Deron says JJ is big reason he changed his mind and went back to the Nets

[red2play]

If Joe was a better passer and made everyone around him better, I'd agree but now the NJ Net's are just NY knicks without Tyson Chandler or Amare. Joe Johnson is the same as Carmelo Anthony, they are one on one shooters not Lebron or Wade or Durant or Kobe (although Kobe looked like a ball stopper last season - I mean who doesn't pass the ball to 7 footers?).

[DJlaysitup]

Deron and joe are the best backcourt in the nba...maybe second best if Nash can play well in la

Well I don't know about the whole NBA cap...but they will be the best guard combo in NY since Earl the Pearl and Walt Clyde Frazier. ...but I do agree we did the right thing moving JJ's contract - too big for us. Edited July 7, 2012 by PetroBlast

[AHF]

Well I don't know about the whole NBA cap...but they will be the best guard combo in NY since Earl the Pearl and Walt Clyde Frazier.

I would easily take the following combos, among others: Derek Harper / Michael Jordan Magic Johnson / Byron Scott (or Norm Nixon for that matter) Sam Cassell / Ray Allen John Stockton / Jeff Hornacek Tony Parker / Manu Ginobili

[IheartVolt]

I would easily take the following combos, among others: Derek Harper / Michael Jordan Magic Johnson / Byron Scott (or Norm Nixon for that matter) Sam Cassell / Ray Allen John Stockton / Jeff Hornacek Tony Parker / Manu Ginobili

He said in New York not the entire NBA lol

[niremetal]

Where is everyone getting that Joe is a premier 2 or 3? It is like we are all just remembering the good times from 2005-2008 when he was in his prime. Some see, to think going to a team that was worse than the Hawks will somehow turn this 31 year old into his 27 year old self again.

I was a huge JJ fan, BUT, a reminder:

If you were a huge JJ fan, you'd know that he made his first All-Star Game in 2007. To say 2005-2008 was his peak is ridiculous, since that only encompasses 2 of his 6 All-Star appearances and doesn't touch his All-NBA appearance.

And where do people get that he is still a premiere wing? Six straight ASGs and counting, brah.

And for all the Josh partisans talking about Joe's inefficiency and Josh's efficiency in terms of scoring - Joe killed Josh eFG% (.521 to .470) and annihilated him TS% (.557 to .499) last year. In his 8 year career, Josh's TS% has had a grand total of 1 season (2010-2011) where his TS% has been higher than Joe's. And if you take out JJ's elbow-injury-ridden first 6 weeks of the year, I bet he had a higher TS% than Josh that year too.

Haters gonna hate, but outside Hawks fan forums, no one thinks that 0 time All-Star Josh is better than 6 time (and counting) All-Star JJ.

I would easily take the following combos, among others:

Derek Harper / Michael Jordan

Magic Johnson / Byron Scott (or Norm Nixon for that matter)

Sam Cassell / Ray Allen

John Stockton / Jeff Hornacek

Tony Parker / Manu Ginobili

How'd you do on the reading comprehension portion of the LSATs back in the day, AHF?

Also, when did Derek Harper play with Michael Jordan?

Anyway, put another way - how often do you see two "reigning" All-Star guards on the same team? I think that is the point people are getting at. It will be very tough to come up with defensive schemes that contain both Deron and JJ. You can't just stick your best perimeter defender on one and put a scrub on the other without risking a beatdown. Even among the guys you mentioned, coaches didn't worry about about Jeff Hornacek (at least in his Utah days) or Norm Nixon going off on them. Most teams have, at most, one good perimeter defender, and they put that guy on the opposing team's best offensive guard. Can't really do that when both guys are top 5 players at their respective positions.

Edited July 7, 2012 by niremetal

[Ruckus]

I also do not buy in to win shares. It fails to look at the overall situation, or as someone else pointed out, the "tape". There is no way to put a numerical value on a player's worth.

[Ruckus]

Also, I think the comparison of Josh and Joe is a moot point. Completely different players, skillsets, and contracts.

[Buzzard]

Here is the biggest downfall on win shares.

Win shares are intended to represent player value (what they were responsible for) rather than player ability (what the player's true skill level is).

On our team Josh's value will obviously be much higher than if he were playing next to Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum. Josh is more valuable to us than he is to the Lakers, Heat, OKC etc..... Win/Shares shows us the obvious, big deal .... Period end of story.

