Simmons: The Worst Contracts in the NBA(Or why DF is the man)

[Diesel]

This is the biggest disconnect amongst Ferry's hypercritics, they are still judging the Joe trade based on the presumption that he was the team's best player when he unequivocally wasn't. Josh led the team last year and Al is leading the team this year. It's funny that the "haters" are said to be wishing ill on Brooklyn when the truth is that the "lovers" have yet to find a way to explain why this team has managed to still win without its "best player".

You say he was traded for nothing but the standings say the Hawks didn't lose much, and for that Ferry deserves praise. The fact that he was able to establish the opportunity to improve from there is an addition to the move that he already accomplished.

In one breath you say that Horf was hurt all season. IN the other you say that the standings say that we didn't lose much. THINK about it. Joe and Josh led last years team to a place where it looked like Horf was unneeded. Zaza had even raised his game. How good do you think Last years team would have been if Horf had not have gotten injured? The answer is much better than this years team.

Moreover, Josh took more shots, but he was not leader of the team. Josh wanted to be an allstar, Joe was an allstar. Even when Joe gave up his allstar spot due to Injury, Josh couldn't be an allstar. Moreover, without Joe, Josh didn't even sniff allstar consideration (this year). Without Joe, it's easy to see how dysfunctional Josh's play really is. And you say that Josh was the leader last year??

When you start comparing apples to apples let me know.

[Diesel]

What do they say?

What are they saying?

Larry Drew too?

n the last 10 games, with Joe Johnson's sore left heel nagging him, Williams has averaged 23.1 points and 6.9 assists per game. He's shot 47.2 percent from the field and 50.7 percent from three-point range, numbers that left an impression on Hawks coach Larry Drew.

"As the season progresses, guys like him -- leaders of teams -- I think they're going to be more and more aggressive," Drew said.

"They are going to sort of impose their will as we go down the later third of the season. The good players, they elevate their games during this time. It's a time where players are tired, players are sore, players are mentally fatigued. But there are players who impose their will on those types of situations, and certainly as of lately, just watching him play, it looks like that's his mindset.

"When you have to defend a guy like that, you really have to zero in on him right off the bat, try to discourage him early, to make it tough for him early."

[Guest]

Read your first sentence again.

Ferry has only traded our best player for a bunch of ending contracts. So that we can have capspace. OK. Since he cannot be judged by what he hasn't done, let's judge him on just that. He traded our best player for Nothing. Capspace represents what he hasn't done yet.

That's my point. The work is incomplete and you're giving him A+. I give him an I until I see what comes of this capspace.

And what does it say that we traded our 'best' player and the team is still currently a playoff team with the "NOTHINGS' - lesser talent and expiring contracts. We were treading water then without any hope for rescue, we are still treading water but the life boat is on the way.

[nathan2331]

Truth is that this thread had nothing to do with Smitty.. just some tangent somebody brought up. Proclaiming DF as making great moves right now is just like Claiming Babcock as having done a great thing trading Nique for Manning. Sure you traded your "declining" superstar. Sure you got out of his salary. But If you looked at that trade the day after it was made, plenty of people were probably excited about moving from mediocrity and getting younger and having more capspace. BUT.... What was the longterm ramifications? That's where I am now. We don't have a Danny Manning like prospect to show for the Joe traded EXCEPT.. just like Manning, those players we did get are on the last year of their deals. It's too early to Judge Ferry.

Those two trades can't be compared like that. If I'm not mistaken the Hawks were the top of the east when they made the Nique trade. Dumb move. Contenders don't take risks like that. When Ferry made that trade, we already hit our ceiling. Getting out of that contact gives us the opportunity to become something greater. Besides I think we are doing very well without Lou Williams. We've been hurt a lot this season.

[AHF]

You guys should have known that Diesel would not be satisfied with any series of transactions that resulted in Marvin Williams playing for another team.

Nuthuggers.....

[TheNorthCydeRises]

In one breath you say that Horf was hurt all season. IN the other you say that the standings say that we didn't lose much. THINK about it. Joe and Josh led last years team to a place where it looked like Horf was unneeded. Zaza had even raised his game. How good do you think Last years team would have been if Horf had not have gotten injured? The answer is much better than this years team.

Moreover, Josh took more shots, but he was not leader of the team. Josh wanted to be an allstar, Joe was an allstar. Even when Joe gave up his allstar spot due to Injury, Josh couldn't be an allstar. Moreover, without Joe, Josh didn't even sniff allstar consideration (this year). Without Joe, it's easy to see how dysfunctional Josh's play really is. And you say that Josh was the leader last year??

