Simmons: The Worst Contracts in the NBA(Or why DF is the man)

[AHF]

JJ & Wallace as declining players on expiring deals

2016:

negative value players: 35 million

2017 salary:

0

for a series of disappointing players whose teams view them as negative value: (a) 2 $4M players with contracts 2-3 years long and (b) $11M for 3 years, $4M for 2 years and $5M for one year :

2016

negative value players: $28M

2017

negative value players: $24M

2018

negative value players: $15M

I agree with the premise that they won't make the finals and will likely be in this position. That trade you suggest is believable to me, although it doesn't do much to recommend the Nets' course. It looks like a recipe for undercutting whatever fan base the team has.

You have it exactly right. You just can't see far enough to see how it will ( and has worked in the past ).

Of course the team will dump a longer contract on you. But it will be for less money, and may be easier to trade in the new future for an even lesser contract.

July 2015 . . . the Nets trade Wallace ( and his 10 mill salary ) to a team that has given up on 2 players making 4 mill apiece. They both may have contracts extending 2 or 3 years.

Nets savings on trade: 2 million

- August 2015 . . . the Nets strike a deal with a team to trade Joe Johnson in a 3 player trade. One player makes 11 million and has 3 yrs left on his deal. Another player makes 4 million and has 2 years left on his deal. The third player makes 5 million, and expires at the end of 2016. The team trading the 3 players sees the opportunity to shed 16 million in payroll by making this move at the end of 2016.

Nets savings on this trade: 5 million

Edited March 11, 2013 by AHF

[MaceCase]

Instead of inventing a scenario to fit your delusion how about you produce a historical precedent instead. This thread is just filled with your wishy washy interpretation of things rather than the actual events and reasoning that do/did occur. Honestly, you created a scenario where a team in need of a rebuild.....is flipping their expirings for longer deals. I'm sure this makes sense.....somewhere.

[AHF]

Honestly, you created a scenario where a team in need of a rebuild.....is flipping their expirings for longer deals. I'm sure this makes sense.....somewhere.

I think it is a very believable scenario but it looks like a pretty horrific scenario to me.

[MaceCase]

I think it is a very believable scenario but it looks like a pretty horrific scenario to me.

Bah! You snuck your post in during my reply. I believe that there are simply treadmill enthusiasts in this thread because I have no idea how there could be such fervent arguments and scenarios created against breaking free from mediocrity (if even in the hopes of a better future) in favor of a sustained (although factually, declining) product.

[AHF]

Bah! You snuck your post in during my reply. I believe that there are simply treadmill enthusiasts in this thread because I have no idea how there could be such fervent arguments and scenarios created against breaking free from mediocrity (if even in the hopes of a better future) in favor of a sustained (although factually, declining) product.

[HawkItus]

That point in every argument where one person realizes they sound like a lunatic and so they go "all in" and become the crazy.

[Kimsey]

I can't see why Joe had so many "to the death of me" supporters around here where you would sacrifice an even brighter future to accommodate an ominous ending situation.

I appreciated Joe highly but not nearly as much as Steve Smith. I was more than ready to move on from him when the time was right(not the JR Rider trade), but at a point where Smitty was markedly declining

Edited March 11, 2013 by Kimsey

[Guest]

You have it exactly right. You just can't see far enough to see how it will ( and has worked in the past ).

Of course the team will dump a longer contract on you. But it will be for less money, and may be easier to trade in the new future for an even lesser contract.

Scenario:

- It's January 2015, and the Nets are looking at paying a ridiculous tax bill at the end of the 2016 season. Their total salary will be 79 - 80 million going into the 2015 - 16 season ( after they sign a slew of vet minimum guys to fill out the roster ).

With the Nets failing to get to the NBA Finals, and the team in decline, they decide to deconstruct the team. And the target of that deconstruction are their 2 expiring contacts in 2016:

- Gerald Wallace: 10.1 mill

- Joe Johnson: 24.9 mill

- Total: 35 million

The goal: Flip those 2 contracts and turn them into 25 million worth of contracts going into the 2015 - 16 season. For the Nets, hopefully the Luxury Tax will be slightly higher in 3 years, at around 72 - 73 million.

