Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[Diesel]

People are highly overrating offense in regards to the Celtics big 3. As Dlpin will confirm, KG has an absolute Bill Russell impact on the Celtics that extends well beyond just him making shots. Their title hopes have been entirely dependent on him being healthy and effective since the moment he stepped in the garden. His first year there he played at an All World level and they won the championship, sure Pierce won Finals MVP but then so did Chauncey over Ben Wallace and Parker over Duncan, the award rewards offensive numbers not necessarily overall impact. The next season KG goes down with the knee injury and the Celtics were taken to 7 by a weak Bulls team before being knocked out in the second round. The season after that KG was working his way back from the injury and subsequent surgery and many were claiming him and the Celtics were done because he would never fully recover from it. Towards the end of the season he got healthy and despite not having homecourt advantage beyond the 1st round the Celtics knocked off Wade and the Heat, Lebron and the best team in the league and then Dwight and his Finals' runnerup Magic and took the Lakers to 7 and within a few seconds of a 2nd title.

Simply put, KG is Boston's best player no ifs ands or buts. When Boston made the Ray Allen trade people still didn't think that would put them over the top but then they made the KG trade after and the talk immediately became championships. Pierce had been there a millennium yet the team became KG's once he got there and he became the face of the franchise. It's no different in Miami, Wade may be the best scorer on the team but Lebron is the best player on that team.

End of story, Joe is a complimentary piece to a championship team, his impact doesn't extend beyond scoring and he doesn't even do that at an elite enough level to be the top scoring option on a championship caliber team sporting two other stars. Put him on a team with Paul and Dwight and he will still be the 3rd best player there despite being the one that would probably take the last shot. He did come on the scene from a Phoenix team where he was the 4th option behind All Stars Amar'e, Nash and Marion and it wasn't because it just turned out that way. The excuse that he gets double teamed so much because he doesn't have good teammates around him is the biggest fallacy I've seen. Joe get's double teamed more than other stars not because he has more ability or his teammates are worse but rather because it is a sound defensive strategy against him. Without question, no other star gets as confounded or stifled as Joe does when faced by a double because teams know he can't split the double consistently, is slow to make the decision to pass and wants to take a difficult long 2 pointer to begin with. Team's quickly come off doubles against Wade and Kobe because they can split it every single time and force the defense to a scramble to recover, Dirk can shoot over or has the perfect vision at 7 feet to find the open man when faced with a double thus how even a Deshawn Stevenson has worth on the Dallas team. Only Dwight has close to the same amount of issues with doubles but even he can find 1of 4 wide open shooters when doubled and can make the easy pass beyond being so physically dominant on both ends of the floor. Joe doesn't offer any of these things and the offense was unfortunately built around him despite his limitations thus why he and the team have been so easily stifled in the playoffs when faced with something that literally every other marquee player has seen for the past 60 years yet somehow never managed to struggle as much as Joe has despite having a range of good to terrible teams around them.

The problem that you decide described CTC is that all players can be complimentary to a championship.. so the need to describe a guy as #1 is futile. I said that in my first post in this thread.

We've been Jordanized, but the truth is that there is only one Jordan. And he never won without Pippen.

We're talking about Team building. And regardless of how much you kiss KG's *ss, they win no championship without Rondo. END OF STORY. And I can say that about each of those complimentary pieces.

It is the GM's job to build a team that can win. Not to find 1 guy who will carry everybody.

[AHF]

The problem that you decide described CTC is that all players can be complimentary to a championship.. so the need to describe a guy as #1 is futile. I said that in my first post in this thread.

We've been Jordanized, but the truth is that there is only one Jordan. And he never won without Pippen.

We're talking about Team building. And regardless of how much you kiss KG's *ss, they win no championship without Rondo. END OF STORY. And I can say that about each of those complimentary pieces.

It is the GM's job to build a team that can win. Not to find 1 guy who will carry everybody.

You can build a championship team with KG as the best player. The only way to do that with JJ as the best player is with some kind of fantasy roster. JJ + 2 lesser players and solid players to fill out the team - regardless of the skillset of those lesser players - doesn't equal a championship.

KG + two lesser players in PP and Allen along with a young up and comer and filler equaled a championship. With Rondo moving up in the pecking order to the range of PP and Allen, they also made it back to another finals.

I agree that no one player can do it all but very, very few teams win without an MVP quality player as the best guy on the team. Boston had that MVP quality guy in Garnett when they won the championship. JJ will never be an MVP quality guy. My best guess is that he is the #3 guy if he is added to the Boston championship roster.