When you start comparing apples to apples let me know.

The funny thing to me is this.

Every fan on this board, whether they liked or disliked JJ, KNOWS that opposing coaches focused on stopping or slowing him down before any other player on this team. They didn't fear Smith and his offense. They all focused on stopping #2. That's why the dude would constantly get doubled at times, like he was Kobe or something. The goal was to get the ball out of his hands, and see if people like Josh, Teague, Marvin, Willie Green and T-Mac ( when healthy ) could beat them.

This year, we all asked ourselves who would be the "closer" at the end of games, if it came down to that. And the answer to that question wasn't Josh. It wasn't even Al Horford. It was Lou Williams.

The major reason why Smith isn't considered to be an All-Star by the coaches, is because of his limited ability and decision making on the offensive end of the court. If he sacrificed some of his offense, his defense would stand out even more, which would elevate him in the eyes of coaches. But the offense is just so bad at times, that coaches can't overlook that.

Eventually, I think Horford CAN be that closer to some extent. I see Horford really using that midrange jumper in the same way Chris Webber used his while in Sacramento. When the Kings were real good, Webber would kill people with that elbow jumper.

Smith has almost no shot to be the closer, because of his issues at the FT line and lack of ability to hit the midrange shot. Unless he develops a very good post move that he can score off of, he just can't be trusted with the ball at the end of games.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And what does it say that we traded our 'best' player and the team is still currently a playoff team with the "NOTHINGS' - lesser talent and expiring contracts. We were treading water then without any hope for rescue, we are still treading water but the life boat is on the way.

A few teams are still currently playoff teams without their "best player".

Chicago is still a playoff team without Derrick Rose.

Indiana is one without Danny Granger ( although Paul George may be the best player now )

Boston is even better without Rondo ( and people believed that he was their best player before he got hurt )

Ferry is to be commended on who he added to the roster last offseason ( Lou Williams, Devin Harris, Kyle Korver ). And speaking of Korver, he was the best thing that came from the JJ trade. Without that trade exception we got from the JJ trade, we don't have Korver on this team.

The "nothings" acquired from the JJ trade were just that . . . nothings.

- Jordan Farmar is out the league

- Jordan Williams is out the league

- Anthony Morrow was consistently hurt, and was traded for Dahntay Jones ( who can only help us defensively )

- Deshawn Stevenson has been better than expected, but he can't go back to back games

- And what little value Johan Petro possesses, has only recently been tapped into

None of these players will ( or shouldn't ) be back next year. Korver may not even be back next year. So any judgement on what Ferry does with the 21 million JJ would've made next year, will be determined by the moves he makes starting next year. That's why guys like myself and Diesel can't be all "rah-rah" for what Ferry did by trading JJ for nothing.

With no Chris Paul or Dwight Howard on the horizon for the Hawks, none of you who claim to have loved what Ferry did, can even come to even a little consensus on what he should do next.

Most of you don't like Al Jefferson or Monta Ellis

You didn't want to flip Josh for Pau Gasol

Who do you guys want? Or does the only thing that matters is that we got JJ's contract off the books, regardless of who we add to this team? What is the "grand plan" now that it's pretty obvious that Paul and Howard isn't coming here ( as if they were ever coming here )?

[AHF]

Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees. What we "got" for JJ was expiring contracts which relieved us of his deal. This created pace to sign/acquire Kyle Korver and Lou Williams which has led to a very similar season this year as compared to JJ led teams in the past (such as the higher winning % this season compared to the 2010-11 team).

Josh was better than JJ last season but was not and is clearly not as much of an offensive threat as JJ. He brings much more the table than scoring but he isn't a scorer or a closer (should be a secondary or tertiary option on offense even with our current personnel).

The positive result of no more iso JJ is the Hawks leading the league (at or near the top) in several offensive categories (assists, 3's, efg%, etc.) created not by Josh's superior offense (this is a bad season even for him) but by the superior ball movement that comes with a JJ-less team. JJ's career .495 ts% in the playoffs is like an average scoring efficiency for Josh this year (JJ's effectiveness obviously tanked in the post-season) so it wasn't great shakes by any means but he clearly was the guy who drew the most attention. We will have to wait and see how this offense works out in the post-season compared to the JJ/iso offense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees. What we "got" for JJ was expiring contracts which relieved us of his deal. This created pace to sign/acquire Kyle Korver and Lou Williams which has led to a very similar season this year as compared to JJ led teams in the past (such as the higher winning % this season compared to the 2010-11 team).

