Calling the Marvin Protection Force...

[Buzzard]

This thread is sad and I lost respect for several posters in this thread....a nephew is your siblings kid...losing your kid has to be the worst thing in the world and I imagine your sibling losing a kid is very high up there in a list of worst deaths for a person

Spot on man. My sister or brother would have been devastated. I can tell without question I would not have been playing.

[Eddielives]

You just said that Marvin "sort of set himself up to be scrutinized" which by saying he set himself up would imply he had something to do with being scrutinized. What is it that you are implying he has control over? The circumstances of the rumor and/or the death in his family. Those are the circumstances leading into the game. You never literally came out and said "Marvin started the rumors" but by using deduction you are implying he had something to do with those rumors. Maybe you meant to say "he was set up because of the rumors", which then I see what you are saying. But as is, the only interpretation is that Marvin put himself in this scenario (somehow) and the scenario revolves around death/rumors and I seriously doubt you imply he had anything to do with the death.

Blogs are inherently an opinion. There is no journalistic integrity for blogs nor does there have to be. I have my own blog, do you want to start using what I say on my blog as solid information? I can get my blog on some pretty important sites too, ones that even ESPN will link to.

I never claimed you called the rumors absolute truth. I am pointing out your flaw in treating Broussard's unnamed source from a blog as some sort of a solid reason to believe in something. If the denial of the unnamed source's accusation came from another unnamed source or a blog entry from Dear Abbey or just an equivalently bad source, then you have some ground to stand on. But when the accusation is from Marvin himself, it becomes rather clear he trumps everything else. If not, then I will start a blog called "Stuff Eddie Does" where I quote my unnamed sources about things you do throughout the day. You can confirm or deny them all you want, doesn't really matter because there will still be reason to believe what I say is true.

(Hypothetical example is certainly extreme and I understand you are trying to say ESPN reporting should have some sort of power of authority in this scenario. Its clear I don't think so because ESPN is not that great in reporting and it was from a blog.)

That would have been nice, but it does not follow that him not showing up should be fodder for people essentially calling him the worst player on this team and using the game as evidence. It appears that both you and Diesel are doing that as your evidence to affirm your position of Marvin sucking is that he sucked last night. Calling Marvin the worst player on the team is one thing, and in most instances I won't enter an argument. However, this thread is pointing to the first game he gets back as evidence that he is the worst player on the team.

I concede that my wording of "set himself up" was not the best way to put it. I give you that. But you speak of Broussard as a source that has no credibility or that you starting a site about what eddie does as being equivalent. They're not. As far as propagating the allegation that Marvin may have said what he said, some people are going to have more credibility than others. Doesn't make it true, as that would be argument from authority but again, as far as who one might trust for insight like this, Broussard does this for a living and as far as I know, you don't know me from a hole in the ground. So until Broussard retracts his statement or finds it necessary to address this issue further, one can logically say that there very well might be some crediblity to the statement. So Marvin denies it. Fine. Like I said, I'll take Marvin's side on the matter that he actually didn't if you were to put a gun to my head. But it doesn't remove from reality that the accusation was made and Marvin was under the microscope for it, true or not. I think this thread is a bordering on absurdity from many angles now. There is one thing I try to stick to in my opinions here and that is consistency. One thing I will take from this thread, and always do from somewhat heated threads like this, is to see if others practice what they preach in the future. I've seen it many times where someone takes a bit of a view from Mt. Pious and later displays the same attitude they claim to have distaste for.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Eddielives

[AHF]

When Broussard is writing in a blog with unnamed sources, he gets a presumption of correctness until that presumption is rebutted. Marvin rebutted that presumption by directly contracting it. Now the ball is in Broussard's court to step up and validate his original comments. If he stays silent, there is no reason to trust in their accuracy.

[Buzzard]

When Broussard is writing in a blog with unnamed sources, he gets a presumption of correctness until that presumption is rebutted. Marvin rebutted that presumption by directly contracting it. Now the ball is in Broussard's court to step up and validate his original comments. If he stays silent, there is no reason to trust in their accuracy.