- July 2015 . . . the Nets trade Wallace ( and his 10 mill salary ) to a team that has given up on a player with 2 years and 15 million ( 7.5 mill a year ) left on his contract. The team sees a way acquire Wallace, and shed that 10 million at the end of 2016, so they make the deal. This scenario could also involve 2 players making 4 mill apiece. They both may have contracts extending 2 or 3 years.

Nets savings on trade: 2 - 2.5 million

- August 2015 . . . the Nets strike a deal with a team to trade Joe Johnson in a 3 player trade. One player makes 11 million and has 3 yrs left on his deal. Another player makes 4 million and has 2 years left on his deal. The third player makes 5 million, and expires at the end of 2016. The team trading the 3 players sees the opportunity to shed 16 million in payroll by making this move at the end of 2016.

Nets savings on this trade: 5 million

- February 2016: The Nets make even more moves to shed payroll before the trade deadline. They trade a 4 million dollar player acquired in the Wallace deal for a guy making 2.5 mill for the next 3 years.

Nets savings on this trade: 1.5 million

Total trade savings: 8 million

Nets accomplish their goal, and get under the Tax.

Easy to do my friend. And it's done all the time in this league.

So what exactly have the Nets accomplished by trading for Joe if they haven't won the championship, let alone get to the NBa finals? I can't wait for August 2015!!!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJ & Wallace as declining players on expiring deals

2016:

negative value players: 35 million

2017 salary:

0

for a series of disappointing players whose teams view them as negative value: (a) 2 $4M players with contracts 2-3 years long and (b) $11M for 3 years, $4M for 2 years and $5M for one year :

2016

negative value players: $28M

2017

negative value players: $24M

2018

negative value players: $15M

I agree with the premise that they won't make the finals and will likely be in this position. That trade you suggest is believable to me, although it doesn't do much to recommend the Nets' course. It looks like a recipe for undercutting whatever fan base the team has.

It would depend on what type of players they got back in the deal.

There are always guys of value around the league, who may be good role players, but not starters. I think a guy like Gerald Wallace will still have value in the league in 2 years, because he can defend the basketball.

So say you're a playoff team like the Chicago Bulls, and it's the summer of 2015.

You refused to pay a near MAX contract to Luou Deng in the summer of 2014, and lost him to the Sixers. The Bulls were still a high level playoff team with Rose in 2014 - 15, but they needed a good wing defender to guard Lebron and Wade, who have now won 3 titles in a row.

Carlos Boozer's contract expires in the summer of 2015, but he's still showing some value to the team as a decent frontline scorer. And because the Bulls need that scoring, they may consider him more valuable than say Taj Gibson, who is locked up for another 2 years at 17.45 million dollars. Gibson still is a quality backup PF at age 30, but his value is less than Boozer's.

So they sign Boozer to a 3 year - 21 million dollar deal, with team and player options ( at age 33 ). And they call the Nets about trading for Gerald Wallace, who just turned 33 and is still an above average wing defender.

Chicago knows that Brooklyn needs to shed salary somewhere, anywhere. So they inquire about Wallace. The Bulls, by not re-signing Deng in 2014, avoided paying the tax that season, so they make a decision to possibly be a taxpaying team if need be.

Brooklyn says . . "OK Chicago . . We'll give you Gerald Wallace and our 2013 1st round pick ( projected to be Doug McDermott of Creighton @ #20 ) for Taj Gibson and your 2017 2nd round pick".

Chicago says . . . DEAL . . and the Nets trade away a little over 11 million in salary and take back Taj's 8.5 million slated for the 2015 - 16 season, saving 2.5 million going into 2015 - 16. And he'll have one more season at almost 9 million that the Nets would have to deal with.

If and when that deal is made, the question will be if Gerald can serve his purpose as a high level, albeit overpaid wing defender. And can Taj play PF well enough to possibly warrant him even getting in the starting lineup?