Josh was better than JJ last season but was not and is clearly not as much of an offensive threat as JJ. He brings much more the table than scoring but he isn't a scorer or a closer (should be a secondary or tertiary option on offense even with our current personnel).

The positive result of no more iso JJ is the Hawks leading the league (at or near the top) in several offensive categories (assists, 3's, efg%, etc.) created not by Josh's superior offense (this is a bad season even for him) but by the superior ball movement that comes with a JJ-less team. JJ's career .495 ts% in the playoffs is like an average scoring efficiency for Josh this year (JJ's effectiveness obviously tanked in the post-season) so it wasn't great shakes by any means but he clearly was the guy who drew the most attention. We will have to wait and see how this offense works out in the post-season compared to the JJ/iso offense.

AHF . . you know we could've added Lou Williams to this squad, with JJ still here, and still not be over the Luxury Tax. You know that, right?

You know that our offensive rating is slightly lower than last year's team ( without Horford, who usually helps the offensive rating tremendously with his high FG% shooting ).

You know that we won at a higher winning percentage last year, than this year. Even when we had Lou, we were only a 22 - 17 team and on pace for 46 wins. Now, we're 34 - 28 and on pace for 45 wins. Last year's team, without Horford, won 40 games in a 66 game season, which translates to a 50 win season.

We're scoring almost 1 point more per game, but giving up almost 3 points more per game. 1 point more a game, despite a pace increase of about 2 possessions.

And that increased pace and new players hasn't translated into anything at the box office. In fact, attendance is worse.

Unless Teague and Horford take complete control of this offense come playoff time, we're not a better team than last year.

So basically, all Ferry has done so far, is flipped Marvin for Harris, and JJ for Korver. And both Harris and Korver could be gone next year.

( shrugs )

Edited March 12, 2013 by northcyde

[AHF]

Yep. Thrilled with that. Giving up a 20+M player and it costs us a number of wins that can be counted on one hand which can all be accounted for simply by Josh having a better year last season (he is on pace to finish with about 3 fewer win shares)? Give me that with the flexibility to advance the franchise.

JJ is putting a up a 14.1 PER this season while scoring at a .523 TS% clip (his worst season in 9 years. Let's not pretend like adding JJ would be some godsend - he is scoring this season at an efficiency just above Josh Smith's career average. Nothing to write home about. He is missed more defensively than offensively.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Yep. Thrilled with that. Giving up a 20+M player and it costs us a number of wins that can be counted on one hand which can all be accounted for simply by Josh having a better year last season (he is on pace to finish with about 3 fewer win shares)? Give me that with the flexibility to advance the franchise.

JJ is putting a up a 14.1 PER this season while scoring at a .523 TS% clip (his worst season in 9 years. Let's not pretend like adding JJ would be some godsend - he is scoring this season at an efficiency just above Josh Smith's career average. Nothing to write home about. He is missed more defensively than offensively.

His role is also reduced in Brooklyn . . and that TS% and PER has been steadily dropping since he hurt his foot.

On the Hawks, it could very well be that Horford is still the best player on this team with JJ here. And it could very well that JJ would've been more than willing to see his role reduced some, so that guys like Teague and Harris could push the pace and make life easier for him offensively.

What we wouldn't have, is this extreme deficiency at the wing positions, when it comes to defense and offensive creation. We don't have a single SG or SF who can create his offense. And the guys we play at SG that can create their offense, are all PGs, which means that they become a liability on defense. And even Korver as of late has been exposed on defense.

This team is only slightly better offensively ( not by offensive rating though ), but much worse defensively. And we don't have a closer.

The issue isn't really about JJ being here or not being here though. It's about what kind of flight path Ferry has for this team, now that Paul and Howard are virtually out of the mix. Who can he bring here in the 2013 free agency period, that is going to have this team going in the upward direction, instead of slowly descending downward?

Is Brandon Jennings or Al Jefferson the future leader and closer for the Hawks? Or will Ferry commit to the Horford - Smith duo?

Ferry's accolades are premature, until we see exactly what he can do with "cap space".

[AHF]

His role is also reduced in Brooklyn . . and that TS% and PER has been steadily dropping since he hurt his foot.