Boom, this is a slam dunk!

[Guest]

When Broussard is writing in a blog with unnamed sources, he gets a presumption of correctness until that presumption is rebutted. Marvin rebutted that presumption by directly contracting it. Now the ball is in Broussard's court to step up and validate his original comments. If he stays silent, there is no reason to trust in their accuracy.

Where does Broussard get a presumption of correctness? Because he works with ESPN? The rest of your post is right, I just do not see how Broussard gets any correctness especially given how much he talks out of his *ss on a daily basis.

[Eddielives]

When Broussard is writing in a blog with unnamed sources, he gets a presumption of correctness until that presumption is rebutted. Marvin rebutted that presumption by directly contracting it. Now the ball is in Broussard's court to step up and validate his original comments. If he stays silent, there is no reason to trust in their accuracy.

I think that is completely fair and I am curious myself as to any followup he has. If anyone hears, please pass it on.

[AHF]

Where does Broussard get a presumption of correctness? Because he works with ESPN? The rest of your post is right, I just do not see how Broussard gets any correctness especially given how much he talks out of his *ss on a daily basis.

I would guess that over 90% of what he reports is accurate and he can be sued if he doesn't have a good faith basis for the report. That doesn't guarantee accurate reporting but is enough that I give someone like that the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason to think otherwise. Here, there is a compelling reason to think the report wasn't accurate and there has been nothing from Broussard on this. That isn't always the case, as frequently reporters will come out and stick by their reports even in the face of a denial from the subject of the report. As such, I don't see any reason to give Broussard the benefit of the doubt right now.

[BudBall]

BTW we suck.

[Diesel]

I would guess that over 90% of what he reports is accurate and he can be sued if he doesn't have a good faith basis for the report. That doesn't guarantee accurate reporting but is enough that I give someone like that the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason to think otherwise. Here, there is a compelling reason to think the report wasn't accurate and there has been nothing from Broussard on this. That isn't always the case, as frequently reporters will come out and stick by their reports even in the face of a denial from the subject of the report. As such, I don't see any reason to give Broussard the benefit of the doubt right now.

The respected writer that he is, why would he make up a story? Honestly, why would he make up this story? I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning. And Green was talking about working for "the mothership". He said (in effect) that the time he first started working for ESPN, it was the highest honor that a news person could have. In essence, it meant reaching the highest level of respectability to him. He said he would even have answered asinine questions during the interview if they meant that he would get the job. So once you get to that level, why would you risk it over a Lie? A lie that probably wouldn't increase reader interest by that much? It's a lot different than saying Kobe asked for a trade or Lebron saying he wants out of Miami. Why would he lie?

[Guest Walter]

And from what I typed it sure didn't seem like I was defending Marvin.

It does from here. Dolfan, you have ALWAYS defended MW!

Nobody argues or really cares whether MW is nice or not. He is too passive, doesn't work hard enough, historically was altogether disinterested in the game of basketball, and whatever talent he might have had is meager now. All of that is on him. Not his draft status. Not his contract. But all of the rest is on him. What MW could or you would hope would be able to control, he has miserably failed at.

W

I think the whole calling Marvin a "CANCER" thing is what Dolf is saying. Marvin can be called a lot of things- not aggressive, haven't worked on game, draft bust, darkwing duck and a miriad of other things, but not a cancer by what the term has always meant.

Agreed, he is not a cancer. He seems like a very nice guy.

W

[Guest Walter]

Let's just let him have a longterm break so that he can deal with this and then at some later time, maybe 2 or 3 months from now, he can try to work his way back up through the rotation?

That might interfere with his summer school.

W

[Guest]

I would guess that over 90% of what he reports is accurate and he can be sued if he doesn't have a good faith basis for the report.

