Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[thescout5]

The answer is no the Hawks can't win with Joe being the no1 player.Whose fault is it when Joe can't hit his shots? Joe. Who is expected to be the leader of the team? Joe. Who didn't show up when it mattered? Joe. We can point to getting better players but still when star players are paid to put up results and can;t it's their failure and no one elses.Lets look at some stats vs Chicago.

Game 1 Joe had 16 pts,1 assist and 7 field goals result hawks lose by 20

Game 2 Joe had 10 pts,3 assts, 4 field goals result hawks lose by 12

Game 3 Joe had 24 pts, 5 assists, 9 field goals hawks win by 12

Game 4 Joe had 15 pts, 3 assists, 6 field goals hawks lose by 17

Gave 5 Joe had 19 pts, 4 assists, 7 field goals hawks lose by 13

Considering Joe is getting the max contract and doesn't do alot more than isolation basketball is he really a no1 and if he is just shows the lack of talent on the team. Joe is a good player but shouldn't be a no1 on a team that wants to win a championship.Does he make his teammates better when he isn't scoring? Not really. The Hawks need a top talent who can do it at crunch time. Joe isn't that man so if it took getting rid of Joe to get a superstar player I would. It would be one thing if Joe wans't making max on his contract but he is paid to be a no1 and doesn't perform when needed.

If we are comparing the Hawks to teams like the Pistons of Dumars,Thomas,Laimbeer who technically didn't have a superstar still most of their players could do more than one thing to help a team win.

[AHF]

I think people keep forgetting that KG came to Boston as a SUPERSTAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not a "all star" but a player many considered to be one of the 5 best platers in the game a legit quadruple double threat .

Rondo AND pierce AND Doc Rivers

Paul Pierce,

Al Jefferson,

Wally Szczerbiak,

Delonte West,

Ryan Gomes,

Tony Allen,

Gerald Green,

Rajon Rondo,

Allan Ray,

Sebastian Telfair

Kevinn Pinkney,

Kendrick Perkins,

Leon Powe, PF

Brian Scalabrine,

Theo Ratliff,

Michael Olowokandi,

COACHED BY DOC RIVERS

RECORD 24-58 LAST IN THE CONFERENCE

Rivers was on his way to being fired wow talk about short memories

The amount of excuses some of you are making with these comparisons is simply unreal . Joe does not suck but Joe is not on a Garnetts level not even close .

Comparing all star players to top ten players is simply crazy .

Pierce like Joe made a 3rd team all nba team but Boston decided that to actually win anything they would have to go and get a superstar which is what they did in Garnett who up to the year he was traded to Boston was either 1st or 2nd team all nba and 1st or 2nd team all defensive team .

I dont even know why I have to explain that .....

This is the truth. Talk about perception however you want but Garnett was a much better player when he joined the Celtics than JJ's career best season - especially in the playoffs. Garnett was a superstar at the time - JJ is a borderline All-Star. There is a very big difference.

[Diesel]

This is the truth. Talk about perception however you want but Garnett was a much better player when he joined the Celtics than JJ's career best season - especially in the playoffs. Garnett was a superstar at the time - JJ is a borderline All-Star. There is a very big difference.

Garnett is also a 7'0 freak of nature. BUT... when he went to the Celts... he was in decline. His stats looked good but what were the results?

32-50 and 4th in the northwest.

That's not that great.

[Crank]

Garnett is also a 7'0 freak of nature. BUT... when he went to the Celts... he was in decline. His stats looked good but what were the results?

32-50 and 4th in the northwest.

That's not that great.

Was Kobe in decline when the year before that when they won only 34 games ?

He was never considered in decline everyone just knew his team was screwed capwise and they would never be able to put a team around him .

The Twolves knew he had a player option just like the Nuggets knew Melo had one and they made a move rather than lose him for nothing

Al Jefferson 1st rd pick

Gerald Green, 1st rd pick

Sebastian Telfair lottery pick

Ryan Gomes rotation player

a future first-round draft pick and the return of a first-rounder

huge expiring

all that for a guy who was considered on the decline ? KG was a superstar and was traded to Boston as such

[Diesel]

Was Kobe in decline when the year before that when they won only 34 games ?