A reduced role should result in a higher shooting %, but that reduced role is resulting in a massive 15.5 FGA (2011-12) to 14.8 FGA/GM (2012-13). He is just missing more of them. His decline is precisely the best reason for getting rid of $100M worth of contractual obligations to a guy who is regressing towards "solid SG" territory.

You can't pay $20M for a guy who may or may not outperform Kyle Korver.

[AHF]

Ferry's accolades are premature, until we see exactly what he can do with "cap space".

I think he is due accolades for getting rid of a couple of anchors but that doesn't get where you need to go. So to the extent anyone is arguing "Mission Accomplished" then I agree with this 100%. Ferry has a lot of work left to accomplish ahead of him.

[MaceCase]

JJ is putting a up a 14.1 PER this season while scoring at a .523 TS% clip (his worst season in 9 years. Let's not pretend like adding JJ would be some godsend - he is scoring this season at an efficiency just above Josh Smith's career average. Nothing to write home about. He is missed more defensively than offensively.

But, but, but, his drop in efficiency 2nd worse to a season he had elbow surgery, his drop in rebounding% well below an already pathetic level for a player 6'8" 240, his drop in assist% while maintaining the same TOV%, and his drop in defensive rating in addition to defensive win shares (he's played 167 more minutes this season yet still amassed 1 less win share) can all be explained by his drop in usage

For some odd reason Joe's current production has escaped the arguments of those refuting him being listed as the worst contract in the league. What gives? He's gotten everything that fans complained he never had in Atlanta: All Star playmaking PG, low post scoring All Star Center, coordinated defensive wingmate, owner willing to spend yet he hasn't held up his end of the bargain......

.......but Ferry should be criticized for dumping him for "nothing" when he could have just as easily held onto a player in visible decline over the next 3 years and traded his 25 million expiring for longer contracts making 18 million annually.

[Diesel]

And what does it say that we traded our 'best' player and the team is still currently a playoff team with the "NOTHINGS' - lesser talent and expiring contracts. We were treading water then without any hope for rescue, we are still treading water but the life boat is on the way.

So... because Lebron is the best player on Miami, does that mean that Wade, Bosh, and the rest are "nothings"?

[Guest]

So... because Lebron is the best player on Miami, does that mean that Wade, Bosh, and the rest are "nothings"?

I am only responding in kind to your assertion that we traded our best player a bunch on nothings - not my words, yours. And what exactly does the Championship Miami HEAT have to do with Joe and his worse contract status.

Edited March 12, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But, but, but, his drop in efficiency 2nd worse to a season he had elbow surgery, his drop in rebounding% well below an already pathetic level for a player 6'8" 240, his drop in assist% while maintaining the same TOV%, and his drop in defensive rating in addition to defensive win shares (he's played 167 more minutes this season yet still amassed 1 less win share) can all be explained by his drop in usage

For some odd reason Joe's current production has escaped the arguments of those refuting him being listed as the worst contract in the league. What gives? He's gotten everything that fans complained he never had in Atlanta: All Star playmaking PG, low post scoring All Star Center, coordinated defensive wingmate, owner willing to spend yet he hasn't held up his end of the bargain......

.......but Ferry should be criticized for dumping him for "nothing" when he could have just as easily held onto a player in visible decline over the next 3 years and traded his 25 million expiring for longer contracts making 18 million annually.

No, but he could've held onto him for at least one more year to see what a squad minus Marvin but plus Devin and Lou could do . . or traded him for a player or players who can actually play and contribute.

Had he played hardball with Brooklyn, and traded him for an expiring ( Farmar or Morrow ), plus the long contract of Gerald Wallace and the youngster MarShon Brooks, that would've given the Hawks tangible assets to work with going into this year, without killing our cap space. And if he makes a deal like that, he still could've added Williams and possibly Korver to the squad.

PG - Teague

G - Harris

F - Wallace

PF - Smith

C - Horford

G - Williams

G/F - Korver

C - Zaza

G - Brooks

F - Ivan

That team gives the Hawks a much more flexible squad to throw out on the court, while also retaining our "financial flexibility". We could either put an offensive or defensive squad out on the court. Wallace + Smith would've been a great defensive tandem for this team, while Korver is there if we needed his offense. And Brooks is there as a young guy we can develop.