I doubt you can be sued while blogging about unnamed sources. Even if there is legal jargon that allows you to technically be sued, from a pragmatic perspective when you claim unnamed sources it becomes an unfalsifiable claim. As far as I know, one does not have to name unnamed or anonymous sources. Burden of proof is on Marvin in this scenario to prove that Broussard was false, but how do you prove that there is no basis of something that inherently does not have a base?

[Admin]

It does from here. Dolfan, you have ALWAYS defended MW!

Nobody argues or really cares whether MW is nice or not. He is too passive, doesn't work hard enough, historically was altogether disinterested in the game of basketball, and whatever talent he might have had is meager now. All of that is on him. Not his draft status. Not his contract. But all of the rest is on him. What MW could or you would hope would be able to control, he has miserably failed at.

W

Agreed, he is not a cancer. He seems like a very nice guy.

W

I'm NOT defending Marvin's game and Marvin was NEVER my choice for the Hawks since long before the draft but I gave him a chance to try and get better and in some ways he has but overall he's been a major disappointment. What I will defend is those of you who trash him for finishing his education or call him a cancer or any of the other awful things I've seen him be called.

As far as whether Marvin works hard enough or not I'm not really sure that you can say that as he has probably done as much with his ability as he's capable of doing. Did Marvin go back to school to work on his degree? Yes and I'm sorry but there's nothing wrong with that. Does Marvin like to play video games? I guess so as I've seen it mentioned before but you know what, I'd bet that at least half of the league plays video games so it's not like he's in the minority here. But you act like Marvin hasn't worked on his game and I'll make my point by saying that he's become one of the leagues best defenders at SF and he's turned into a very good 3pt shooter after being an awful 3pt shooter coming into the league. The bottom line is I believe that the majority of this Marvin hate is due to factors beyond his control, such as:

• Being drafted #2
  
• Getting that big contract after his rookie contract
  
• Only being a role player, although apparently Tom Thibbadeu referred to him as the most underrated player in the league or something like that. The problem here starts with the fact that too many people bought into the hype that Marvin Williams is this ultra talented player who can do so much on the court when the fact is that he's an extremely limited and clumsy player who plays hard, is a great teammate, and is completely selfless when it comes to playing team ball but when all is said and done he's still very limited in what he can actually do and no amount of practice is going to make him any better.
  

But if it makes you feel better to say that I'm defending Marvin then I guess I am. I'm completely content knowing that I've wanted Marvin to be replaced for several years now. But just as I'd do with any Hawk player I'm not going to treat them like garbage no matter how much I want them to be gone and I will "defend" that player against being treated that way unless they've done something to deserve it and in Marvin's case he's done nothing to deserve the way that he is treated by some on here.

[AHF]

I doubt you can be sued while blogging about unnamed sources. Even if there is legal jargon that allows you to technically be sued, from a pragmatic perspective when you claim unnamed sources it becomes an unfalsifiable claim. As far as I know, one does not have to name unnamed or anonymous sources. Burden of proof is on Marvin in this scenario to prove that Broussard was false, but how do you prove that there is no basis of something that inherently does not have a base?

In a slander or libel case, you have to show that you actually have sources. Just saying it isn't good enough. It is a low risk profile for this type of rumor-mongering, though. How does a pro look if he sues a writer for this type of rumor? It would have to be an unusual case for someone to pursue it but that still is there for anyone making things up out of whole cloth.

[EazyRoc]

Marvin Williams sucks. Diesel has been right for years, and prior to the past few years, I was wrong about the guy.

[Guest Walter]

As far as whether Marvin works hard enough or not I'm not really sure that you can say that as he has probably done as much with his ability as he's capable of doing. Did Marvin go back to school to work on his degree? Yes and I'm sorry but there's nothing wrong with that. Does Marvin like to play video games? I guess so...

I can say for certain that if MW were personality-wise and work ethic-wise more like Kobe or a Bruce Bowen than he is Marvin Williams he would have maxed out his potential. Instead, he is thuroughly on the other end of the spectrum, disinterested in basketball, non-competitive, and all but lazy. You cannot tell me MW wasn't AT WORST a frequent, regular 17/6 guy as a starter if he'd worked at it. Instead he spent his offseasons in summer school, having assistant coaches track him down to read him the riot act about his not working hard enough to improve his game.