Link

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Win_shares

Edited July 7, 2012 by Buzzard

[DJlaysitup]

Here is the biggest downfall on win shares. On our team Josh's value will obviously be much higher than if he were playing next to Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum. Josh is more valuable to us than he is to the Lakers, Heat, OKC etc..... Win/Shares shows us the obvious, big deal .... Period end of story. Link http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Win_shares

Agreed Buzz...I mean if you put a couple decent players out there with a bunch of semi-scrubs in the NBA and win like 25 games, somebody is going to come out looking good in the stats. Edited July 7, 2012 by PetroBlast

[tonegully]

I have no idea why you guys want to compare Josh and Joe. Its apples to oranges. If Joe had a reasonable contract he would still be here.Its not because Joe isnt good or Josh is better. He made to much freaking money which hinders the team now and in the future.

[Bamalawdawg]

Niremetal, surely you agree that he is on a downward path in the NBA. He didn't just have a fluke 1 year speed bump. He is not going back to the form that got him a max deal. His minutes, games played, ppg, shots taken per game, rebounds per game, even fouls per game have all declined. He is just not an all around star player like he was maybe all the way through The 9/10 season. He is not as involved in the game, maybe by a factor of 10-20% over the past 2 seasons. I don't care if he makes 8 more all-star games on name recognition, it doesn't mean he is one of the 25-30 most effective players in the NBA. And his salary goes UP the next 4 seasons. The Nets are somehow selling fans on this being the second coming of Lebron/Wade. This is more like Orlando getting Vince Carter in 2009 when he was 32 and barking about how Allstar Rashard Lewis, Allstar Jameer Nelson, and Allstar Dwight Howard would win it all. Carter never averaged 20 ppg after 32. Rashard Lewis fell off after 10 years in the NBA too.

[DatWerkk]

KB21, you gonna have to drop the hate. Deron is probably the best PG in the NBA and Joe is a top 3 SG.

Top 3?? Off the top of my head and in no particular order, other than ALL BEING BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON: 1) Kobe 2) D-Wade 3) Manu 4) Harden 5) Monta 6) Eric Gordon 7) JET 8) Ray Allen 9) (healthy) Brandon Roy JJ is a nice player, but how can you NOT be resentful as a fan when he's making more money than every single elite player in the NBA but doesn't have close to the same production?

[tonegully]

JJ is a nice player, but how can you NOT be resentful as a fan when he's making more money than every single elite player in the NBA but doesn't have close to the same production?

If you gonna be resentful, be resentful towards the ownership. Not JJ. I wouldve taken the money too. I dont blame him.

[DatWerkk]

If you gonna be resentful, be resentful towards the ownership. Not JJ. I wouldve taken the money too. I dont blame him.

Agreed. I have no hostility towards JJ. I'm happy for him but also very happy to be rid of him and that contract of his. None of that diminishes my point that he is currently not worth what he is being paid.

[jezmund]

Top 3?? Off the top of my head and in no particular order, other than ALL BEING BETTER THAN JOE JOHNSON: 1) Kobe 2) D-Wade 3) Manu 4) Harden 5) Monta 6) Eric Gordon 7) JET 8) Ray Allen 9) (healthy) Brandon Roy JJ is a nice player, but how can you NOT be resentful as a fan when he's making more money than every single elite player in the NBA but doesn't have close to the same production?

I am very happy we were able to move JJ, but this list is ridiculous. Contract aside, I would never trade Joe for Monta or Terry. I might not even move him for Gordon.

[niremetal]

I am very happy we were able to move JJ, but this list is ridiculous. Contract aside, I would never trade Joe for Monta or Terry. I might not even move him for Gordon.

Or Ray Allen. Or Manu. And healthy Brandon Roy? That's like saying a thin Fat Albert. Edited July 7, 2012 by niremetal

[niremetal]

Niremetal, surely you agree that he is on a downward path in the NBA. He didn't just have a fluke 1 year speed bump. He is not going back to the form that got him a max deal. His minutes, games played, ppg, shots taken per game, rebounds per game, even fouls per game have all declined. He is just not an all around star player like he was maybe all the way through The 9/10 season. He is not as involved in the game, maybe by a factor of 10-20% over the past 2 seasons. I don't care if he makes 8 more all-star games on name recognition, it doesn't mean he is one of the 25-30 most effective players in the NBA. And his salary goes UP the next 4 seasons. The Nets are somehow selling fans on this being the second coming of Lebron/Wade. This is more like Orlando getting Vince Carter in 2009 when he was 32 and barking about how Allstar Rashard Lewis, Allstar Jameer Nelson, and Allstar Dwight Howard would win it all. Carter never averaged 20 ppg after 32. Rashard Lewis fell off after 10 years in the NBA too.