In the summer of 2013, Horford, Wallace, Williams, and Jenkins would've been the only ones under contract, totaling a little over 30 million. That means we'd still have TONS of cap space to work with to add that "superstar", or to re-sign our own guys, or to add at least one decent player.

Even if you kept JJ, you still could've added Williams, and made the Harris for Marvin trade . . and been under the Luxury Tax.

G - Teague

G - Harris

F - Johnson

PF - Smith

C - Horford

I'd definitely roll with that starting group for at least one more year.

But I already know how this is going to play out, in the event that Ferry actually makes things worse around here. Guys like you will spin it as "well, we did the right thing, regardless of what is happening now".

I hope that Ferry can bring in some guys . . legitimate guys . . and have a keen eye in the draft, to help get this franchise to the next level.

But like Diesel said . . . when you trade for nothing, you normally end up with nothing. Heck, even when Memphis traded Pau Gasol in what was perceived to be back then a lopsided trade in the Lakers favor, they obtained the rights to Marc Gasol and got 2 draft picks ( Grevis Vazquez and Devin Ebanks ).

Even if Ferry couldn't get all of that for JJ, he didn't even try to get anything tangible . . but "cap space". He took the first deal that they could dump him on.

And if we lose Smith for nothing, people will be saying the same thing.

The jury is out on Mr. Ferry. If people want to build him a statue, they better build it out of play-doh.

[Guest]

We can all speculate about what might have been had we kept Joe:

1. Teague would still be behind the eight ball in terms his development - From LD's own mouth, Teague's job would be to bring the ball pass halfcourt and give it to Joe.

2. Al would not be getting as many shots per game

3. Josh would still be Josh - good and bad.

4. How would we have gotten Korver?

5. Lou might not have wanted to come here with Joe still here (less playing time)

6. We might not have had a taker for Joe's contract next year or we would still have gotten the 'nothings', we would have been more desperate to unload his contract.

7. Everyone called the Pau trade lopsided at the time and only TIME told us it wasn't - why is Ferry not getting TIME to build the team he envisions.

8. Grievis was the 28th pick and doing well (which Memphis did not keep by the way), Ebanks? 2nd round pick by LA who is averaging 10 mpg and 3 ppg. We have the Houston pick (hopefully) which should be higher than 28 and we all hope Ferry makes the right pick, only TIME will tell.

The difference between these two trades is that everyone was saying LA ripped off Memphis, nobody was saying that Brooklyn ripped us off. It was Damn, they were able to unload that contract?

We all know the jury is still out on Ferry - no one has said his work is complete. It has just started.

[MaceCase]

But I already know how this is going to play out, in the event that Ferry actually makes things worse around here. Guys like you will spin it as "well, we did the right thing, regardless of what is happening now".

Awe shucks, we're the spin masters? Could of fooled me with these hypothetical tomes told to you by your alternate dimension reading crystal ball.

Let's look at facts: the Hawks have continued to win at nearly the same rate while Joe Johnson is putting up his worst season in multiple categories. You already attempted the lame apologist argument that it's his usage to blame but why oh why would reducing a guy's offensive load have a negative effect on their efficiency, passing accuracy, rebounding and defensive effort? Thess things should increase in the wake of not having to burn so much energy to get a shot off and no longer being the emphasis of opposing coaches gameplans.

Why even make the argument of "we could of seen him here" when we can perfectly see him there with the exact roster and franchise you wanted him to have here and......he's sucking worse than with any supposedly cheaply filled and poorly drafted team he had Atlanta.

Why continue this fantasy that his contract has any positive value and that the Hawks were somehow impatient in dealing it? Do you not realize that given his current play with that perfect roster that he has lost even more value? If the Hawks had him now they would probably have to be throwing their own firsts and rookies along with other incentives just to get the same package from Brooklyn.

These are facts that would lead a logical person to conclude that Danny Ferry was fortuitous in moving both of the worst contracts in the league when he did and should thus be praised on that move alone rather than having to have any caveat attached to him about what he does from here to justify those moves. Look at a cot damn boxscore of Marvin and Joe for all you need to know but oh well, we're just bitter spin masters.

[Diesel]

I am only responding in kind to your assertion that we traded our best player a bunch on nothings - not my words, yours. And what exactly does the Championship Miami HEAT have to do with Joe and his worse contract status.

Obviously, you misread. I said, we traded JJ and got nothnig back. That is different than what you said.

Ending contracts (many of which are Journeymen) is nothing. That doesn't mean that Teague, Horf, and Smoove are nothing.