Deals like this are done all the time in the NBA. And this new CBA isn't going to stop a good playoff team from adding a piece that they think can get them over the hump, even if they're paying a little too much for it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So what exactly have the Nets accomplished by trading for Joe if they haven't won the championship, let alone get to the NBa finals? I can't wait for August 2015!!!!

They would've accomplished the same thing we will have possibly accomplished in the coming years. They gave a dead or mediocre franchise . . HOPE. Hope that they could possibly play at the highest level, by acquiring 3 guys who are top 10 all-around players at their respective positions. If the next 3 playoff seasons for the Nets see them doing this: 2013 - EC Finals . . ( lose in 5 games )2014 - EC Finals . . ( lose in 6 games )2015 - EC Semis . . ( lose in 7 games ) And they simply lost to a better Miami team in each of those instances, I can't call what the Nets did . . a failure. They would be seen as trying to assemble the best team possible, but just couldn't get it done vs one of the best teams in NBA history ( and the Heat are possibly trending toward being just that ).Hell. Hawks fans would jump for joy if that were our 3 year playoff track starting this season. I mean, until New York or Indy or Chicago ( with Rose ) prove that they are beyond a shadow of a doubt the 2nd best team in the conference, I think there is little difference between positions 2 - 7. The only difference will be the matchups each team presented to one another. Edited March 11, 2013 by northcyde

[DJlaysitup]

I just hope we aren't reading an article a few years from now saying something like:

"Not long ago NBA experts thought Mikhail Prokhorov was carzy for paying as much as he did for players who could not take the Nets to a championship...but now many are wondering if he wasn't "crazy like a fox". Said Senior NBA expert Charles Barkely: "His willingness to show that he could and would spend the money is probably the main reason that Brooklyn is now the hottest spot for top-notch free agents to sign". When contacted about his free spending ways Mikhail said he only wants to bring championships to the fans in Brooklyn."

"Prokhorov, a Russian billionaire, seems to have the wherewithal to do just that"

In other NBA news, the Atlanta Hawks announced today that their second round pick will be playing in Europe for the forseeable future.

Edited March 12, 2013 by DJlaysitup

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I can't see why Joe had so many "to the death of me" supporters around here where you would sacrifice an even brighter future to accommodate an ominous ending situation.

I appreciated Joe highly but not nearly as much as Steve Smith. I was more than ready to move on from him when the time was right(not the JR Rider trade), but at a point where Smitty was markedly declining

Quick !!!

Name 3 memorable Steve Smith playoff games with him in a Hawks uniform, that led to Hawks victories.

I can easily do that with JJ.

[Eddielives]

Quick !!!

Name 3 memorable Steve Smith playoff games with him in a Hawks uniform, that led to Hawks victories.

I can easily do that with JJ.

So you want people to compare what's much more recent and fresh on Hawks fans minds to playoff games that happened over a decade ago? I just did a little research and looked at STeve Smith's playoff numbers vs. Joe's. I'll take Steve's numbers any day of the week over Joe's. And Steve wasn't being paid, even in relative terms, what Joe was making. Add in Steve's passion, leadership and attitude and it's a no brainer. I'll always appreciate Steve Smith more than Joe.

[Diesel]

Ferry cannot be judged by what he hasn't done, we can only judge him by what he has been able to do thus far. There was no hope with Joe, none, nada....2nd round at best. Everybody and their momma, cousin and crazy uncle knew that.

We now have chance to build something the right way - will it be succesful? I don't know, I hope that it is - only time will tell and that is better than just accepting our 2nd round at best status.

Read your first sentence again.

Ferry has only traded our best player for a bunch of ending contracts. So that we can have capspace. OK. Since he cannot be judged by what he hasn't done, let's judge him on just that. He traded our best player for Nothing. Capspace represents what he hasn't done yet.

That's my point. The work is incomplete and you're giving him A+. I give him an I until I see what comes of this capspace.

[Diesel]

So Diesel... You wanted us to keep Joe?I have to agree with the mindset of it's better to try and fail than never to try at all. If Dwight and CP3 don't come to Atlanta I am not blaming Ferry. That was a long shot to begin with.Sure, I don't think he deserves the royal treatment for offloading Joe's contract exclusively. But, at least he had the balls to make a move he saw as beneficial to the organization's future. And many people just so happen to agree with his thought process.We were 4th seed last season, correct? Well we were 4th seed a couple of days ago, also. Even with our crazy bad play recently. Do I think we are better this season? No. But we aren't that far off either.

