Our draft picks - 2004 thru 2007

[Gray Mule]

#2 pick - 2005 ---- Marvin Williams

#3 pick - 2007 ---- Al Horford

#5 pick 2007 ---- Sheldon Williams

#6 pick - 2004 --- Josh Childress

# 11 pick - 2007 - Acie Law

#17 pick - 2004 - Josh Smith

(Hawks had no pick in 2008)

This was long ago enough to really see how our draft picks have turned out.

We still have only 1, AH, and he's out with injury.

Hasn't our drafting been great! And some want to throw away everything

for an opportunity to do this again!

[SalvorMallow]

It's time to check our dignity at the door, dump everything we have, and dive head first into the lottery GM. That's what I did and look at me now!

Edited March 18, 2014 by SalvorMallow

[capstone21]

different management who understands talent and our needs...and this season is ruined anyway

We are not throwing anything away by not making the playoffs (almost a foregone conclusion that we will make them)...we make the playoffs with probably 32 wins and get beaten up in the first round and draft at our 15th pick.

We don't make the playoffs and we have a chance at Wiggins, Embiid, Parker et al....a potential franchise player that can change the future outlook of the team.

[AHF]

Inept management in one instance does not mean that an approach is doomed to failure.

I see several good players coming out of our rebuild:

Al Horford - Best player on the team

Josh Smith - Good starter (flawed and overpaid today)

Boris Diaw - Plus rotation player (2004 pick)

Marvin Williams - Useful rotation player (reserve; overpaid)

Law, Chills, Shelden - Uselss

If you are going to take the approach of "what happened in the past speaks to the usefulness of this approach for the future" let's see what the Hawks have done for adding non-lottery talent to middling teams:

1999 - Cal Bowdler, Dion Glover, Jumaine Jones

1998 - Roshown McLeod

1997 - Ed Gray

1996 - Priest Lauderdale

1995 - Alan Henderson

1993 - Doug Edwards

1989 - Roy Marble

1987 - Dallas Comegys

1986 - Billy Thompson

I am not going to tell you that you can't add talent outside of the lottery because our drafting was incompetent both in and outside of the lottery.

But are you really going to disparage the process that got us Al Horford because of past failures and then ignore the run of Doug Edwards types that preceded it?

[supermariowest]

Again, as most anti-tank opinions do, we select a finite period during which it appears a point can be made all while ignoring the fact that the GMs who made those picks aren't here anymore which pretty much renders the entire analysis moot at best.

Can we try something productive and offer some real alternatives to getting championship level talent on the roster. None of us want to be bad. We just recognize the need to infuse talent onto the roster and FA isn't an option for us.

So, we can't talk about previous draft failures because those GMs are no longer here. I dig it, but can't we make the same argument concerning free agency? If having a new GM wipes the slate clean as far as early draft picks go, then having a new GM should wipe the slate clean as far as free agency goes as well.

[Sothron]

So, we can't talk about previous draft failures because those GMs are no longer here. I dig it, but can't we make the same argument concerning free agency? If having a new GM wipes the slate clean as far as early draft picks go, then having a new GM should wipe the slate clean as far as free agency goes as well.

Except we already have had two offseasons for that GM to do something in FA. He went for the homerun on CP3 and Dwight and missed out on both. So depending on FA when historically no superstar has ever signed a FA deal here is silly in the extreme.

We can only get a superstar by trade or draft. There's no other way around it. And you only win titles with superstars.

[AHF]

So, we can't talk about previous draft failures because those GMs are no longer here. I dig it, but can't we make the same argument concerning free agency? If having a new GM wipes the slate clean as far as early draft picks go, then having a new GM should wipe the slate clean as far as free agency goes as well.

If the primary factors leading to superstars passing over the Hawks as free agents changed, then we should wipe the slate clean. Atlanta doesn't entice free agents and that hasn't changed. More importantly, we still lack a star who can attract other free agents so that hasn't changed. Our coach doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars so that hasn't changed. Our GM doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars on his own (this isn't a big name HOFer like Pat Riley or Phil Jackson where you could make that argument) so that hasn't changed.

Now with the draft there is a very different set of circumstances. Our past GMs had the chance to draft some very good players and just passed on taking or keeping. Here are a few:

Bill Russell

Karl Malone

Chris Mullin

Tony Parker

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Pau Gasol

Iggy

Brandon Roy

Manu Ginobili

The only reason not to wipe the slate clean with respect to the draft is if the talent that will be available to the Hawks in the will be materially different and there is no reason to think that is the case. This is not Brooklyn where we have thrown away our draft assets for the next 5 or 6 years.