He was never considered in decline everyone just knew his team was screwed capwise and they would never be able to put a team around him .

The Twolves knew he had a player option just like the Nuggets knew Melo had one and they made a move rather than lose him for nothing

Al Jefferson 1st rd pick

Gerald Green, 1st rd pick

Sebastian Telfair lottery pick

Ryan Gomes rotation player

a future first-round draft pick and the return of a first-rounder

huge expiring

all that for a guy who was considered on the decline ? KG was a superstar and was traded to Boston as such

Look it over again.

The only person in that list that had the possibility of being an allstar is Jefferson.

Green and Telfair hadn't worked out.

Gomes was a surprise, but wasn't that great.

Let's just look at what they were saying then...

#1.

"If you're Minnesota, this is the way I would look at it: You're obviously not competing with the teams that are trying to win now, like San Antonio, Dallas, Phoenix, Utah and the Rockets. They're not going to be competing with them anytime soon. You're really competing four of five years down the road with teams like Seattle and Portland. You're going to have to get younger. And Minnesota's not going to come out and say it, but it wouldn't be the worst thing if they end up in the lottery, get a high draft pick and add one more young player. "

No mention about the great players that they got. In fact , he kinda projected Lottery with all those guys that you just praised.

#2

My NBA guide claims that McHale retired from the Celtics in 1993, but apparently that's a misprint. How else could you explain his decision to trade Kevin Garnett to Boston for the Al Jefferson pu pu platter deluxe? Just five weeks ago, McHale and Minnesota couldn't close a potential deal in which they received Jefferson and Boston's No. 5 pick. Now? They're settling for Jefferson (a potential franchise player), Ryan Gomes (an intangibles guy who's useless on a bad team), Bassy Telfair (a year away from signing in Italy), Gerald Green (a homeless man's J.R. Smith), Theo Ratliff's expiring deal, a 2009 lottery-protected No. 1 pick (congrats on picking in the mid-20s) and the return of Minny's future No. 1 that was stupidly included in the Ricky Davis/Mark Blount-Wally Szczerbiak trade.

I think this about says it all.

But wait, there's more..

Basically, McHale traded one of the best 25 players ever -- at the tail end of his prime!!! -- for Jefferson (a free agent in two years), one year of Gomes (a free agent in '08, when he'll be leaving treadmarks on his way out of Minnesota), a harmless pick and a do-over for a pick he never should have traded. Last month, McHale walked away from the No. 5 pick in the deal. This month, he couldn't even get Boston to throw in Rajon Rondo.

#3

And the Celtics basically got Garnett for a bag of peanuts and a can of cling peaches. The T-Wolves are taking Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Telfair and Theo Ratliff’s expiring contract. Jefferson and Green are nice players. Telfair is a waste of a good uniform. And as far as Ratliff’s expiring contract, that’s fine, but the reason you do that is to have flexibility under the cap to sign free agents. And who would want to go to Minnesota and play with this bunch now that KG is gone?

Edited June 5, 2011 by Diesel

[sasuke]

You said:

Here's what I need you to understand. We could have a trillion dollars in TPE, Cold Hard Cash, or Money under the cap. The result is going to be that we would still have to overpay for a free agent and without Joe, it is more than likely that we will not be able to get a superstar here... no matter how much money we have.

I know this because we've been here before. We've done the experiment. We have observed the results...and some of us have remembered that when have money, it's is damn near impossible to attract players to this franchise.

We are not some storied franchise with a stable ownership and a track record of doing what it takes to win a championship. We are a team with "green" owners who may have their hearts in the right place, but do not have the juice among the players to excite them or to validate the claim that we want to win.

Well, with the TPE you take a player on a trade, not sign them so the overpaying statement doesn't apply. But, in case of we under the cap or using the TPE, the idea is to get a player that, may be overpayed but, isn't as much as Joe ALLOWING US TO USE THE MLE OR TO TAKE ON MORE SALARY IN OTHER DEALS WITHOUT PAYING THE TAX.

That's #1.

Secondly. You may ask, why is that the reputation with all of our playoff appearances...

Well, take a look. Who is our coach?

We have had 2 assistant coaches that had never coached a team under these owners. Most championship teams have coaches that have been to a finals before.

