Fredi Gonzalez is the worst manager I've ever seen

[CBAreject]

The last time I dedicated a post to a single Fredi decision, it was when he left Teheran in as a batter so he could bunt, only to pull him out after the half inning was over. Inexplicable.

This time, he did something almost equally inexplicable. With the winning run at 2nd base, he walked Ty Wigginton to get to the reigning NL MVP, Carlos Gonzalez. Why did he do it? Well, because Wigginton is a RHB and Cargo is a LHB and the pitcher, O'Flaherty is a LHP. He believed he was "playing the percentages". Note that Fredi will in one fat breath say "I don't look at stats" but in a critical point in the game, he will use his knowledge of "the percentages" to make decisions. Fredi often makes "by the book decisions" because he is rigid and inflexible and can't think for himself. This is a case where "the book" simply doesn't apply. No manager in his right mind would walk a mediocre player to get to the league MVP. Good thing for the Rockies Fredi isn't in his.

[lethalweapon3]

I knew it was bad when I saw the 9th inning IBB and my first reaction was "Ohhhh, SOMEBODY hasn't been reading Hawksquawk!" LOL

~lw3

[jhay610]

Here's Fredi's defense, which I'm sure we'll all agree is beyond reproach:

“It’s not an easy matchup to bring Gonzalez to the plate, but you feel O’Flaherty will get him out. You don’t lose with the (runner) at first base anyhow. He got him this time.”

Don't accuse Fredi of going by silly numbers -- he's got to feel it, baby, and O'Flaherty felt good. Tip your cap.

:doh:

This should be noted, however:

Wigginton came in batting .306 with a .597 slugging percentage against lefties and was 2-for-3 with a homer off O'Flaherty. Carlos Gonzalez had hit .239 with a .358 slugging percentage against lefties.

Edited July 21, 2011 by jhay610

[coachx]

The last time I dedicated a post to a single Fredi decision, it was when he left Teheran in as a batter so he could bunt, only to pull him out after the half inning was over. Inexplicable.

This time, he did something almost equally inexplicable. With the winning run at 2nd base, he walked Ty Wigginton to get to the reigning NL MVP, Carlos Gonzalez. Why did he do it? Well, because Wigginton is a RHB and Cargo is a LHB and the pitcher, O'Flaherty is a LHP. He believed he was "playing the percentages". Note that Fredi will in one fat breath say "I don't look at stats" but in a critical point in the game, he will use his knowledge of "the percentages" to make decisions. Fredi often makes "by the book decisions" because he is rigid and inflexible and can't think for himself. This is a case where "the book" simply doesn't apply. No manager in his right mind would walk a mediocre player to get to the league MVP. Good thing for the Rockies Fredi isn't in his.

1. Carloz Gonzales was not the NL MVP last year. Votto won it from the Reds. I think CG finished 3rd or 4th in the voting.

2. Carlos is hitting .249 vs. lefties and .309 vs. righties this year. It has been well documented that he has struggled vs. lefties much more this year then in the past.

3. Wigginton is hitting .306 vs. lefties and just .239 vs. righties. Wigginton has been excellent at hitting left handed pitching thoughout his 10 year career.

4. Left handed batters are hitting .186 with 2 walks vs. O'Flaherty while right handed batters are hitting .248 with 13 walks vs. O'Flaherty.

5. The runner at 1B was meaningless in the bottom of any extra inning where the winning run is at 2B.

Most people would say Freedie made the correct move.

To say Freedie is the worst manager you have ever seen b/c he made a call "by the book that played percantages" is just poor judgment on your part in my opinion.

Edited July 21, 2011 by coachx

[CBAreject]

1. Carloz Gonzales was not the NL MVP last year. Votto won it from the Reds. I think CG finished 3rd or 4th in the voting.

2. Carlos is hitting .249 vs. lefties and .309 vs. righties this year. It has been well documented that he has struggled vs. lefties much more this year then in the past.

3. Wigginton is hitting .306 vs. lefties and just .239 vs. righties. Wigginton has been excellent at hitting left handed pitching thoughout his 10 year career.

4. Left handed batters are hitting .186 with 2 walks vs. O'Flaherty while right handed batters are hitting .248 with 13 walks vs. O'Flaherty.

All excellent points (well, at least 2-4). I clearly mis-remembered the MVP voting, but it doesn't really change the point that walking a mediocre player to get to an MVP-caliber player is generally not a good idea. The play can be defended for all the reasons you mentioned, though. I still don't think most managers would prefer facing Cargo to Wigginton with the game on the line.

5. The runner at 1B was meaningless in the bottom of any extra inning where the winning run is at 2B.

Agreed, but this was never in dispute.

Most people would say Freedie made the correct move.