I used to subscribe to that try and fail crap. BUt then we traded away Mookie, Smitty, for JR and JJ and JTerry. Then we came back and we traded away Theo, Deke, Shareef, for Chillz, Shelden, Marvin, and Smoove.

What I learned is that you can't build a championship team if you're always looking at your wallet.

Boston. Took youth that was going nowhere and traded it for the Big three ... who most people felt were over the hill. But they won a championship and has been in the championship picture while they were together.

Capspace is not taking a chance. Taking a chance is giving up Horf and Joe for Dwight last year.

Taking a chance is giving up Smoove for Melo a few years ago. Or Smoove for Deron last year.

Point is that we don't know how to take the right chances because we don't know how to put together a winner.

We celebrate trading away value for nothing.

We celebrated trading Harrington for nothing.

We celebrated losing Crawford for nothing.

We celebrated trading Bibby for nothing.

We celebrated trading Joe for Nothing.

If you're always getting nothing, then you are building nothing.

[Diesel]

So you want people to compare what's much more recent and fresh on Hawks fans minds to playoff games that happened over a decade ago? I just did a little research and looked at STeve Smith's playoff numbers vs. Joe's. I'll take Steve's numbers any day of the week over Joe's. And Steve wasn't being paid, even in relative terms, what Joe was making. Add in Steve's passion, leadership and attitude and it's a no brainer. I'll always appreciate Steve Smith more than Joe.

Truth is that this thread had nothing to do with Smitty.. just some tangent somebody brought up.

Proclaiming DF as making great moves right now is just like Claiming Babcock as having done a great thing trading Nique for Manning.

Sure you traded your "declining" superstar. Sure you got out of his salary. But If you looked at that trade the day after it was made, plenty of people were probably excited about moving from mediocrity and getting younger and having more capspace.

BUT....

What was the longterm ramifications?

That's where I am now. We don't have a Danny Manning like prospect to show for the Joe traded EXCEPT.. just like Manning, those players we did get are on the last year of their deals.

It's too early to Judge Ferry.

[thecampster]

I think Brook Lopez being healthy for a full season has just as much if not more to do with it.

Diesel, great points.

And a lot of people around here are going to be highly disappointed come November, if our prized possession with our cap space is a re-signed Josh Smith. Dwight is not coming. Chris Paul is not coming. So who do people think we're going to spend money on? More important, who do people think we can spend "market value" on, without overpaying them?

The fallacy of Simmons' article is that when all of those guys were given contracts, team(s) saw value in all of those players. Some of those guys turned out to be busts, but a lot of them saw their contracts become overvalued when better players were brought to the team in future years. This took playing time and minutes from that particular player, thus, making their contracts horrific.

From eddielives: I am still nothing short of completely and utterly amazed that New Jersey took Joe off our hands. I mean it really baffles the mind that Danny Ferry was able to convince them to take him.

Eddie, how about this for perspective:

The Nets have currently played 61 games, which is the equivalent of 49 games in last year's 66 game season. Do you know what the Nets record was after 49 games?

15 - 34 . . . ( .306 winning percentage )

After 61 games this season, the Nets are 35 - 26 . . . ( .574 winning percentage )

They're currently on pace to win 47 games, which would equal their best regular season record in 9 years. And like it or not, Joe Johnson is a major reason why they're having success right now. They have an owner who is not scared at all of the Luxury Tax, so he's willing to roll with a 90 - 100 million dollar team and not even blink an eye, provided that the team has success in the playoffs.

If they crash and burn in the 1st round of the playoffs, the season will be a disaster for them ( despite this being their 1st playoff appearance in 9 years ). If they get to the 2nd round, but don't get it done, the season will be disappointment. But if they get to the EC Finals, their season will have been a success.