Players know this. Star players know this all too well. Rookie coaches rarely go that far.

Thirdly.

Have you looked at what's going on in the league. We are entering the era of the superteams. You know Boston's big three. Miami's big three. NY is tryin to get a Big three. The Lakers had a big three. What does Atlanta have?? Lately, it's been Joe carrying a bunch of young players who can't create for themselves. The fact that Joe didn't take his talents to NY is amazing to me. Young teams rarely win anything. That's why this summer, Chicago will sell off most of their talented youth for a Star SG... and will have their big three. That's why Orlando will do all that it can to get CP3 so that it can have something like a big three.

Instead of us noticing what is happening in the league, you want to dilute our talent because of his contract?

Really?

Seriously?

He's still the best & most consistent player we have and the playoffs proved that.

Here's my thing. If you sell off Joe the way you describe, we will get younger but we will have no consistency. It will be 2006 all over again.

If we, a smaller market with currently no assets & with our current ownership, wanted to have a big 3 the only way to realistically do it is by blowing the team up & do it trough the draft. Like it or not, it is what it is. With different ownership, things could be different.

And the reason Joe didn't go to NY was cuz of the only way to get the 6th year of his contract (120 mill) is trough us by signing or by S&T. Don't make him look like a saint when he isn't.

Edited June 5, 2011 by sasuke

[AHF]

Anyone who thinks Garnett's first year in Boston wasn't vastly superior to anything ever JJ is out of their mind. By any measure of individual play, his play was superior to JJ's before coming to Boston (perception: All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive; stats: vastly superior to JJ's) and that continued after he went to Boston (perception: All-NBA and All-NBA Defensive; stats: vastly superior to JJ's).

This doesn't mean that JJ wasn't an outstanding player - just that Garnett was on another level.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You said:

Here's what I need you to understand. We could have a trillion dollars in TPE, Cold Hard Cash, or Money under the cap. The result is going to be that we would still have to overpay for a free agent and without Joe, it is more than likely that we will not be able to get a superstar here... no matter how much money we have.

I know this because we've been here before. We've done the experiment. We have observed the results...and some of us have remembered that when have money, it's is damn near impossible to attract players to this franchise.

We are not some storied franchise with a stable ownership and a track record of doing what it takes to win a championship. We are a team with "green" owners who may have their hearts in the right place, but do not have the juice among the players to excite them or to validate the claim that we want to win.

That's #1.

Secondly. You may ask, why is that the reputation with all of our playoff appearances...

Well, take a look. Who is our coach?

We have had 2 assistant coaches that had never coached a team under these owners. Most championship teams have coaches that have been to a finals before.

Players know this. Star players know this all too well. Rookie coaches rarely go that far.

Thirdly.

Have you looked at what's going on in the league. We are entering the era of the superteams. You know Boston's big three. Miami's big three. NY is tryin to get a Big three. The Lakers had a big three. What does Atlanta have?? Lately, it's been Joe carrying a bunch of young players who can't create for themselves. The fact that Joe didn't take his talents to NY is amazing to me. Young teams rarely win anything. That's why this summer, Chicago will sell off most of their talented youth for a Star SG... and will have their big three. That's why Orlando will do all that it can to get CP3 so that it can have something like a big three.

Instead of us noticing what is happening in the league, you want to dilute our talent because of his contract?

Really?

Seriously?

He's still the best & most consistent player we have and the playoffs proved that.

Here's my thing. If you sell off Joe the way you describe, we will get younger but we will have no consistency. It will be 2006 all over again.

Excellent post.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The answer is no the Hawks can't win with Joe being the no1 player.Whose fault is it when Joe can't hit his shots? Joe. Who is expected to be the leader of the team? Joe. Who didn't show up when it mattered? Joe. We can point to getting better players but still when star players are paid to put up results and can;t it's their failure and no one elses.Lets look at some stats vs Chicago.