[MaceCase]

The problem that you decide described CTC is that all players can be complimentary to a championship.. so the need to describe a guy as #1 is futile. I said that in my first post in this thread.

We've been Jordanized, but the truth is that there is only one Jordan. And he never won without Pippen.

We're talking about Team building. And regardless of how much you kiss KG's *ss, they win no championship without Rondo. END OF STORY. And I can say that about each of those complimentary pieces.

It is the GM's job to build a team that can win. Not to find 1 guy who will carry everybody.

The weather must be nice out there in Mars, Great One. You can tap dance all day and try to obfuscate the argument but the facts still remain the same, it is by far easier for a GM to build a better team around and find better compliments for a better player than Joe Johnson. That is, for all intents and purposes, the end of the story soooooooooooooooooooo I'm not interested in your childish antics today. Name to me a single Finals team over the past, let's say, 40 years and tell me which one of those teams Joe would be the best player on. Better yet, expand the sample size out to the Conference Finalists and answer the same question. See I've been here long enough, Dies, to know your MO. You will pop up in another few hours put out a wall of text citing some ancient team or philosophy or say something downright foolish all in an attempt to smokescreen the actual argument for which you have no answer or, better yet, the wrong answer to.

No team is doing anything of note with JJ as the #1 guy.

[Diesel]

You can build a championship team with KG as the best player. The only way to do that with JJ as the best player is with some kind of fantasy roster. JJ + 2 lesser players and solid players to fill out the team - regardless of the skillset of those lesser players - doesn't equal a championship.

KG + two lesser players in PP and Allen along with a young up and comer and filler equaled a championship. With Rondo moving up in the pecking order to the range of PP and Allen, they also made it back to another finals.

I agree that no one player can do it all but very, very few teams win without an MVP quality player as the best guy on the team. Boston had that MVP quality guy in Garnett when they won the championship. JJ will never be an MVP quality guy. My best guess is that he is the #3 guy if he is added to the Boston championship roster.

You meant to say...

KG + 2 first ballot hall of famers.

Even if you think that KG is better than those other guys, that doesn't diminish who they are?

That's like Saying Wade is nothing because he's playing next to Lebron.

Moreover, I don't think you can truly judge what JJ is without having a good sound team.

or atleast one other guy that can demand a double team?

[dlpin]

You meant to say...

KG + 2 first ballot hall of famers.

Even if you think that KG is better than those other guys, that doesn't diminish who they are?

That's like Saying Wade is nothing because he's playing next to Lebron.

Moreover, I don't think you can truly judge what JJ is without having a good sound team.

or atleast one other guy that can demand a double team?

Pierce and Allen only became 1st ballot hall of famers because of playing with KG and winning a title. Before that, they were borderline at best. Reggie Miller still isn't in, and if you look at Allen's career pre Boston they were very similar.

[Diesel]

The weather must be nice out there in Mars, Great One. You can tap dance all day and try to obfuscate the argument but the facts still remain the same, it is by far easier for a GM to build a better team around and find better compliments for a better player than Joe Johnson. That is, for all intents and purposes, the end of the story soooooooooooooooooooo I'm not interested in your childish antics today. Name to me a single Finals team over the past, let's say, 40 years and tell me which one of those teams Joe would be the best player on. Better yet, expand the sample size out to the Conference Finalists and answer the same question. See I've been here long enough, Dies, to know your MO. You will pop up in another few hours put out a wall of text citing some ancient team or philosophy or say something downright foolish all in an attempt to smokescreen the actual argument for which you have no answer or, better yet, the wrong answer to.

No team is doing anything of note with JJ as the #1 guy.

Better be from Mars than Fantasy Island.

On Fantasy Island... is this GM that you're making up.. Is he the GM of the Hawks?

I want you to understand the gravity of your statement.

Of all the players who we invited here..... There are only a few that have come in the history of this franchise. Cuttiing to the chase...

Dominique "Stevie Franchised" his way to Atlanta by not playing for Utah.

Deke was paid very handsomely to be a Hawk.

Steve Smith was traded for (Kevin Willis).

Jason Terry was drafted.

Shareef Abdur Rahim was traded for around draft day.

This list is special because it starts from 1986 allstar appearances.

1. Dominique = 9.

2. Joe Johnson = 5.

3. Deke = 4.

4. Steve Smith = 1.

4. Shareef = 1.

5. Mookie = 1.

6. Willis = 1

7. Laettner = 1.

Joe has been to 5 allstar game. 2nd amoung Hawks since 1986. Joe was voted in by the coaches every time.