I was just pointing out that you clearly have not been a huge JJ fan if you think his peak was 2005-2008. He's maintained a higher level of play since 2008 than he did in 2005-2006. Unless all you care about is box score stats. The "I was a huge JJ fan" was just a pathetic effort to give yourself undeserved credibility before you bashed him. I accept that JJ's not as good as he was 3 years ago. No 31 year old is. But you still can count on one hand the number of SGs in the league who are better than him. Just ask the NBA coaches who named him to this year's All-Star team. Or Deron, who was heading out the door until he saw JJ walking through it.

I am very happy we were able to move JJ, but this list is ridiculous. Contract aside, I would never trade Joe for Monta or Terry. I might not even move him for Gordon.

Or Ray Allen. Or Manu. And healthy Brandon Roy? That's like saying a thin Fat Albert. Edited July 7, 2012 by niremetal

[MaceCase]

I have no idea why you guys want to compare Josh and Joe. Its apples to oranges. If Joe had a reasonable contract he would still be here. Its not because Joe isnt good or Josh is better. He made to much freaking money which hinders the team now and in the future.

It's an issue because Josh is on the verge of a dramatic overpay very similar to Joe if the intention is to keep him at all costs. The problem with Joe is that he could neither recruit nor the team afford another star to make his contract worthwhile in Atlanta. The same will be true if Josh can't get Dwight to sign longterm.

[DatWerkk]

I'll leave out Kobe, Wade, and James Harden since nobody seems to be arguing against me on those points. But for Manu, Eric Gordon, Monta, JET, Ray Allen, and the mythical healthy Brandon Roy (translation: Brandon Roy 2009-10 or earlier), let's chat. I pulled up baskball-reference.com and looked at FG%, 3P%, ORtg, DRtg, and Pts/36 min for each of these players for the 2011-12 season.Monta is the worst on the list, so I'll go ahead and take back what I said about him.Jason Terry is probably the next worst on this list, but he's not far from JJ. JJ is a little more productive on offense and scores about 2 more points per game, but they are almost identical shooting percentage wise and defense-wise. Think about that: Joe Johnson is comparable on defense to Jason Terry's old behind.Ray Allen is better than JJ across the board (including defense!) except JJ scores about 4 more points-per-36, so I'd even be willing to say JJ is a little better than a 36-year-old Ray Allen.If you look at Brandon Roy in 2009-10, he's clearly better than JJ. JJ has a slight edge on 3P% but otherwise it's no comparison. But that was an old Brandon Roy, so you can discount that if you want. Fine.Whoever it was that said he wouldn't trade JJ for Manu is a crazy person. Manu had the best FG% of anyone on the list (including Kobe, D-Wade, and Harden) and second-best 3P% behind only Ray Allen's career-high 45%. He's the most efficient, most productive SG on offense in the entire league. I wouldn't trade Kobe or D-Wade for him, but the list probably stops there.So that leaves us with one more. JJ is almost exactly the same player as.... Eric Gordon. JJ hits more 3s, Gordon scores more overall. Eric Gordon is a good, young player. He's about to get a max contract from Phoenix. But he's also 23 years old. That max contract isn't going to leave his team paying him $25mil a year while he starts collecting social security.So, I stand by my original points:1) JJ is a pretty good player.2) JJ is not a top 3 SG in the league.3) JJ is insanely overpaid.That's all I'm saying.

[thecampster]

1986-1987 - Michael Jordan, John Paxson combined stats.ppg - 48.4apg - 10.3rpg - 6.9spg - 3.7team record - 40-42. 5th NBA central. first round 3-0 exit.4 more years, a Pippen and a Grant and a Cartwright later they won it all.2 guards never a championship makes.2 guard offense, you need elite rebounding as there will be more shots missed.