Game 1 Joe had 16 pts,1 assist and 7 field goals result hawks lose by 20

Game 2 Joe had 10 pts,3 assts, 4 field goals result hawks lose by 12

Game 3 Joe had 24 pts, 5 assists, 9 field goals hawks win by 12

Game 4 Joe had 15 pts, 3 assists, 6 field goals hawks lose by 17

Gave 5 Joe had 19 pts, 4 assists, 7 field goals hawks lose by 13

Considering Joe is getting the max contract and doesn't do alot more than isolation basketball is he really a no1 and if he is just shows the lack of talent on the team. Joe is a good player but shouldn't be a no1 on a team that wants to win a championship.Does he make his teammates better when he isn't scoring? Not really. The Hawks need a top talent who can do it at crunch time. Joe isn't that man so if it took getting rid of Joe to get a superstar player I would. It would be one thing if Joe wans't making max on his contract but he is paid to be a no1 and doesn't perform when needed.

If we are comparing the Hawks to teams like the Pistons of Dumars,Thomas,Laimbeer who technically didn't have a superstar still most of their players could do more than one thing to help a team win.

This post is amazing.

In your attempt to discredit JJ as much as you can, you not only have the Bulls beating us in 5 games ( instead of 6 ) you completely skip over Game 1, and list Game 2 as game 1. And how nice of you to do that . . because Game 1 was JJ's BEST GAME OF THE PLAYOFFS . . and arguably the 2nd best scoring game by ANY Atlanta Hawk on the road during the playoffs in franchise history ( Nique's 47 vs Boston being the other game ).

How in the hell do you skip or "forget" THIS GAME?

{\

LOL . . it was he and Teague that played well in Game 2 ( going a combined 14 - 29 FG ) . . but Josh and Al went a combined 7 - 26 FG. JJ had 16 points - 5 rebs - 5 steals in Game 2. Had our frontline showed up, maybe we could've gone to ATL up 2 - 0, instead of tied 1 - 1.

The fact is that JJ would have a better chance of showing up on a nightly basis, if there was someone else who could consistently show up to keep him from facing double teams every night. Dirk even faces fewer double teams than JJ, because the people around Dirk can shoot. LOL . . even Wade and Lebron see less double teams than JJ. But people are mad at JJ because he can't consistently put up 20 ppg vs double teams?

JJ isn't a superstar. But he's one of the only players on this team who can occasionally raise his game to a superstar level. Trade him away, and don't get a similar or greater star in return, and the Hawks are dead in the water come playoff time.

[Diesel]

Yep Northcyde.

Nobody wants to talk about the numbers that Joe put up in game 1 that led to them continuously doubling him throughout the series.

[thescout5]

This post is amazing.

In your attempt to discredit JJ as much as you can, you not only have the Bulls beating us in 5 games ( instead of 6 ) you completely skip over Game 1, and list Game 2 as game 1. And how nice of you to do that . . because Game 1 was JJ's BEST GAME OF THE PLAYOFFS . . and arguably the 2nd best scoring game by ANY Atlanta Hawk on the road during the playoffs in franchise history ( Nique's 47 vs Boston being the other game ).

How in the hell do you skip or "forget" THIS GAME?

{\

LOL . . it was he and Teague that played well in Game 2 ( going a combined 14 - 29 FG ) . . but Josh and Al went a combined 7 - 26 FG. JJ had 16 points - 5 rebs - 5 steals in Game 2. Had our frontline showed up, maybe we could've gone to ATL up 2 - 0, instead of tied 1 - 1.

The fact is that JJ would have a better chance of showing up on a nightly basis, if there was someone else who could consistently show up to keep him from facing double teams every night. Dirk even faces fewer double teams than JJ, because the people around Dirk can shoot. LOL . . even Wade and Lebron see less double teams than JJ. But people are mad at JJ because he can't consistently put up 20 ppg vs double teams?

JJ isn't a superstar. But he's one of the only players on this team who can occasionally raise his game to a superstar level. Trade him away, and don't get a similar or greater star in return, and the Hawks are dead in the water come playoff time.