That is very unlikely to be true for a multitude of reasons. I can't be certain, but I'd like to know how you are certain what most people would say.

To say Freedie is the worst manager you have ever seen b/c he made a call "by the book that played percantages" is just poor judgment on your part in my opinion.

That would be poor judgment, but I didn't say that. I said, in so many words, that Fredi is the worst manager I've ever seen, and this particular move is further evidence of it, not sufficient proof of it. I have posted a novella of Fredi's dysfunction as an in-game decision maker on here, most of which is because he ignores statistics. Perhaps you haven't read it, but you should've at least appreciated that I gave another specific example of a blunder. As such, it's clear that I'm not saying Fredi is the worst manager I've seen because he made this one particular call.

What makes this move particularly ironic is that he did, in effect, play the percentages, but despite how well you defend it based on statistics, I promise you Fredi wasn't aware of any of them. In fact, he said as much, claiming he made the move based on feel.

[coachx]

Here's Fredi's defense, which I'm sure we'll all agree is beyond reproach:

Don't accuse Fredi of going by silly numbers -- he's got to feel it, baby, and O'Flaherty felt good. Tip your cap.

This should be noted, however:

Wigginton came in batting .306 with a .597 slugging percentage against lefties and was 2-for-3 with a homer off O'Flaherty. Carlos Gonzalez had hit .239 with a .358 slugging percentage against lefties.

Agreed on the tip your cap...........In my opinion any one who follows baseball could "feel" who the better hitter vs. left handing pitching was.

Every time a manager's decision back fires does not mean they made the wrong decision. Its baseball ! There is alwayse the chance of a hit no matter who the pitcher or hitter is. Its the managers job to put out the best available matchup when in extra innings.

Edited July 21, 2011 by coachx

[AHF]

1. Carloz Gonzales was not the NL MVP last year. Votto won it from the Reds. I think CG finished 3rd or 4th in the voting.

2. Carlos is hitting .249 vs. lefties and .309 vs. righties this year. It has been well documented that he has struggled vs. lefties much more this year then in the past.

3. Wigginton is hitting .306 vs. lefties and just .239 vs. righties. Wigginton has been excellent at hitting left handed pitching thoughout his 10 year career.

4. Left handed batters are hitting .186 with 2 walks vs. O'Flaherty while right handed batters are hitting .248 with 13 walks vs. O'Flaherty.

5. The runner at 1B was meaningless in the bottom of any extra inning where the winning run is at 2B.

Most people would say Freedie made the correct move.

To say Freedie is the worst manager you have ever seen b/c he made a call "by the book that played percantages" is just poor judgment on your part in my opinion.

From this perspective, it was the type of move you would like to see more of from Fredi - one where you are putting yourself in the highest % category for success.

[macdaddy]

These are the same types of complaints people had with Cox. We all knew Fredi was a Bobby-disciple so i think this is what we will get. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[CBAreject]

These are the same types of complaints people had with Cox. We all knew Fredi was a Bobby-disciple so i think this is what we will get. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Yes, there is something quite wrong with that. Bobby cox was a good manager, even a very good manager, but not because he was a good tactitician or in-game decision maker. Bobby ignored statistics, in general, and "went with his gut", frequently to the Braves' peril. What made Bobby Cox exceptional overall was his ability to motivate, encourage, and foster a sense of loyalty in his players. Two ways he did this were one, to stand up for his player to the point of getting himself ejected, and two, to always blame himself and never throw his player under the bus. Fredi has demonstrated that he won't do either of these things. I haven't heard that his players dislike him, but very few managers are despised. As such, I think Fredi is only average (or worse) in the intangible areas that made Bobby Cox great. In the areas that were Cox's biggest flaws (in-game decision-making), Fredi is likely worse. As such, what you're saying here is that because Cox was a good manager on the whole, we should be happy that Fredi shares his faults, as if having those same faults makes Fredi, in some way, a better manager. I end up saying this a lot here, but Bobby was a good manager *in spite of* his in-game decision making, not because of it. That was a deficit he had to compensate for. Fredi has shown no superior skills which might compensate for his poor tactical skills, however.

[macdaddy]

Yes, there is something quite wrong with that. Bobby cox was a good manager, even a very good manager, but not because he was a good tactitician or in-game decision maker. Bobby ignored statistics, in general, and "went with his gut", frequently to the Braves' peril. What made Bobby Cox exceptional overall was his ability to motivate, encourage, and foster a sense of loyalty in his players. Two ways he did this were one, to stand up for his player to the point of getting himself ejected, and two, to always blame himself and never throw his player under the bus. Fredi has demonstrated that he won't do either of these things. I haven't heard that his players dislike him, but very few managers are despised. As such, I think Fredi is only average (or worse) in the intangible areas that made Bobby Cox great. In the areas that were Cox's biggest flaws (in-game decision-making), Fredi is likely worse. As such, what you're saying here is that because Cox was a good manager on the whole, we should be happy that Fredi shares his faults, as if having those same faults makes Fredi, in some way, a better manager. I end up saying this a lot here, but Bobby was a good manager *in spite of* his in-game decision making, not because of it. That was a deficit he had to compensate for. Fredi has shown no superior skills which might compensate for his poor tactical skills, however.