Oh, and about school...Marvin william never went BACK to school! He never LEFT school! You can't go back to what you never left. He choose the NBA profession and instead of at least using the first 4-5 off-seasons committed to his profession and improving his game, MW simply prefered playing video games and standing over bunsen burners. Basketball, his chosen profession, was an after-thought. He NEVER gave up college to go back to college. He never had to re-enroll. He was an active student throughout. He just cashed in and went straight back to summer school. This ain't no Hallmark movie with Marvin Williams finally returning for his degree 30 years later. This is a horror flick with Marvin Williams bloodying up the franchise that invested in him when he wouldn't invest in himself or the sport.

Players who give a d@mn about the game or their place in it don't do that. They have the rest of their lives to educate themselves. Hell, if Kobe were a teamate of MW he would have (correctly I might add) written him off right there. Six years later, you still defend his decision?!? You defend MW's work ethic and desire? Dolfan, you do it by suggesting MW simply doesn't have the talent, but, several years ago he was almost 14/6 while sleep-walking through the off-season! There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that MW, while not some perennial all-star 25/10 player as many thought when drafted, had at least very good starter material in him with a little water and miracle-grow effort.

Imagine if MW had given a d@mn, worked his *ss off, and become a 17/6 guy with some consistency. We would have made at least one ECF IMO. He "left" college early, mandating he spend extra time and effort developing his game, and he's been too busy with school and video games ever since.

W

[Admin]

Imagine if MW had given a d@mn, worked his *ss off, and become a 17/6 guy with some consistency. We would have made at least one ECF IMO. He "left" college early, mandating he spend extra time and effort developing his game, and he's been too busy with school and video games ever since.

W

You're neglecting the FACT that while at UNC he continually worked out with current and former UNC players. I just don't buy that a guy who went from a backup PF in college to a starting SF in the NBA (yeah I know he was given his starting spot) and has become a very good defender and 3pt shooter hasn't worked his ass off to get there. And I also have NO PROBLEM with him finishing his degree either and I'm impressed that he'd go back or "continue" as you said college after getting paid as many just use college to get to the NBA. It seems silly that someone would criticize an athlete for making education a priority, but I guess that's where society is these days.

As far as Marvin being a 17/6 player, who's to say that he couldn't easily be that? He was nearly that in what his 3rd year? I'm not sure what's happened since then but I'm still confident that Marvin could do that. I honestly don't think that he could be anything more than that as he is very limited in his coordination and there's nothing he could have done that would have changed that. Marvin is still young so we'll see what happens, whether that's here or someplace else, and we can come back and finish this discussion once his career is over.

[Guest Walter]

You're neglecting the FACT that while at UNC he continually worked out with current and former UNC players. I just don't buy that a guy who went from a backup PF in college to a starting SF in the NBA (yeah I know he was given his starting spot) and has become a very good defender and 3pt shooter hasn't worked his *ss off to get there.

Kobe would have a problem with it. Our coaches had expressed and I bet have a problem with it.

I played pick-up ball with Lavar Postell and Dontonio Springfield, both former NBAers. While it didn't make me worse, my game didn't get much better playing pick-up games. I never got much of a left hand by playing pick up games. My ball-handling didn't get much better playing pick-up games. Pick-up games have a place, but when you come out of college early you have SO MUCH to work on you can't work on them in pick-up games. When you leave early you are signing up for extra effort and work to reach your potential. Has MW ever spent an off-season with a former great, at a training facility ENTIRELY focused on becoming the best he can be? He has done core work-outs (laughable) and pick-up games. He's shot 3 pters. some. He plays 1-2 hours of pick up ball and lifts a few weight during the week. He spends 75% of his time in school. That's his "regimen". That's the regimen of a guy who chose the NBA as his profession, did so early necessitating more work. That's the regimen of a guy who truthfully never left college and never watched or much cared about basketball. That's the regimen of a guy who didn't respect or care about his basketball gifts to the extent needed to remotely near his potential.