My apologies Northcyde on the game stats. I got them from ESPN and noticed at the bottom of the screen it only gives 5 games at a time, my error. Then I looked at the overall stats with each game and yes your right Joe had a great game the first game. Pair that with his other 20+ effort and he played well in 2 of the 6 games. Hardly superstar status which this team needs. The question of the thread is can the Hawks win a title with Joe being the no1 and you answered it. No he isn't a superstar and yes you need at least one to go far and probably 2 to win a title. Joe is a supporting player and isn't a no1, Very few players in the league can carry a team so I go back to my statement this team needs better overall talent . If it takes moving Joe's salary to get a bonafide no1 type player then do it. The Hawks aren't going to be winning any titles soon with this current group because they can't play defense or rebound and the half court game isn't good.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

My apologies Northcyde on the game stats. I got them from ESPN and noticed at the bottom of the screen it only gives 5 games at a time, my error. Then I looked at the overall stats with each game and yes your right Joe had a great game the first game. Pair that with his other 20+ effort and he played well in 2 of the 6 games. Hardly superstar status which this team needs. The question of the thread is can the Hawks win a title with Joe being the no1 and you answered it. No he isn't a superstar and yes you need at least one to go far and probably 2 to win a title. Joe is a supporting player and isn't a no1, Very few players in the league can carry a team so I go back to my statement this team needs better overall talent . If it takes moving Joe's salary to get a bonafide no1 type player then do it. The Hawks aren't going to be winning any titles soon with this current group because they can't play defense or rebound and the half court game isn't good.

But that still isn't going to solve the problem here. You can bring Kobe or Lebron on here, and teams would still double and even triple the hell out of Kobe or Lebron, and force the other guys to beat them. As was shown when Kobe and Lebron didn't have dependable people around, you still need people around them to step up, in order for the team to win. Kobe was ready to leave LA, before he got Pau Gasol.

But if JJ was playing alongside one of those guys, now teams can't afford to double a Kobe or Lebron, and leave JJ open. It's a reason why those two guys had trouble elevating their teams to NBA Finals level when they didn't have a dependable #2 guy playing alongside them.

The problem with this team is we don't have a dependable low post scorer who can give us timely offense in and around the paint. If you have a star guard, you'd ideally want a star foward or center to form that inside-outside offensive attack. A team has to have that 2nd guy who can create his own shot, and probably a 3rd guy who can be dependable enough to knock down the open jumper.

When the Hawks are good, it's usually JJ + some other guy getting it done. In the Orlando series and in Game 1 of the Chicago series, it was JJ and Jamal. In Game 4 of the Chicago series, it was JJ and Smith.

But now, you want to trade the guy who could be the legit #2 to bring in a #1 . . . but still have #3's around that #1. It's essentially what doomed Chicago.

Magic is talking about it right now. Other guys have to step up to help the star. He's specifically talking about the starters on Dallas helping Dirk out, so that the burden won't be all on the bench ( Terry and Barea ). Dirk dropped 34 tonight, but the team only scores 86 points and they lose. Why? Because the #2 guy ( Terry ) helped a little, but had an off game, and no one else stepped up as a #3 guy.

[thescout5]

I'm not sure how your going to bring a legit no1 star player with the cap situation the Hawks are in. Players who under perform like Marvin need to be off the team. Horford didn't play well but I'll give him one bad year. Smoove still takes to many bad shots and I doubt the team can coexist and the Hawks win a title. I agree a low post scorer is needed badly especially to give the Hawks a half court game in the playoffs. Neither Smoove or Horford seem to be the answer come playoff time. If you want a no1 threat then a few players are going to need to go. Sounds like you don't want to touch JJ and his salary. Who gets moved to bring someone in?

The other problem with this team is defense. I think we are more than one offensive low post player away. Basketball IQ is not good on this team thus a vet would be nice to bring in that can play the game but who? There are to many me players and team unity with high basketball IQ is important winning in the playoffs.We have to many one dimensionial players and that includes Joe.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's not that I don't want to touch JJ and his salary. It's just that when other teams were faced with a similar type of situation, they didn't trade their best or highest paid offensive player when they brought in a better star. When Boston made their move, they didn't trade away Pierce in the Kevin Garnett deal. Miami didn't get rid of Wade when they brought in Lebron and Bosh. When LA and Miami made the Shaq trade, Miami didn't part with Dwyane Wade then either.

But say we trade JJ for a superstar caliber player . . . say we trade him for Chris Paul.