I agree that Cox had questionable in game decisions at times, but what he did consistently is stick with lefty against lefty, righty against righty almost to a fault. All I'm saying is that Fredi manages a lot like Bobby and I think that extends to the clubhouse too. Obviously Fredi doesn't have or deserve the respect Bobby got but he's still young.

I think the skills Fredi has shown has been his ability to put a winning team on the field. He did that in Florida under adverse conditions and he's doing it now.

[jhay610]

Fredi doesn't really stand up for his players with the umps and, though he doesn't necessarily throw them under the bus in the media, he certainly doesn't deflect any criticism and often directs it himself.

Bobby often used sub-optimal strategy but his players would take a bullet for him. I was expecting Fredi to be an upgrade at managing in-game but it turns out he is actually worse than Cox in this regard, and he can't touch Cox in the intangible areas mentioned above.

I think the skills Fredi has shown has been his ability to put a winning team on the field.

Frank Wren is the GM. With this pitching staff any major league manager worth his salt could manage to post a winning record.

[CBAreject]

Frank Wren is the GM. With this pitching staff any major league manager worth his salt could manage to post a winning record.

Obviously, but isn't it baffling that people give Fredi credit for having a talented roster? It seems they just kind of like him and were in his corner from the start, so they look for things to attribute to him. Lousy manager? Well, he has a good team. Makes bad decisions? Well, Cox did, too, and he was a good manager, so he must be good to.

[CBAreject]

From this perspective, it was the type of move you would like to see more of from Fredi - one where you are putting yourself in the highest % category for success.

You know, you are right. I wish Fredi did think about statistics more, and I wish this were evidence that he would be coming around. However, I would lump this move into the somewhat rare category of "statistics don't tell the whole game of baseball". There's an unwritten rule that you simply don't walk a mediocre pinch hitter to get to a team's superstar MVP candidate in the bottom of the 9th. This is one of the rare cases where you should actually disregard the lefty-righty matchup numbers.

Furthermore, it seems Fredi's decision making is completely random and driven by feel. Here's a different forum where fans are discussing the play. One of them brings up a few late-inning situations where he failed to walk the team's superstar in addition to this one where he did walk a pinch hitter to get to the team's superstar. Baffling.

Fredi doesn't understand IBB

[macdaddy]

After a victory against the St. Louis Cardinals in 2010, González had won more games than any other manager in Marlins history. On 23 June 2010, González was fired as Marlins manager.^[3] González led the Marlins to winning seasons in 2008 and 2009, despite working with the lowest payroll in the Major Leagues

Frankly, I don't even have strong feelings about Fredi either way. To say he's the worst and is only winning because of this fantastic roster is a huge overstatement.

[CBAreject]

Frankly, I don't even have strong feelings about Fredi either way. To say he's the worst and is only winning because of this fantastic roster is a huge overstatement.

But you haven't really followed the team closely, and you admitted as much. You're looking at our record and giving Fredi a pass, more or less, based on that. Worse yet, you're assuming that cursory evaluation is superior to mine which is based on watching nearly every game, analyzing play-by-play, reading commentaries of other analysts, and formulating my own analysis of his decision-making. A huge overstatement? Well, it's always possible I could be wrong, but my position is based on careful research. Yours? So far as I can tell, just looking at the standings.

[APE]

Is "Scott Proctor" english for Kenshin Kawakami?

[CBAreject]

Is "Scott Proctor" english for Kenshin Kawakami?

No, no. Let's apply the same defense to Proctor that people apply to Fredi:

Well, the Braves have the 2nd best record in the NL. Scott Proctor must be doing something right.

[jhay610]

How does a guy (Jose Constanza) go from not good enough to be on the roster to your leadoff hitter??

[lethalweapon3]

How does a guy (Jose Constanza) go from not good enough to be on the roster to your leadoff hitter??

Is that the dude from Seinfeld?

Just kidding... congrats on his first hit+RBI!

~lw3

[CBAreject]

How does a guy (Jose Constanza) go from not good enough to be on the roster to your leadoff hitter??

Hahahah. Because it's Frediot #vroooooom In his mind, the leadoff man must be the fastest man, even if he doesn't get on base nearly enough to justify getting the most at-bats.

In Costanza's defense, he isn't very good, but he probably earned the promotion ahead of Schafer who was awful at AAA and continued to be awful at MLB.