Here's the kicker... none of these players (since 1986) has gone further than the 2nd round in the playoffs.

So in your fantasy island..

There's a Hawks GM that can entice a star who is better than 5 time allstar Joe Johnson to come here? You said it is far easier..

Well, I say History disagrees with you in the real world.

It is not far easier for an Atlanta GM to get a player better than Joe Johnson and build around him.

Nique was good enough to win a championship.

Nique got the closest to getting out of the second round.

Nique had Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, John Battle, Randy Wittman (3 allstars) and everybody shot over 45%,,,

Since you're on fantasy island... I would be remissed if I didn't say... "Smiles Everyone"... :derisive:

Pierce and Allen only became 1st ballot hall of famers because of playing with KG and winning a title. Before that, they were borderline at best. Reggie Miller still isn't in, and if you look at Allen's career pre Boston they were very similar.

The same is true about KG playing with them.

KG would not have gotten hall of fame credentials without getting to the finals.

[MaceCase]

Garnett was a first ballot hall of famer well before he got to Boston and I guess as is usual Diesel he now believes that Atlanta GMs not being able to get a, I guess, a better player than Joe Johnson now means a team could win with Joe as a first option. As predictable as the sunrise, you are wrong no matter the amount of deflections you use.

[Diesel]

Garnett was a first ballot hall of famer well before he got to Boston and I guess as is usual Diesel he now believes that Atlanta GMs not being able to get a, I guess, a better player than Joe Johnson now means a team could win with Joe as a first option. As predictable as the sunrise, you are wrong no matter the amount of deflections you use.

Stats don't get you into the Hall of Fame. You have to actually get somewhere.

This is why T-Mac won't be a first ballot Hall of famer.

This is why Bernard King (22.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.3 apg shooting 51.8% in a 14 yr career) is not in the Hall of fame.

This is why Artis Gilmore was not a first ballot Hall of famer. (18.8, 12.3, 2.3 shooting 58.2% in a 17 yr career).

But guys like Gilmore couldn't be first ballot. Gilmore had to wait.. because his playoffs were not as good as his career stats.

Right now, KG's numbers are 19.5, 10.5, 4.7 on 49.8% shooting. Had he stayed in Minnesota, never made a finals, it would have took time for him to get into the Hall of fame.

And before you make the mistake of talking bad about Gilmore...

Gilmore excelled in college, the ABA and the NBA and it will always be a mystery why the Basketball Hall of Fame spent nearly two decades ignoring his accomplishments. Gilmore is one of only five Division I players who posted career averages of at least 20 ppg and at least 20 rpg and he led Jacksonville to the 1970 NCAA Championship Game, where the Dolphins lost to one of UCLA's dynasty teams (the Bruins were in the midst of a run that included seven straight NCAA titles). Gilmore won both the 1971-72 ABA Rookie of the Year and regular season MVP awards (beating out--among others--Pantheon member Julius Erving); the only other players who have pulled off the RoY/MVP double are Wilt Chamberlain (1960, NBA), Wes Unseld (1969, NBA) and Spencer Haywood (1970, ABA). Gilmore led the Kentucky Colonels to the 1975 ABA Championship before enjoying a long, very productive NBA career spent mainly with the Chicago Bulls and San Antonio Spurs.

Gilmore ranks second in ABA/NBA career field goal percentage (.5819, just behind Shaquille O'Neal's .5823), fourth in ABA/NBA career blocked shots* (3178, surpassed only by Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and fifth in ABA/NBA career total rebounds (16,330, trailing only Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Moses Malone and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar); Gilmore is actually the NBA's all-time field goal percentage leader (.599) but he shot a lower percentage during his ABA career.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Diesel

[AHF]

You meant to say...

KG + 2 first ballot hall of famers.

Even if you think that KG is better than those other guys, that doesn't diminish who they are?

That's like Saying Wade is nothing because he's playing next to Lebron.

Moreover, I don't think you can truly judge what JJ is without having a good sound team.

or atleast one other guy that can demand a double team?

That is the point. When the condition is whether JJ can win a title as his team's best player, you are capping how good his teammates can be. Garnett was so good he could be clearly the best player on a team with PP and Allen.

With JJ as your team's best player you will never have that luxury. It is only when you pair JJ with superior players that you can start thinking championship realistically.

[MaceCase]

Stats don't get you into the Hall of Fame. You have to actually get somewhere.

This is why T-Mac won't be a first ballot Hall of famer.