Kobe BTW does 6 hours of work-outs 6 days a week in the off-season as of 3 years ago! He's already developed himself and he STILL out-works MW by probably 3-4 hours a day.

And I also have NO PROBLEM with him finishing his degree either and I'm impressed that he'd go back or "continue" as you said college after getting paid as many just use college to get to the NBA. It seems silly that someone would criticize an athlete for making education a priority, but I guess that's where society is these days.

If I am building a model citizen I would agree with you, but I'm building a model franchise with model basketball players. There is a lifetime for education. There is a short window for development in basketball. Can you imagine telling your employer who pays you multi-millions of dollars a year you won't be able to work much for 3 months or get better at your job because you've got more important things like summer school to go to?

As far as Marvin being a 17/6 player, who's to say that he couldn't easily be that?

At this point in his career with his poor work ethic and inverted priorities, he won't ever reach it. Period.

...

If you want to draft a nice guy, MW seemed like a good fit. If you wanted a player that would reach his potential, MW, while not self-limited like a f*** up like say a Crittenton, is about as unlikely, unwanting, and unwilling to do so as anyone.

W

[Joker]

Marvin doesn't spend 75% of his time at school but the rest is very accurate.

[Admin]

Kobe would have a problem with it. Our coaches had expressed and I bet have a problem with it.

I played pick-up ball with Lavar Postell and Dontonio Springfield, both former NBAers. While it didn't make me worse, my game didn't get much better playing pick-up games. I never got much of a left hand by playing pick up games. My ball-handling didn't get much better playing pick-up games. Pick-up games have a place, but when you come out of college early you have SO MUCH to work on you can't work on them in pick-up games. When you leave early you are signing up for extra effort and work to reach your potential. Has MW ever spent an off-season with a former great, at a training facility ENTIRELY focused on becoming the best he can be? He has done core work-outs (laughable) and pick-up games. He's shot 3 pters. some. He plays 1-2 hours of pick up ball and lifts a few weight during the week. He spends 75% of his time in school. That's his "regimen". That's the regimen of a guy who chose the NBA as his profession, did so early necessitating more work. That's the regimen of a guy who truthfully never left college and never watched or much cared about basketball. That's the regimen of a guy who didn't respect or care about his basketball gifts to the extent needed to remotely near his potential.

Kobe BTW does 6 hours of work-outs 6 days a week in the off-season as of 3 years ago! He's already developed himself and he STILL out-works MW by probably 3-4 hours a day.

If I am building a model citizen I would agree with you, but I'm building a model franchise with model basketball players. There is a lifetime for education. There is a short window for development in basketball. Can you imagine telling your employer who pays you multi-millions of dollars a year you won't be able to work much for 3 months or get better at your job because you've got more important things like summer school to go to?

At this point in his career with his poor work ethic and inverted priorities, he won't ever reach it. Period.

...

If you want to draft a nice guy, MW seemed like a good fit. If you wanted a player that would reach his potential, MW, while not self-limited like a f*** up like say a Crittenton, is about as unlikely, unwanting, and unwilling to do so as anyone.

W

Walter, I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from but they seem like a bit of a stretch to me. The bottom line is that Marvin could be doing more to develop, but I'm not sure that it would make that much of a difference.

And I understand where you're coming from as far as work ethic goes but you're comparing Marvin to a legendary top 5 possibly of all-time player in Kobe Bryant who has been a workout fiend his entire life. I'd like to see a comparison of how much work Marvin puts in vs the other players on the Hawks roster.

As to working out with legendary players, I know that Josh worked out with Dream years ago... and how's that working out for him? For all that I'm sure Hakeem taught him about scoring in the low-post Josh is still not interested in playing down there and that's with him having the ability to just about score at will in the post.