We can't trust Teague.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

BS

He more than showed up because he has heart.

He was the on court difference maker along with Teague. While Thomas, Boozer, Gibson and Noah were bruising, Josh went into the frey and took the hits For The Team!! Al ducked and went out to the perimeter for a jumper. Al wanted NONE OF THAT !! What games did you watch?

But like people said, it wasn't until he got clowned in the national media, that he showed up.

Smith plays hard, he just doesn't play smart. There's no way you can call out Al and JJ, without calling out Smith.

He shot 40% FG ( as a PF ) - 13% 3FG - and 60% FT. Smith showed up in a few games, just like everyone else did on the team. No one showed up on a consistent basis.

[Wretch]

But like people said, it wasn't until he got clowned in the national media, that he showed up.

Smith plays hard, he just doesn't play smart. There's no way you can call out Al and JJ, without calling out Smith.

He shot 40% FG ( as a PF ) - 13% 3FG - and 60% FT. Smith showed up in a few games, just like everyone else did on the team. No one showed up on a consistent basis.

Without derailing the conversation about our guards, II agree with that. Josh Smith has all kinds of fire and has shown in the past a willingness to listen to criticism and work on his game. Unfortunately, he also tends to stop listening to criticism and focuses on the part of his game where we need him less. As for JJ and Al, I think we've beat JJ up enough. No doubt. Al however is no longer the "golden child' IMO. It's time for that cat to start going inside and it's time for him to start calling for the ball and making baskets. At around 15/9, his numbers are good. But with his size and his ability to stroke the midrange shot, there is no reason to think he can't be a rock solid 20/10.

He needs to bring it. None of that disappearing sh!t, none of that missing wide open mid-range shots, none of those 5-6 rebound games, and none of this b!tching from him (or his dad) about having to play center.

For as long as he's here, calling him out on it is completely justified IMO.

[Eddielives]

BS

He more than showed up because he has heart.

He was the on court difference maker along with Teague. While Thomas, Boozer, Gibson and Noah were bruising, Josh went into the frey and took the hits For The Team!! Al ducked and went out to the perimeter for a jumper. Al wanted NONE OF THAT !! What games did you watch?

I know this thread is about Teague but I am just curious, last year when Hubie Brown pointed out how Josh was walking up the court and had obviously given up and he embarrassed himself.....again, were you critical of him then? For that matter, were any of the Smith apologists holding him accountable in their minds or on this forum at that point in time?

Now as for the topic of the thread, my position is Teague should be given every shot next year to be the starting point guard IF and only IF Kirk is there to continue to help mentor the young guy and gets plenty of playing time at shooting guard or we trade Kirk but have someone ready to sign who is a veteran point willing to play behind Teague and step in when and if he starts struggling mightily. Personally, I think keeping Kirk is a really good idea until Teague proves himself for at least half of a season.

[Crank]

When and where have you or us " hear teammates having to back up Josh because of the dumb decisions he makes, " I've never heard a teammate blast Josh. It is remarkable how some blame a Josh shot from the field the same as Blaming Josh when he recieves a pass with 4 seconds on the shot clock left, usually from Joe or Marvin. Teamates stagnant not moving or fighting for usefulness and Josh is left with the ball, to shoot. It has happened. Josh may actually be the best passer on the team. For me, you can have that punk hide and duck game these guys you love have. I believe we need more guys like Josh with heart and drive, guts and fight. Guys like Joal Anthony, Reggie Evans, Raja Bell, AK47, K Bogans. Keep the soft guys that are supposed to be tough but are not.

I believe you are just as out of touch with reality as Josh is when he is launching those 20 ft jumpshots .

His teammates dont say anything to Josh because mentally as soft as jello pudding and his antics scream of petty and spiteful displays .

Thats the only choice his teammates have if they even hope of for him to contribute anything.

Josh is not a bad player thats not what Im saying at all but this heart,drive,guts,fight BS your peddling is ridiculous hes shown nothing of the kind in quite some time .