A Paul - Smith - Horford trio looks great. But in the playoffs, does that team get us to that next level? In my eyes, the only way that trio gets us to the next level, is if Smith or Horford become solid enough offensively to be a somewhat dependable #2 guy. You'd have to think that Paul would make both guys better. But in crunch time, could either guy create a shot and bail the team out if the ball was out of Paul's hands? In the playoffs, that's what it seems as if these games come down to. Who can bail his team out with a tough shot.

A JJ trade more than likely does not bring a superstar to ATL. It'll bring maybe a complimentary player and/or a very large Traded Player Exception though. To me . . that means that we're about to take some steps back and rebuild. If that's what people want . . fine.

Just understand that stars and superstars run this league. If we don't get back an equal or better star than JJ back in a trade for him, we're not going to progress as a team ( unless a guy like Teague can become a legit #2 scorer ). Without the ability to create their own shot, I just don't see Horford or Smith raising their game to a level that they can be a legit #2.

Edited June 6, 2011 by northcyde

[dlpin]

I think you guys are mixing up the arguments a bit. One side seems to be arguing that it is not Joe's fault that the team hasn't moved beyond the 2nd round, and the other is arguing that Joe cannot be the best player on the team if the hope is to win it all. The thing is that both those statements can be true.

As far as the debate itself, the comparison to the celtics is not a good one. At least 2 of the big 3 were better than what Joe Johnson currently is. If the hawks are looking for a blueprint, the 04 pistons would be a much better model to emulate. Lots of borderline all stars, good coherent unit and good coaching. That should be the goal. As for the celtics, as the board's resident celtics fan, let me address a few things:

I think it was Diesel that brought up the Paul Pierce example, which was a guy who was much maligned by the fan base as a guy who couldn't get the Celtics even to playoff level once Antoine Walker left. But once he got legit help in the form of KG and Allen, he all of a sudden became a more efficient, even iconic player for the Celtics. Because he didn't have to do it every night, he sacrificed some of his shots, but made the most of the shots he took.

Paul Pierce was never maligned by the fanbase. Antoine Walker was. Pierce made the playoffs the first year without Walker (03-04), and when the celtics failed to make the playoffs the two years after Walker's second stint with the team, the fanbase maligned Doc (in 05-06) and in 06-07 everyone knew the team was tanking for the draft.

Sturt . . the sad thing about this thread is that of the games that we DID win in the playoffs, JJ was either THE REASON or the 2nd top reason why.

And people saw that, but rip into the guy because he couldn't do it for 12 games, instead of 6.

The fact is that if we had guys on JJ's level, especially if they're guys who can get their own shot . . with one of those being a big . . we probaly beat Chicago.

Because even if JJ was off, you'd have 2 other guys who could take the scoring lead.

People talk about KG in Boston, but the better comparison may be to talk about KG in Minnesota. KG in Munnesota was a very good player who couldn't get it done in the playoffs. 7 consecutive 1st round losses for him. And their fans talked about how he couldn't make game winning shots.

But lo and behold, as soon as he got complimentarty guys who had the ability to take over a game and make big shots, keeping KG from doing everything, the T-Wolves damn near made the NBA Finals.

( Talking about Cassell and Spreewell, of course ).

JJ and Jamal, when playing together, are essentially 1a and 1b. So imagine if we had a 1c that did most of his scoring down low? At that point, we may only need 2 of the 3 to be real good on any given night, to win a game. If all 3 were good, we'd be tough to beat.

We were 6 - 0 when JJ got 20 pts or more . . 5 - 1 when Crawford got 20 pts or more. If we had a 3rd guy that could get us 20 pts down low on ant given night, that would be the type of asset needed to get the Hawks to the next level.

JJ plays with much better players than KG ever played with in MN. Horford alone is better than anyone he played with there. KG made it to the conference finals with a team that started a 34 year old Sam Cassell, a 33 year old Sprewell, Trenton Hassel (who in any other playoff team wouldn't even be in the rotation) and a 36 year old Ervin Johnson. None of these players hold a candle to Crawford, Horford, and, on good days, Smith.

I still think that KG is getting too much credit as the guy on those successful BOS teams. He was definitely a key cog and perhaps the most important but those teams were well constructed and and well coached. Our current roster pales in comparison to those BOS teams and JJ isn't the reason why. I get the premise, but don't see much symmetry between the two situations.