This is why Bernard King (22.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.3 apg shooting 51.8% in a 14 yr career) is not in the Hall of fame.

This is why Artis Gilmore was not a first ballot Hall of famer. (18.8, 12.3, 2.3 shooting 58.2% in a 17 yr career).

But guys like Gilmore couldn't be first ballot. Gilmore had to wait.. because his playoffs were not as good as his career stats.

Right now, KG's numbers are 19.5, 10.5, 4.7 on 49.8% shooting. Had he stayed in Minnesota, never made a finals, it would have took time for him to get into the Hall of fame.

And before you make the mistake of talking bad about Gilmore...

You will pop up in another few hours put out a wall of text citing some ancient team or philosophy or say something downright foolish all in an attempt to smokescreen the actual argument for which you have no answer or, better yet, the wrong answer to.

The sunrise was mighty fine this morning as usual.

So, Great One, seeing as you enjoy arguing against yourself, if Kevin Garnett is or was not a first ballot hall of famer where then would you rank Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? Would you say they would have made the Hall before or after he did given their individual performances? I await your next number because the question is rather rhetorical but I'm sure you'll invent some new move to try to sidestep it.

And of course your can research (or reach into the recess of your mind) Gilmore but you can't give me an answer on which Finals or Conference Finalist team you wholeheartedly believe Joe would be the best player on.....That is, after all, the purpose of both this thread and the team itself but I guess when you move around like a Whirling Dervish so much you tend to actually lose perspective along with a lot of other things.

[Diesel]

That is the point. When the condition is whether JJ can win a title as his team's best player, you are capping how good his teammates can be. Garnett was so good he could be clearly the best player on a team with PP and Allen.

With JJ as your team's best player you will never have that luxury. It is only when you pair JJ with superior players that you can start thinking championship realistically.

That's true about most players in the league who are multitalented.

JJ is not TMac... and I think we're glad that he's not. TMac could give you several 50 point games. But TMac is not going to be able to lead a team anywhere.

JJ is not Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson is high on the scale of mutlitalentedness... BUT, Magic played with a lot of superstars.

JJ is not Kobe. JJ does not have the skill level that Kobe have. They have the same skillset, but not the same skill level.

Kobe and the Lakers got Swept this year and I would say that he had a better cast than Joe has. Gasol Bynum and Odom easily trumps Horf, Smoove and Marvin.

JJ is not Lebron. JJ does not have the same physical attributes as Lebron. But that said, I do believe that JJ does some things better than Lebron. But there's a huge disparity between FTAs. That's what Joe doesn't do well. He doesn't drive and get to the FT line as much as most headliners. That is what holds Joe back and is the uniqueness of Joe Johnson as opposed to other stars. For his career, Joe averages something like 3 FTA per game. That's it. I bet if you found the average Superstar, they go to the line 8 -10 times per game. It's a style difference. Joe is not going to be the guy who makes the most noise on the team. He's not going to be parked in front of cameras. He's not going to get a lot of commercials. It's a style difference. He's penalized because his style doesn't lead to him staying on the free throw line or in the paint a lot. However, the way he gets his scores and with the cast that he has, it really shows that he does a lot.

Wade is considered a first ballot hall of famer.

He has been on some bad teams that couldn't get into the 2nd round.

He has also paired up with Shaq.. with Lebron/Bosh... with Butler others.

He averages about 25 ppg.

He gets to the line about 9 times per game.

Joe gets to the line about 3. That's 6 less times than Wade. Their style of play is going to be different. However, Joe still puts up his share of points. Joe still leads his team in assists.

The bottom line is that too many people are trying to place JJ in a box and say you have to do these things to be a superstar. However, they don't consider the things that he do and the conditions that he does them in. None of these other superstars could win championships in the conditions that Joe is in. They would just play a style that some people think would be more enjoyable. However, when they have to beat a double team every play of the game, I think the days would grow very long for these other guys.

The sunrise was mighty fine this morning as usual.

So, Great One, seeing as you enjoy arguing against yourself, if Kevin Garnett is or was not a first ballot hall of famer where then would you rank Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? Would you say they would have made the Hall before or after he did given their individual performances? I await your next number because the question is rather rhetorical but I'm sure you'll invent some new move to try to sidestep it.

I heard that Crack makes you forgetful...

You must have forgotten this statement you made while you were on your crack binge...

]Garnett was a first ballot hall of famer well before he got to Boston and I guess as is usual Diesel he now believes that Atlanta GMs not being able to get a, I guess, a better player than Joe Johnson now means a team could win with Joe as a first option. As predictable as the sunrise, you are wrong no matter the amount of deflections you use.