But Im not giving Josh or Joe a pass either Im not happy with trio at all at this point . You cant have three players with these kind of flaws be your 3 best players and expect to get out of the second rd .

[Swatguy]

I know this thread is about Teague but I am just curious, last year when Hubie Brown pointed out how Josh was walking up the court and had obviously given up and he embarrassed himself.....again, were you critical of him then? For that matter, were any of the Smith apologists holding him accountable in their minds or on this forum at that point in time?

Now as for the topic of the thread, my position is Teague should be given every shot next year to be the starting point guard IF and only IF Kirk is there to continue to help mentor the young guy and gets plenty of playing time at shooting guard or we trade Kirk but have someone ready to sign who is a veteran point willing to play behind Teague and step in when and if he starts struggling mightily. Personally, I think keeping Kirk is a really good idea until Teague proves himself for at least half of a season.

So you are still accounting Josh on the '10 playoffs? Whoa.

I critique Josh's game as well as the rest. He did step up in the playoffs and others did enough to show respectable. While that is true under close examination some guys shrunk. Shrunk from fear and/or indifference. Josh played hard, was physical and continually took beatings. Most of the physicallity did not result in fouls called. For the most time he bit his lips and got back up and played. That and his willing to take the criticism is to be applauded and certainly no apology needed or given. On a very thin front line (which became thinner because Al went "Euro"), Josh and Zaza were pretty much it. They should be retained, not traded.

As for Jeff, he is the starter. It is in him.

[KB21]

How did this thread become a thread about Josh Smith?

The best idea I've heard so far is to play Teague and Hinrich at the same time. The combo of those two in the backcourt would do a few things:

1. It would give the Hawks a strong defensive back court.

2. It would allow them to move Joe Johnson's defenisve assignment to the three position.

3. The two players actually have skills that compliment one another, which is a stark contrast to the Bibby/Johnson/Crawford unit we ran into the ground last year.

The only negative is that we would have no back court depth and no money to sign a good back up point guard because of Joe's ridiculous contract.

[Swatguy]

How did this thread become a thread about Josh Smith?

The best idea I've heard so far is to play Teague and Hinrich at the same time. The combo of those two in the backcourt would do a few things:

1. It would give the Hawks a strong defensive back court.

2. It would allow them to move Joe Johnson's defenisve assignment to the three position.

3. The two players actually have skills that compliment one another, which is a stark contrast to the Bibby/Johnson/Crawford unit we ran into the ground last year.

The only negative is that we would have no back court depth and no money to sign a good back up point guard because of Joe's ridiculous contract.

If we signed a Shannon Brown he would be that backup combo. Developing Sy is certainly the idea also.

[KB21]

If we signed a Shannon Brown he would be that backup combo. Developing Sy is certainly the idea also.

Well, I would agree that Shannon Brown would be a quality player to sign as a back up. He's a decent combo guard that can play a bench role. However, he's going to cost at least the entire MLE to sign. If the Hawks sign him, they will likely have to go into the luxury tax threshold. They have shown no desire to do that unless it is for a player that can legitimately take this team to the next level. I don't see them doing it. Joe Johnson's contract along with Marvin William's contract is the reason the Hawks cannot make a signing like this. Shannon would be worth the MLE, but he's not worth paying the luxury tax.

As far as developing Pape Sy, I think that is a lot easier said than done. I don't know of many coaches that is going to cost his team wins in an effort to develop someone, unless it is a team that is in a complete rebuilding mode. For that reason, I cannot see Pape Sy being anything other than a 12th or 13th man on the roster next year. He could barely get minutes in the NBDL.

[Guest]

However, the statisticians would tell you that we don't have enough data points.

Its not the lack of data, its the overwhelming data that show Teague is a below average player. Does one good series trump all the other data? I don't know, maybe we should ask Chris Crawford about that (btw, wouldn't it be cool to see what he's up to nowadays?) Or Austin Croshere or any other player who received a big payday from a favorable playoff matchup.