Instead of saving money, and rolling with Anthony Morrow, Yohan Petro, Jordan Farmar and Deshawn Stevenson, the Nets saw an opportunity to get a guy who can still play at a high level ( despite his superstar like contract ), and add other good players around him.

Joe Johnson this year ( even in a down year ) > all of those guys

Whether or not the Nets can get to the EC Finals remains to be seen. But at least they're going for it and not worrying about contracts. We as Hawk fans can NEVER say that the Hawks ever "went for it". Maybe when we added a good, but old Moses Malone after the 1988 playoff loss to the Celtics. But since then? Nope.

That's why I can't dog Mark Cuban for adding overpaid mediocre players to add with Dirk, and see if they can get him his title ( they eventually did ). That's why I can't dog what the LA Lakers have consistently done over the years, basically saying to hell with a Luxury Tax. That's why I can't dog what Miami is currently doing, because it worked out for them.

What happens if a team tries to "poision pill" or frontload Jeff Teague's contract? What happens if Korver gets a 2 yr - 16 million deal from some team desperate for outside shooting? What happens if Al Jefferson gets close to a MAX deal from a team, and we had our eyes on Jefferson?

And 3 years from now, what do we do with Al Horford, when he himself may be talking about a MAX deal?

What do we do?

I'll tell you what we're going to do. If we want to stay competitive, we're going to PAY, just like every other team in the league does.

[MaceCase]

Read your first sentence again.

Ferry has only traded our best player highest paid player for a bunch of ending contracts. So that we can have capspace. OK. Since he cannot be judged by what he hasn't done, let's judge him on just that. He traded our best player highest paid player for Nothing. Capspace represents what he hasn't done yet.

That's my point. The work is incomplete and you're giving him A+. I give him an I until I see what comes of this capspace.

This is the biggest disconnect amongst Ferry's hypercritics, they are still judging the Joe trade based on the presumption that he was the team's best player when he unequivocally wasn't. Josh led the team last year and Al is leading the team this year. It's funny that the "haters" are said to be wishing ill on Brooklyn when the truth is that the "lovers" have yet to find a way to explain why this team has managed to still win without its "best player".

You say he was traded for nothing but the standings say the Hawks didn't lose much, and for that Ferry deserves praise. The fact that he was able to establish the opportunity to improve from there is an addition to the move that he already accomplished.

[MaceCase]

I think Brook Lopez being healthy for a full season has just as much if not more to do with it.

You can throw Deron in there too as being healthy and giving a f*** but alas, to placate the Treadmill Enthusiasts, let's just attribute their jump in success to the 3rd best (4th once you include Blatche) yet highest paid member of their team being the difference......

Just got deja vu after writing that sentence.

[Eddielives]

So I'm going to try and sum up this thread. Post is made showing Simmons's opinions on the worst contracts in the NBA. Joe is considered the worst and Marvin's one of the worst. We are Hawks fans. We comment on how great it was for our GM to have managed to get rid of both contracts. Enter praise for DF for the completed action without any mention of future moves that had nothing to do with getting rid of the contracts at the time. You can only take one step at a time for a master plan to work out. The praise was handed down for the completed action, end of story. Enter those who insist you cannot judge getting rid of Joe's contract or Marvin's without waiting to see what he does in the future with the capspace. This is a fair point if you separate what the original intent of this thread was about which was to highlight the ugliness of Joe and Marvin's contracts. Then we get the New Jersey is doing the opposite of what the Hawks are doing and that is better than what we have done. Now we just have a pissing contest between the two sides. I maintain that DF can and should be commended for his moves thus far. This thread wasn't about DF's overall master plan. It was to highlight bad contracts in the NBA and how great it is we aren't the owners of two hideous contracts anymore, PERIOD!. You really learn about people's true intentions when they spin off into an unnecessary direction to piss on what they perceive unfairly to be other's motives for holding their own opinions(that is to say that there are just Joe haters who obviously hate the guy and the Nets and only hope to see them fail to make themselves feel better.) What DF does with the capspace is another thread for another day and definitely worthy of his final evaluation. But for now, can people just accept he's done a couple of great things? Would that hurt one's pride so much to do? Obviously it would and does. Sad.