Why can't Smoove learn from Horford?

[Admin]

True, but in Drew's Motion Offense^TM, everybody is responsible for moving the ball. So he's not excused from chucking. Just because it comes through him, that doesn't excuse him from launching it; and it goes without saying that Drew should be flogged if he's encouraging this. Moreover, those shots early in the clock and the dribble fadeaways when he takes control of the ball...after he's been cut off and played to shoot it? Yeah...those are all J-Smoove.

Regardless of how you look at it, he's shooting 32%, on a bad shot, that constitutes 40% of his total shots. There is no justification for it. Not even "good josh." The offset of our leading shooter/scorer taking these shots is that our offense as a whole is not as efficient as it should be.

Why would we do anything to slow us down? We have better scorers on the team. Getting the ball to them and letting them shoot should be the priority.

I'm not excusing his bad shots, just saying that he does a lot of good from out there on the perimeter with the ball in his hands and while we don't like our PF shooting long 2's or 3's it's not like he's a 20% shooter from out there. Those shots shouldn't be a 1st or 2nd option for our offense but if they're late in the clock or he's wide open then I don't have a problem with them when he's knocking down 35% of his attempts. I don't like the long 2's at all and don't want him taking anything in that area, nor do I want him trying to shoot off the dribble or even dribble penetrate. Either crank up the wide open 3 or pass it, which is the option that I prefer.

[buckeye242424]

Top 25 in player efficiency? No. You are not talking about Josh Smith.

Hard to believe, I know, but its true. Dolf beat me to the punch to post the link... But Smoove actually is very efficient on the court. We're so focused on his jump shots (when they don't go in) we forget he's an underrated passer, and we take his defense and rebounding for granted because he's "supposed" to do that. If he's so selfish, why does he give the effort on defense and defensive rebounding? We complained when Craws was here, and a lot about Teague this year defensively. They can't guard a chair, lack of effort. I don't read a lot of Smoove sucks on defense posts. Two parts of the court, and he impacts both of them.

[buckeye242424]

I'm not excusing his bad shots, just saying that he does a lot of good from out there on the perimeter with the ball in his hands and while we don't like our PF shooting long 2's or 3's it's not like he's a 20% shooter from out there. Those shots shouldn't be a 1st or 2nd option for our offense but if they're late in the clock or he's wide open then I don't have a problem with them when he's knocking down 35% of his attempts. I don't like the long 2's at all and don't want him taking anything in that area, nor do I want him trying to shoot off the dribble or even dribble penetrate. Either crank up the wide open 3 or pass it, which is the option that I

Nodding my head.....

[drzachary]

Actually Josh is EXACTLY 25th in Player Efficiency. Al Horford on the other hand is 8th.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp

Oh, you're using the NBA Efficiency metric, largely comparable to PER, both of which are useless and reward inefficiency.

So yeah, nowhere near the top 25 in efficiency, but 25th in Player Efficiency.

Quick explanation: Player Efficiency and PER both *increase* if a player simply takes more shots at a 33% clip, or 25% from 3. In short: it doesn't mean anything.

Edited February 26, 2013 by drzachary

[Wretch]

I'm not excusing his bad shots, just saying that he does a lot of good from out there on the perimeter with the ball in his hands and while we don't like our PF shooting long 2's or 3's it's not like he's a 20% shooter from out there. Those shots shouldn't be a 1st or 2nd option for our offense but if they're late in the clock or he's wide open then I don't have a problem with them when he's knocking down 35% of his attempts. I don't like the long 2's at all and don't want him taking anything in that area, nor do I want him trying to shoot off the dribble or even dribble penetrate. Either crank up the wide open 3 or pass it, which is the option that I prefer.

Well...my problem with Josh is a combination of things. Some people like to blame everything on him and that's not fair, because we have a number of issues. BUT, if your goal is to win, then you have to do what works BEST.

Josh is an average scorer, but if you feed him the ball enough, yeah he's going to get you 15-20 ppg. That's a lot of players in the NBA. But if you have a better option on the floor, then you go to there instead. I mean, we're not talking about anything new or complicated here - they're called "roles" for a reason.

On any given possession, I can give you a dozen MUCH better options than having the ball end up in Smoove's hands or having Smoove take the ball and go 1 on 1 with it. I know you're impartial Dol, so I know you can see it too. So if you have a better option, why are you not going to it? I mean...GP was a great post up PG. But should that constitute a huge portion of his game like these jumpers do for Josh?

Herein lies a bigger problem - we are playing Josh Smith like he is a cornerstone of our offense and he thinks he is that kind of player. The evidence is in the number of shots he takes total. If this were Chuck Daly's team, or Pat Riley's team, or Doc Rivers' team, or Greg Pop's team, or K.C. Jones' team, or Phil Jackson's team...would that number look the same? Then why are we doing it?