I can't trust Teague and if our future hinges on him then that is bad news. This organization needs a total make over in my opinion and wishing Teague becomes a savior for his team just exemplifies what is wrong with this entire organization.

[KB21]

Its not the lack of data, its the overwhelming data that show Teague is a below average player. Does one good series trump all the other data? I don't know, maybe we should ask Chris Crawford about that (btw, wouldn't it be cool to see what he's up to nowadays?) Or Austin Croshere or any other player who received a big payday from a favorable playoff matchup.

I can't trust Teague and if our future hinges on him then that is bad news. This organization needs a total make over in my opinion and wishing Teague becomes a savior for his team just exemplifies what is wrong with this entire organization.

Based on regular season numbers and limited minutes at similar ages, the player who Jeff Teague compares to is Aaron Brooks, formerly of the Houston Rockets and current Phoenix Suns reserve combo guard. The are similar body types, with Jeff Teague being slightly taller and longer. They both love to attack the basket and look to score and then create for their teammates off their ability to score. Aaron Brooks is a better three point shooter at the same age. Aaron Brook's best season was at the age of 25, when Houston entrusted him to being their starting point guard. He produced 5.5 win shares that season with a 16.0 PER. Both are average to slightly below average for a starter.

I think the questions are legitimate. Offensively, he has a long way to go. That is the area of his game that needs the most improvement. He has to become at the very least a better mid range jump shooter, and he needs to get stronger so he can finish at the rim better than he currently does. Defensively though, I would have played him at least 700 to 800 more minutes this year because it was beyond obvious that he was our best perimeter defender before Hinrich was acquired. This organization has a strong aversion against defense and rebounding though.

My personal opinion is that despite his good series against the Bulls, Jeff Teague will probably top out as a below average starter at point guard but above average reserve as a point guard. I think his lack of shooting ability and ultimately lack of size will hold him back. I don't think he is quite the physical and defensive freak that Rajon Rondo is.

[MaceCase]

Have to agree with the last two posts. What Teague showed in the Chicago series was the ability to succeed in a very limited role which was penetrating and scoring and it would be a mistake for us to extrapolate that success out to other areas of his game. He needs to develop and I don't mean PG instincts or passing ability and the like, no, what he needs is to diversify his scoring game because that is his niche in this league. I do not ever see him as a pure point and I don't think he has the overwhelming scoring ability or multiple physical tools of bigger combo's like Rose and Westbrook but definitely I would be satisfied with a better defending Aaron Brooks with less tunnel vision of course....that is if he can ever get that jumper of his to work.

[Diesel]

The only reason Josh showed up was because he was called out on national tv and was embarrassed. Its not even that he doesnt really show up its the fact that hes indifferent to what the team needs from him to actually win games .

At this point we cant trust anyone though as no one on this team is consistent. except Marvin who manages to consistently suck .

This is my fear about Josh Smith. It's hard to know if he's just BBIQ illiterate or if he's so self consumed that he doesn't care about his team until the spotlight is placed on him?

[Diesel]

Diesel . . you can't overlook that Hinrich was straight garbage for about 6 weeks before the playoffs. He didn't play well at all coming down the stretch in the regular season. Like everyone else, he turned it up during the playoffs.

So while I may slightly agree that we can't trust Teague, it's not like we can trust Hinrich either. I say you have to go with the younger guy as the starter, and let Hinrich come off the bench to stabilize the 2nd unit. If you want to finish games with Hinrich on the floor instead of Teague, then fine. But if Teague is even remotely ready, he should start over Hinrich.

There's a couple of things. Playing PG is not an individual position like playing Sf or PF. The PG is responsible for the flow of the offense and in a sense, the team's output. It takes teamwork and trust. For 6 weeks, Hinrich had to fight to get in that circle of trust. He had to learn players and we rarely had breaks for practice. By the time we played Orlando, Hinrich looked like he had started to find his place on the team. I say training camp and workouts during the summer will make our team more of a team. I believe had Hinrich gotten back by game 5 Chicago, we would have won that series.

