachulia, Powell, and Teague. Averaged out, these guys could all score just as many PPG as LeBron by himself. The problem is, points are not just points. Some baskets are more meaningful than others. Some baskets kill the opposition's momentum. Some baskets give us huge cushions. Some baskets start a comeback (or sustain it).

As THE guy on this team, it is Joe's responsibility to hit those baskets. It's not on Al or Josh. It's not on Crawford (his job is to come off the bench and shoot like there's no tommorrow). It's on Joe at the beginning, middle, and end of the game. It's not like he hasn't shown us CONSISTENLTY that he can't do this and it's not an unrealistic expectation. It's what he was paid to be! He's not paid to pass the ball, play defense, or to be Jamal's right hand. He's paid to be THE man on this team and MAKE the baskets that count. There is no arguement.

Does defense play any role whatsoever in your assessment? Apparently not. You say so explicitly. He's not paid to play defense? In the playoffs? Against a team that absolutely destroyed us from the perimeter last year?

Jamal has been our #1 scorer in this series. In every single other aspect of the game, JJ has been the better player. If you want to focus narrowly on scoring as the be-all and end-all of what Joe is "paid to do," in the playoffs, fine. But we haven't gone up 3-1 in this series because of a supercharged offense. We've done it thanks to outstanding defense, especially on the perimeter. In that regard, Joe has actually led the way, and Jamal has actually been the WORST player in our perimeter rotation. But hey, defense doesn't matter right? That's not what Joe's paid to do. Ok.

[swanlee]

Joe is playing pretty well this series no complaints against him. Josh on the other hand is playing like a freaking rookie, some decent defense at times but a complete idiot on offense. Josh is the weakest link on this team right now.

[Wretch]

Does defense play any role whatsoever in your assessment? Apparently not. You say so explicitly. He's not paid to play defense? In the playoffs? Against a team that absolutely destroyed us from the perimeter last year?

Jamal has been our #1 scorer in this series. In every single other aspect of the game, JJ has been the better player. If you want to focus narrowly on scoring as the be-all and end-all of what Joe is "paid to do," in the playoffs, fine. But we haven't gone up 3-1 in this series because of a supercharged offense. We've done it thanks to outstanding defense, especially on the perimeter. In that regard, Joe has actually led the way, and Jamal has actually been the WORST player in our perimeter rotation. But hey, defense doesn't matter right? That's not what Joe's paid to do. Ok.

My favorite Hawks players of all time: Mookie Blaylock, Deke, Josh Smith. Why? Because I love DEFENSE. My favorite coaches are those that drill it into their players. It is by far what I want most out of my teams. I don't tune in to watch Joe play defense, make passes, and shoot free throws (unless he's earning a trip to the line) and I don't buy tickets to see him defend DWade.

Mutombo was paid a huge chunk of money to play defense. Joe Johnson was paid a huge chunk of money to put the ball in the basket.

It IS the be all and end all. It is the bottom line. You don't win by out defending the other team. You do it by hitting shots. It's great that Joe makes contributions other than being the focus of our offense. But if Jamal isn't playing at the level he's been, what would be the worth of all the defense and passing and whatnot? He'd have *decent* all around games and we'd be 1-3 right now.

I cannot and will not applaud the man for being an average player out there on the court. He can do that blindfolded.

[Wretch]

LOL...you guys can set that bar as low as you want. Put it on the ground. Put all the weight you want into free throws and defense. If Jamal cannot keep this up, we won't make it out of the 2nd round. Conversely, if we get "Old Joe" back, then we have a legit chance to shock the world.