So now, we're leaning on him and he's shooting these long range shots when there are better options on the floor. And, I'm sorry, but dude at times gets the ball and does what he wants. I haven't seen it much this year, but in the past he would try to do too much and end up dribbling it off his foot if not taking the long ridiculous shot.

The next thing is, why is Josh shooting...when we have a guy who is FAR more efficient at midrange? I know this may seem like a repeat of the above point, but I think it needs to be pointed out specifically...because Al Horford can actually shoot the midrange shot. He's actually GOOD at it! If we are being forced into jumpers, I'd much rather have Al shooting them (again...or Teague, or Harris, or Korver, or Lou).

Now, I am ok with Josh shooting a few 3 pointers. I was actually one of the few people defending him early on. But honestly, his best offensive contributions are in the way of offensive rebounds and passing - which is is EXTREMLY under-appreciated and underrated for. I noticed that from day one, even with all the goofy turnovers. Very few can jump with him and Josh is an outstanding passer. We should be using THESE parts of his game and that midrange shit should just disappear completely.

Something else to consider. That shot sort only takes into account his 16' jumpshots. Some of Josh's jumpers and ill-advised shots are coming from just outside the paint 7'-15'. If you factor in his jumpshots closer to the basket, but just outside the paint...you add 30-40 more shots on the season, but the *nimbers don't get any better. it is very clear what Josh's role SHOULD be on this team. It is equally clear (to me at least) that he does not desire to be that player.

(*-'Nique nod.)

Edited February 26, 2013 by Wretch

[ViperXX79]

"defensive rebounding"

If he actually gave effort in his rebounding then he'd lead the league in it. Hasn't boxed out in years and is a super lazy rebounder. He gets so many boards from just standing still letting other guys box out while he goes for loose balls.

Edited February 26, 2013 by ViperXX79

[Wretch]

"defensive rebounding"

If he actually gave effort in his rebounding then he'd lead the league in it. Hasn't boxed out in years and is a super lazy rebounder. He gets so many boards from just standing still letting other guys box out while he goes for loose balls.

If he would get down there and work the glass...and get back to the way he was when he basically SWALLOWED everything that went up in the paint (He was like, top 3 in the league in blocked shots...one year tied for 1st wasn't he for a while?). If he would focus on that and let go of the ball, he could easily average around 15ppg on a much better %...and he would be phenomenal.

Morover, if he would move aside for better scorers...he would make the team better.

[benhillboy]

I'm past blaming Josh for his jumpers. He takes the Puffy approach of "we won't stop." I blame those who swing the ball to him all agressively like he's a marksman with ample time on the clock, namely Teague, who can't even get the ball back when he needs it the most in transition. Wretch's chart looks awful, but what's worse is the percentage of those misses outside 15 feet that are contested, which is close to none. I don't see how the opposition allowing him to shoot doesn't get through to him. KK has to run half a mile to get his shot off in the halfcourt set with sometimes two guys draped over him. Josh's jumpers are as contested as a shootaround. To Josh's biggest supporters, we don't hate him at all. He's a fu&kin Baby LeBron all things considered. We just beg and plead for him to clean up this one aspect of his game so he can easily go to the next level, his team included. It shouldn't have taken this long to realize.

[buckeye242424]

"defensive rebounding" If he actually gave effort in his rebounding then he'd lead the league in it. Hasn't boxed out in years and is a super lazy rebounder. He gets so many boards from just standing still letting other guys box out while he goes for loose balls.

That's just a crazy statement. Proposing that someone could lead the NBA in rebounding if he tried is why the expectations of Smoove around is soooo overblown! He gets 8 a game. He's not Rodman, a one trick pony... He scores, blocks, passes, and gets a steal now and then. I swear, this board thinks he's Superman, and he's not. Accept him for who he is, and accept we're better with him. His stats this year are unlike a lot in NBA HISTORY....

[AHF]

Here is Josh's shooting (2pt, 3pt & FT) efficiency since I think that is the kind of efficiency people are really discussing on this thread:

Out of the players who have scored 50 or more points this season, Josh is 269th out of 384 in the league in true shooting % which specifically measures the efficiency of a player's scoring. That is the bottom 1/3 of the league.

ttp://bkref.com/tiny/1a8Vk

Among players 6'8'' or higher, Josh is 133rd out of 184. Again, this is in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZPfov

[Q45T]

Why are Smoove and learn in the same sentence?

[AHF]

His stats this year are unlike a lot in NBA HISTORY....

He is the only player in NBA history to:

* Average at least 2 blocks per game;

* Average at least 4.15 assists per game;

* Average at least 17 points per game; and

* Shoot .497 TS% or worse.

You can call them unique if you define the criteria tightly enough.

Edited February 26, 2013 by AHF

[buckeye242424]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1536428-nba-stars-playing-their-way-into-and-out-of-max-deals/page/4 I think his stats speak for themselves, in the context on the history of the NBA. I'm not arguing about shooting. I've said... I've accepted that one part of his game that is frustrating, yet way too overblown! Dude, does so much more than take stupid shots....