In the words of Whitney Houston... "Crack is whack"...

[MaceCase]

It is rather pathetic that someone would resort to lame insults just to make themselves and their argument look somehow dumber than it already is.

AHF said:

KG + two lesser players in PP and Allen along with a young up and comer and filler equaled a championship

The Great One retorted:

You meant to say...

KG + 2 first ballot hall of famers

Dlpin chimed in:

Pierce and Allen only became 1st ballot hall of famers because of playing with KG and winning a title

C2C added:

Garnett was a first ballot hall of famer well before he got to Boston

The Great One retorted:

rassum frassum TMac, frassum Artis Gilmore, rassum Bernard King.

Bernard King had 4 All Star appearances and made an All NBA team 4 times, 2 first teams, 1 second and 1 third.

Gilmore had 6 NBA All star appearances and one NBA All Defensive 2nd team.

TMac has 7 All Star selections, 7 All NBA teams, 2 first teams, 3 second teams, and 2 third teams

Garnett had 10 All Star appearances, 8 All NBA teams (3 first teams, 3 second teams and 2 third teams), 8 All Defensive teams (6 first team, 2 second team) and a Most Valuable Player award........All before he got to Boston.

Allen had 7 All Star appearances and two All NBA teams (1 second and 1 third team)

Pierce had 5 All Stars and two All NBA teams (both third team)

Yea, I'm failing to see how Allen and Pierce were on KG's level or how he wasn't a first ballot HOFer before he got to Boston.

Crack may be whack but ignorance is whacker.

[dlpin]

The same is true about KG playing with them.

KG would not have gotten hall of fame credentials without getting to the finals.

No. Just no.

Every single eligible NBA mvp is in the hall of fame. Even those who did not win a title, like Malone and Barkley.

KG would not be the first one out.

[AHF]

That's true about most players in the league who are multitalented.

Let me tell you who it is not true about:

2011 - Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki

2010 - Kobe Bryant

2009 - Kobe Bryant

2008 - Kevin Garnett

2007 - Tim Duncan

2006 - Dwayne Wade

2005 - Tim Duncan

2004 - Pistons exception

2003 - Tim Duncan

2002 - Shaq

2001 - Shaq

2000 - Shaq

1999 - Tim Duncan

1998 - Michael Jordan

1997 - Michael Jordan

1996 - Michael Jordan

1995 - Hakeem Olajuwon

1994 - Hakeem Olajuwon

1993 - Michael Jordan

1992 - Michael Jordan

1991 - Michael Jordan

1990 - Isiah Thomas

1989 - Isiah Thomas

1988 - Magic Johnson

1987 - Magic Johnson

1986 - Larry Bird

I am sure you have picked up on the trend by now and how that MVP quality talent makes a difference for who wins the title.

[dlpin]

The MVP-Title connection is really very strong.

In NBA's entire history, only 6 mvps never won a title, and that number will reduce soon (malone, barkley, nash, iverson, nowitzki, lebron).

Conversely, the only nba champions that did not have an MVP are the1951 Rochester Royals, the 1979 seattle supersonics, and the 04 pistons. Which is why I said that for JJ to be the best player on a championship team it would have to be something like the 04 pistons, where the team has a top notch coach and all 5 players are sort of equivalent all stars (the one starter to never make an all star, Prince, was in the all defensive teams multiple times). Short of that, it is very, very unlikely that JJ wins a title as the best player.

[99PROBL3MS]

If you put Joe on a team with two other perennial all-stars and role players such as Chandler, Marion, Terry etc. yes he could be the best player on that team and seriously contend for a title.

Edited June 9, 2011 by 99PROBL3MS

[Diesel]

It is rather pathetic that someone would resort to lame insults just to make themselves and their argument look somehow dumber than it already is.

AHF said:

The Great One retorted:

Dlpin chimed in:

I like how you skipped what I said in between here...

C2C added:

It's more of that Crack smoke?? You are now making revisions in history based on your crack memory. Because I agreed wtih Dlpin that Allen and Peirce are first ballot Hall of famers because they came together and won a championship. Then I, The GREAT ONE, went on to say that KG Also became a first ballot hall of famer at the same time...

Then you bring in your delusional statement... and i had to lay fact after fact on you.

You can't stand the facts huh CTC??

Is it because I'm willing to seek truth in my effort to be right than just do anything to be right (like you're doing)?

Maybe you can find another picture.