No, it is actually the opposite: KG doesn't get enough credit. Paul Pierce is still playing at a similar level that he was in 08. Same for Allen. Rondo is much better. And yet the celtics are much worse. Why? KG has slowed down considerably because of injuries. When KG went down in 09, the celtics started allowing 9 points more per game. A single player being responsible for a 9 point swing in one end of the floor is incredible. This was a team that in 09 was 27-2 when he first got hurt. And he continued playing hurt, and when he aggravated the injury the celtics were 44-11. They finished 62-20. So fully healthy KG: 27-2 ; KG playing injured or out, 35-18.

I do agree that there is no symmetry between the two teams.

No. By the time he was traded, he was no longer considered a superstar. He was seen as a statpadder who was on the down side of his career. He had never met the promise that his stats and allstar appearances suggested. That's why they traded him.

Yes, he was considered a superstar. And no, KG was never seen as statpadder. In fact, one of the knocks against him was precisely that he wasn't aggressive enough in looking for his shot. Criticism of him was precisely because he hesitated to "take over" offensively. The reason they traded him was never because he never met the promise. If anything, he exceeded the promise of a 5th pick. He was traded because the Wolves were going nowhere fast, so they wanted to rebuild and get cap space instead of losing him for nothing.

[Diesel]

I'm not sure how your going to bring a legit no1 star player with the cap situation the Hawks are in. Players who under perform like Marvin need to be off the team. Horford didn't play well but I'll give him one bad year. Smoove still takes to many bad shots and I doubt the team can coexist and the Hawks win a title. I agree a low post scorer is needed badly especially to give the Hawks a half court game in the playoffs. Neither Smoove or Horford seem to be the answer come playoff time. If you want a no1 threat then a few players are going to need to go. Sounds like you don't want to touch JJ and his salary. Who gets moved to bring someone in?

The other problem with this team is defense. I think we are more than one offensive low post player away. Basketball IQ is not good on this team thus a vet would be nice to bring in that can play the game but who? There are to many me players and team unity with high basketball IQ is important winning in the playoffs.We have to many one dimensionial players and that includes Joe.

You have to be willing to trade some of the sacred cows around here. Horford and Smoove are tradable as are all the Hawks. Right now, they have more value than Joe does because of cap. Who here wouldn't do a trade that would give us back Howard for Horford? or Even Bogut for Horford. Same for Smoove. Then there's Crawford and Hinrich. There's a deal that can be made with Crawford when the time comes.

Now, if there comes a really good trade for JJ, then we do it. However, to trade JJ just to get some more non-star players and cap space is stupid.

[Joker]

Horford is not tradable Diesel, not even 2% tradable.

Smith is tradable but for a steep price which could be really hard to get.

Jamal will be brought back depending on the CBA.

JJ is going nowhere. He's as untouchable as Horford. The Hawks shown no interest in moving him.

Marvin could be had for a TPE or exp deal but that might not be possible. He is not on the market in general.

Teague is almost untouchable, he can be had but Atlanta will want more than they want for Smith which is a lot as it is.

Hinrich isn't available but can be had for a premium.

That's it for the Hawks.

[Diesel]

JJ plays with much better players than KG ever played with in MN. Horford alone is better than anyone he played with there. KG made it to the conference finals with a team that started a 34 year old Sam Cassell, a 33 year old Sprewell, Trenton Hassel (who in any other playoff team wouldn't even be in the rotation) and a 36 year old Ervin Johnson. None of these players hold a candle to Crawford, Horford, and, on good days, Smith.

I have to disagree with this.

First and foremost, I think that's a big disrespect to Marbury and Googs. Also a disrespect to Cassell and Sprewell. Also a disrespect to Zerbiac.

However, granted, that KG didn't have the big names, I think he had something that Joe has never had..

The available skillsets.

No superstar can overcome the lack of a skillset on his team.

Two of the most needed skillsets come from the Center position. Low Post offense and defense.

For everything that we can say about Horf, he is not a low post threat.

KG never needed that because that what he was and is.

The best that Joe can be is a player on a jumpshooting team wihtout those skillsets.

The other skillset missing was a floor general.

Again, we just got that this year with Hinirch.

Bibby was a boost but Bibby has never really been the floor general.