[buckeye242424]

Here is Josh's shooting (2pt, 3pt & FT) efficiency since I think that is the kind of efficiency people are really discussing on this thread: Out of the players who have scored 50 or more points this season, Josh is 269th out of 384 in the league in true shooting % which specifically measures the efficiency of a player's scoring. That is the bottom 1/3 of the league. ttp://bkref.com/tiny/1a8Vk Among players 6'8'' or higher, Josh is 133rd out of 184. Again, this is in the bottom 1/3 of the league. http://bkref.com/tiny/ZPfov

I'm not arguing shooting percentage, or people who are a certain height, or scoring. I'm looking at the big picture of the whole game. He's a very efficient basketball player and he's important to the success of the team. I think 75% of the Squawk' takes him for granted.

[buckeye242424]

While I'm on my soapbox, then I'll shut up, I swear guys. There's a good chance Smoove will be in another uni next year, and that's weird to me. Just like all of you, Ive seen 90% of his NBA career, or more. He gets shit on way too much from the people that are the biggest fans of this team, us. He's a polarizing player, but gets a lot more crap than any other Hawk ever, and I'm old.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

That's just a crazy statement. Proposing that someone could lead the NBA in rebounding if he tried is why the expectations of Smoove around is soooo overblown! He gets 8 a game. He's not Rodman, a one trick pony... He scores, blocks, passes, and gets a steal now and then. I swear, this board thinks he's Superman, and he's not. Accept him for who he is, and accept we're better with him. His stats this year are unlike a lot in NBA HISTORY....

Everything you said is correct but the BOLD. As Steve Smith said the other day on the radio, Josh's stats sheet is the ONLY in NBA history with his averages.

But I will let you all go back to your endless debate of who is better/what Josh can be/what Josh is not... lol

I done with that crap. I'm just enjoying the team as a whole. Josh, Al, Jeff, Kyle, John, Ivan, Zaza... even my man Toliver. GO HAWKS!

[Admin]

Oh, you're using the NBA Efficiency metric, largely comparable to PER, both of which are useless and reward inefficiency. So yeah, nowhere near the top 25 in efficiency, but 25th in Player Efficiency. Quick explanation: Player Efficiency and PER both *increase* if a player simply takes more shots at a 33% clip, or 25% from 3. In short: it doesn't mean anything.

When someone says a player is efficient what else would I look at? And it weren't me who said he was, I just backed up the claim. Which efficiency would you prefer to use?

[Admin]

I'm with buckeye here, we are talking about overall efficiency, not shooting efficiency. What dummy would argue that Josh is an efficient shooter?Btw wretch I will give a proper response to your nice reply from earlier but I got next here at the gym and its time to rain some triples!

[AHF]

I'm not arguing shooting percentage, or people who are a certain height, or scoring. I'm looking at the big picture of the whole game. He's a very efficient basketball player and he's important to the success of the team. I think 75% of the Squawk' takes him for granted.

Josh is among the least efficient scorers in the game.

He is among the best defenders. It is a tale of two ends of the floor.

His overall game (WS/48, etc.) is not close to max level but is right at that cusp of potential All-Star. Some people here see him as a negative value overall, so I agree he is underrated by certain posters and fans.

I don't know anyone who thinks Player Efficiency is a good measure anymore, though. There is a reason Player Efficiency isn't used by the analytics experts or even reported on sites like NBA Reference. It is the equivalent of using PPG or batting average as a reference point in discussing player value. It makes PER look really good.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1536428-nba-stars-playing-their-way-into-and-out-of-max-deals/page/4 I think his stats speak for themselves, in the context on the history of the NBA. I'm not arguing about shooting. I've said... I've accepted that one part of his game that is frustrating, yet way too overblown! Dude, does so much more than take stupid shots....

He is a stat stuffer for sure but the problem with this is that the stats are framed in a way to include him and exclude others. If you made the criteria an average of 9 rebounds per game, for example, then Josh falls off the map and his season isn't included. It is a false sense of rarity because all the criteria are framed right where he makes the cutoff. You can do this exercise for a lot of players.

Larry Sander is having the only season in NBA history with:

A block % of 9 or greater, defensive rebounding % of 25.4 or greater, an ORTG of 109 or greater, and usage and turnover rates less than 16% and 13%, respectively.

Do Josh's stats suggest he is having one of the greatest seasons in NBA history? No. Do Sanders'? No.

So to what end does this type of deliberately exclusive inquiry get you?

[AHF]

Actually Josh is EXACTLY 25th in Player Efficiency. Al Horford on the other hand is 8th.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp

It is a bad number. Flip it to efficiency per minute and Josh plummets to 69th. No one uses this statistic anymore.