Maybe you can get some more crack memories.

Maybe you can find some friend (probably your uncle) to come here so that you can plus 1 him everytime he disagrees with me.

Just Shows you How great I am. I don't need anybody to Plus 1 me to be right. The facts speak for themselves.

Maybe CTC stands for Change the Context?? Cause that's your next move... Change the Context. Change the subject. Make it about Diesel and his ego. Please, be my guest! They know me. And right now... They know you too!! Because this is your M.O.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Diesel

[Diesel]

No. Just no.

Every single eligible NBA mvp is in the hall of fame. Even those who did not win a title, like Malone and Barkley.

KG would not be the first one out.

Not true.

Spencer Heywood Still waits.

Artis Gilmore just got in.. but he had more credentials than most people who were picked first ballot. (Bill Walton amoung others)

Alex English is waiting. but he was never MVP

Dennis Johnson finally got in . But he was never MVP

Bernard King is waiting but he was never MVP.

The way that these selections are made is toss some names up in the air and whosoever name falls into a circle is in.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

In JJ's case, it would have to be on a team in which the next 2 guys on the squad would have to have close or equal talent.

A team like the 2000 Milwaukee Bucks with Cassell - Ray Alen - and Big Dog ( when he was a good scorer ) comes to mind.

An old school team like the mid-80s Dallas Mavericks with Blackman - Harper - and Aguirre

A team that actually got to the Finals, were those New Jersey teams with Carter - Kidd - Jefferson . . along with an aging Mutumbo one year.

The Seattle team with Payton - Kemp - Schremph

The mid - late 90s Pacer team with Reggie Miller - Smits - Mark Jackson . . and later on Jalen Rose.

So it would have to be the right mix. A mix in which those 3 could collectively lift themselves up.

Here's the thing about All-NBA teams. They tend to recognize the guys who play at an elite level. But they also recognize guys who may not be having a stellar year stat wise, but are one of the main cogs on a good to great team.

That's how JJ can be 3rd team All-NBA last year on a 53 win Hawk team, but not even be considered in 2006 - 07 when he averaged 25 pts - 4 rebs - 4 assists - 47% FG . . but barely makes the All-Star team as an injury replacement, let alone get no recognition for an All-NBA squad.

[Diesel]

Let me tell you who it is not true about:

2011 - Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki

2010 - Kobe Bryant

2009 - Kobe Bryant

2008 - Kevin Garnett

2007 - Tim Duncan

2006 - Dwayne Wade

2005 - Tim Duncan

2004 - Pistons exception

2003 - Tim Duncan

2002 - Shaq

2001 - Shaq

2000 - Shaq

1999 - Tim Duncan

1998 - Michael Jordan

1997 - Michael Jordan

1996 - Michael Jordan

1995 - Hakeem Olajuwon

1994 - Hakeem Olajuwon

1993 - Michael Jordan

1992 - Michael Jordan

1991 - Michael Jordan

1990 - Isiah Thomas

1989 - Isiah Thomas

1988 - Magic Johnson

1987 - Magic Johnson

1986 - Larry Bird

I am sure you have picked up on the trend by now and how that MVP quality talent makes a difference for who wins the title.

This is an argument, but it is a misleading argument.

I can easily say...

What about Malone? What about Dirk? What about Charles? What about Nash? What about Iverson? What about Robinson (pre Duncan)?

Then it goes back to what I pulled out before. 5 teams 51 NBA Championships.

Then you have to go back and look at those teams again.

Bird played with the original Big three.

Thomas played with Dumars and a team full of Pistons.

Magic had the Lakers.

Jordan had Pippen.

Robinson didn't do a thing until he got Duncan.

Duncan had either Robinson or Manu/Tony

Wade had Shaq.

Shaq had Kobe.

Kobe had Gasol

And the Second big three had each other.

What "real" all-star quality player does Joe have? Somebody you can mention with Dumars, Pippen, Kobe, Pierce, Allen and Gasol?

Why couldn't Shaq win a championship in Orlando?

Why did Barkley never win a championship?

You have to make an admission that MVP is just coincidental when you find the amount of MVPs that are ringless and the circumstances by which these MVPs got their rings.

They got their rings because they were on the right team at the right time.

KG was an MVP in Minny... Why couldn't he win a championship with them?

Let me help you. Wrong team. Wrong time.

Had he stayed there, he would have never won a championship.

Had Bron stayed in Cleveland, he would have not won a championship.

Bosh in Toronto would not have sniffed championship.

Rose in Chicago.. he has time.