KG had Marbury or Cassell up until 2004 and that's when the team started to break down. Marbury and Cassell are two of best floor generals that anybody could play with.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJ plays with much better players than KG ever played with in MN. Horford alone is better than anyone he played with there. KG made it to the conference finals with a team that started a 34 year old Sam Cassell, a 33 year old Sprewell, Trenton Hassel (who in any other playoff team wouldn't even be in the rotation) and a 36 year old Ervin Johnson. None of these players hold a candle to Crawford, Horford, and, on good days, Smith.

The 34 year old Sam Cassell shot 49% FG - 40% 3FG and averaged 20 points and 7 assists the year Minnesota went to the WCF. He had one of his best years of his career that year. Cassell, even more than KG, was the leader of that squad that kept them steady and had the ability to make big shot after big shot. Since people love using PER and win score/48, Cassell's PER that year was a whopping 22.8 ( ridiculous for a PG, seeing that PER usually favors the high scoring, high rebounding PF types ) and had a win score per 48 minute number of .205. Both numbers trump the best seasons of Horford, Smith, AND Joe Johnson. Cassell scored 20 points or more in 41 of the 81 games he played in that year. That made him a legit #2 option that had the ability to even be a #1 option at times. Neither Horford nor Smith have ever been able to score like that. He played so well, that he earned 2nd team All-NBA.

Spreewell was a former #1 then a #2 option type scorer who could get his own shot. On that Minnesota team, he was the ideal #3 option with his ability to score the basketball from the SF position. He was essentially their Jamal Crawford, a guy who was streaky, but could explode and have a big game every now and then. 34 games of 20 points or more and 6 games of 30 points or more for Spree that year.

Both Hassell and Ervin Johnson were defensive guys who could limit what their man did at their respective position. Johnson was essentially a better version of Jason Collins, while Hassell always drew the assignment against the best perimeter scoring wing. Those two moves kept KG from playing center all the time, and kept Spree from having to guard the top offensive scorer at times, enabling both guys to have the energy to still play defense, but really concentrate on offense.

Their starting 5 trumps any starting 5 that JJ has had in Atlanta. They were the perfect balance of elite offensive scoring and defensive prowess. You couldn't double KG in the post, because Cassell would kill you with the 3 ball and Spree was still a decent slasher to the hole.

And that's not even including the high percentage 3 point shooters they could bring off the bench in the form of Fred Hoiberg, Wally Szczerbiak, and Troy Hudson, who all shot above 40% from 3 that year.

Olowokandi was sorry for a former #1 pick, but serviceable as a stop gap center. Gary Trent ( the Shaq of the MAC ) was at least seviceable as a backup PF that played limited minutes ( posted a PER of 12.9 that season, which was better than Josh Powell, Shelden Williams, Joe Smith, or any other reserve PF we've had here ). Even Mark Madsen's goofy self brought something to the table as an energy guy that could play PF and a little C. LOL @ him and that "forearm in the back" defense that he used to play all the time.

2003 - 04 Timberwolves

- KG ( the superstar and MVP of the league )

- Cassell ( the all-star PG who had a career year )

- Spreewell ( the slasher/shooter who was a legit #3, sometimes #2 option )

- Hassell and Johnson ( the defensive specialists in the starting lineup )

- Hoiberg, Wally, and Hudson ( the 3 point specialists off the bench )

- Olowokandi and Madsen ( the "dirty work" bigs that helped keep KG fresh)

- Trent ( the reserve PF was capable of having a "nice" game 1/3rd of the time )

That team was beautifully constructed with the addition of Cassell, Spreewell, Hassell, Johnson, Hoiberg and Madsen to that team in that year.

Chemistry, ability and balance > ability, low IQ, and no balance

[Diesel]

Chemistry, ability and balance > ability, low IQ, and no balance

Too many times, people look at names and accolades rather than Construction and Chemistry.

We still don't have a low post threat.

We're good because we have an abundance of shooters.

However, in the playoffs, shooting means nothing. Ask Dirk, Jason Terry and JJ Berea.

We exposed Orlando for the same reason and Almost exposed Chicago except a dude with two torn toe ligaments came out and made Horf his b*tch in game 5.