[Diesel]

How did this thread become a thread about Josh Smith?

The best idea I've heard so far is to play Teague and Hinrich at the same time. The combo of those two in the backcourt would do a few things:

1. It would give the Hawks a strong defensive back court.

2. It would allow them to move Joe Johnson's defenisve assignment to the three position.

3. The two players actually have skills that compliment one another, which is a stark contrast to the Bibby/Johnson/Crawford unit we ran into the ground last year.

The only negative is that we would have no back court depth and no money to sign a good back up point guard because of Joe's ridiculous contract.

I don't think we can go for stretches with these two being minime.

Joe can play Sf but he's not a great rebounder. We would have to get a strong rebounder at the 4 and 5. We'd need a defensive big at 5 and move Horf to 4 to do this.

I do like the rotation of Teague and Hinrich at the 1.

Teague pushes and takes advantage of holes in the halfcourt set.

The interesting thing is against Chicago because of the way their defense is set up, we usually had to work from the halfcourt set. Teague found gaping holes in the best defense in the land's halfcourt set. Mostly due to the fact that Joe Johnson required a double at all times... but Teague found them. Imagine what he could do in the full court on the break?

Hinrich provides the ice to Teague's fire. Like Googs/Monroe for my historians. However, I think that at the PG position, we could live with this. If we decide to trade Hinrich, we should bring in another distributor guy like Ford or find a way to get Sessions. However, I think we did good getting Hinrich.

[Diesel]

Based on regular season numbers and limited minutes at similar ages, the player who Jeff Teague compares to is Aaron Brooks, formerly of the Houston Rockets and current Phoenix Suns reserve combo guard. The are similar body types, with Jeff Teague being slightly taller and longer. They both love to attack the basket and look to score and then create for their teammates off their ability to score. Aaron Brooks is a better three point shooter at the same age. Aaron Brook's best season was at the age of 25, when Houston entrusted him to being their starting point guard. He produced 5.5 win shares that season with a 16.0 PER. Both are average to slightly below average for a starter.

I think the questions are legitimate. Offensively, he has a long way to go. That is the area of his game that needs the most improvement. He has to become at the very least a better mid range jump shooter, and he needs to get stronger so he can finish at the rim better than he currently does. Defensively though, I would have played him at least 700 to 800 more minutes this year because it was beyond obvious that he was our best perimeter defender before Hinrich was acquired. This organization has a strong aversion against defense and rebounding though.

My personal opinion is that despite his good series against the Bulls, Jeff Teague will probably top out as a below average starter at point guard but above average reserve as a point guard. I think his lack of shooting ability and ultimately lack of size will hold him back. I don't think he is quite the physical and defensive freak that Rajon Rondo is.

I don't know about that. When we drafted him, his biggest weakness was turnovers. He played damn near turnover free basketball for the series. Does 1 series change things? Yes... it does. Can we put our complete trust in that. NO, but we have to be willing to persue the thought that Teague could be our future. Now we can point to Crissy Crawford as a failed playoff success (but when you look at Crawford, it was just 1 half of basketball).

However, what about successes from the playoffs? Tayshun Prince - Pistons? Stephen Jackson - Spurs? Kendrick Perkins- Celts? There are others..

The thing is that this was not a total anamoly for Teague. He has had some really big late season games before and we just cast them off as being late season games that didn't matter so nobody else played.

[Guest]

However, what about successes from the playoffs? Tayshun Prince - Pistons? Stephen Jackson - Spurs? Kendrick Perkins- Celts? There are others..

We could go on and on with examples and counter examples. My main point would be the players you are referring to played well in more than 1 series in the playoffs. Teague only did well against Rose's spanish defense. If memory serves me right, CJ Watson manhandled Teague. And Teague also didn't do much to stop Rose, so what we saw was a strength in Teague faced a major weakness for Rose and it made Teague look better than he is.

I sure hope Sund doesn't put too much emphasis on the playoffs because we only faced 2 teams. You can't win a championship only playing 2 teams and it is also unlikely you will always face those 2 teams in the playoffs. This is where overreacting becomes a big deal and screws up franchises (Pho and Cle with Shaq as recent examples that come to mind).

[AHF]

For planning purposes, I have zero faith in Pape Sy to be a legit part of our PG rotation. If Teague couldn't get consistent minutes last season, Sy will have to get used to splinters. I don't fully trust either Kirk or Teague at this point but my expectation is that Teague will be the starter next season with Hinrich coming off the bench at both the 1 and the 2. I am also assuming Crawford will sign somewhere else.

[DrReality]

My first thought was who can we trust on the team? Smoove? JJ? Marvin?

Horf . . . . yes.

[Diesel]

My first thought was who can we trust on the team? Smoove? JJ? Marvin?

Horf . . . . yes.

Well, in terms of talking about trading Hinrich, that would put the major PG load on Teague. I don't know if we can fully trust him with that load. BUT... I'm willing to pursue him as starter as long as we have a hired gun (Hinrich or other) there who can back him up.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How did this thread become a thread about Josh Smith?

The best idea I've heard so far is to play Teague and Hinrich at the same time. The combo of those two in the backcourt would do a few things:

1. It would give the Hawks a strong defensive back court.

2. It would allow them to move Joe Johnson's defenisve assignment to the three position.

3. The two players actually have skills that compliment one another, which is a stark contrast to the Bibby/Johnson/Crawford unit we ran into the ground last year.

The only negative is that we would have no back court depth and no money to sign a good back up point guard because of Joe's ridiculous contract.

NO . . the negative is that the backcourt ( when they played together this year ), only really worked one time.

As a whole, the lineup was terrible, in the short time they played with each other ( a little over 30 minutes )

In fact, out of the top 25 lineups we put out on the floor this season, the Teague - Hinrich - Johnson - Smith - Horford lineup was the 2nd WORST lineup we could've put on the floor. The Teague - Hinrich backcourt is simply too small to get it done. They may be active and might get a few more steals, but the position defense just wasn't there this season when they did play with each other.

And I have no idea why you keep saying ( or inferring ) that JJ is a below average defender. He's an above average defender at the 2. Hell, he's even an above average defender at the 3. Very few guys light him up on a regular basis. JJ's weakness on defense is fighting through screens. But when it comes to guarding his man straight up, the opposing SG has a difficult time scoring over him. Ask Jason Richardson. Ask Luou Deng on those times in which he and JJ were pitted against each other.

JJ posts some of the best Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production numbers in the league. When he plays SG, the opposing SG only shot an eFG% of 46% . . scored 17.1 ppg per-48 minutes ( if adjusted for per-36 minutes, that would be 12.8 ppg ) . . and posted a PER of 11.6. Just for comparison, a guy that people cite as a better defender ( Ronnie Brewer ), has an Opponent Counterpart Per-48 Minute Production numbers of 46% eFG . . 19.3 points ( 14.5 ppg per-36 minutes ) . . and a PER of 12.7

The idea that JJ is some poor or even an defender is simply false. If anything, JJ possesses the ability to ratchet up his defense to borderline elite level, but he tends to coast at times during games ( but not in the 4th quarter ). But it's open season on Mr. Johnson these days, so it is to be expected.

And the Bibby - Crawford - JJ unit was one of our best offensive units last year, and came out on the positive end on most nights ( even if they had trouble stopping people ). And the same thing was true in 09 - 10. That was our offensive unit, with 2 guards who could created their own shot, and a PG that could spot up from 3 and knock down shots. But when Bibby started missing shots, that hurt big time.

Edited May 31, 2011 by northcyde