[capstone21]

So, we can't talk about previous draft failures because those GMs are no longer here. I dig it, but can't we make the same argument concerning free agency? If having a new GM wipes the slate clean as far as early draft picks go, then having a new GM should wipe the slate clean as far as free agency goes as well.

big name players are not interested in coming to Atlanta ...

[HawkItus]

If the primary factors leading to superstars passing over the Hawks as free agents changed, then we should wipe the slate clean. Atlanta doesn't entice free agents and that hasn't changed. More importantly, we still lack a star who can attract other free agents so that hasn't changed. Our coach doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars so that hasn't changed. Our GM doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars on his own (this isn't a big name HOFer like Pat Riley or Phil Jackson where you could make that argument) so that hasn't changed.

Now with the draft there is a very different set of circumstances. Our past GMs had the chance to draft some very good players and just passed on taking or keeping. Here are a few:

Bill Russell

Karl Malone

Chris Mullin

Tony Parker

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Pau Gasol

Iggy

Brandon Roy

Manu Ginobili

The only reason not to wipe the slate clean with respect to the draft is if the talent that will be available to the Hawks in the will be materially different and there is no reason to think that is the case. This is not Brooklyn where we have thrown away our draft assets for the next 5 or 6 years.

Only 4 of those guys have titles. And two of them won them together and were not lottery picks. IJS

[AHF]

Only 4 of those guys have titles. And two of them won them together and were not lottery picks. IJS

That has nothing to do with the issue of wiping the slate clean. Atlanta has rarely tried to position itself for lottery picks and has rarely drafted well and we have seen the limitations of that approach.

The point was that wiping the slate clean in the draft is easy - just get someone who makes better picks and make sure you get some draft picks in a range where they can make an impact. I don't know whether Ferry is that guy or not. His first few drafts haven't given me a clear direction on whether he is a top notch drafter or not and he hasn't had a shot at a top lottery pick in his career.

Wiping the slate clean on free agents is much harder. Just getting someone who makes smarter decisions with cap room isn't enough because you have to get free agents to choose you over other options unless they are your restricted free agents. I don't see that fundamental situation having changed - Atlanta still has no stars to attract elite free agents and still isn't such a desirable location based on other factors to attract those players. If Ferry goes out and signs Lebron or something, I will happily eat those words but I just don't think it is realistic.

[Randy]

AHF - ancient history, but the Hawks did have the draft rights to Bill Russell, and we traded them away. I wonder if we had kept those rights whether Russell would have won any or but a few championships and be considered as a lot less important figure in the game than he is now. The Celtics in those days had a great coach and other really good (or great) players. Might not have done so well as a Hawk.

[macdaddy]

Since I'm bored I'll interject that we did have a superstar player for years, although technically we didn't draft him. A hall of famer in fact. He got us to the second round.

[SalvorMallow]

Since I'm bored I'll interject that we did have a superstar player for years, although technically we didn't draft him. A hall of famer in fact. He got us to the second round.

That's a great point, and it shows that having a superstar no where near guarantees a championship. You have to have the winning organizational culture established FIRST.

Houston had Yao Ming AND Tracy McGrady and STILL couldn't win a championship.

[AHF]

Since I'm bored I'll interject that we did have a superstar player for years, although technically we didn't draft him. A hall of famer in fact. He got us to the second round.

That is the only time we have been a game away from the conference finals in the last 30 years. I'm not sure he was ever a top 5 player in the league or anything, but I still wish we could have seen that last season play out with him instead of Manning. It could have been our first conference finals.

AHF - ancient history, but the Hawks did have the draft rights to Bill Russell, and we traded them away. I wonder if we had kept those rights whether Russell would have won any or but a few championships and be considered as a lot less important figure in the game than he is now. The Celtics in those days had a great coach and other really good (or great) players. Might not have done so well as a Hawk.

I think it would have been multiple championships. Petit was amazing and combining him with Russell could have been a dynasty moment, IMO.

[supermariowest]

If the primary factors leading to superstars passing over the Hawks as free agents changed, then we should wipe the slate clean. Atlanta doesn't entice free agents and that hasn't changed. More importantly, we still lack a star who can attract other free agents so that hasn't changed. Our coach doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars so that hasn't changed. Our GM doesn't have the cache to recruit superstars on his own (this isn't a big name HOFer like Pat Riley or Phil Jackson where you could make that argument) so that hasn't changed.

I'm so tired of this notion that Atlanta can't entice free agents. All it takes is one. And you're right, I don't know who that one will be. But I can't get down with the idea that no superstar will ever come to Atlanta so the only way to success is to land a top pick.

[AHF]

I'm so tired of this notion that Atlanta can't entice free agents. All it takes is one. And you're right, I don't know who that one will be. But I can't get down with the idea that no superstar will ever come to Atlanta so the only way to success is to land a top pick.

I am done praying that we sign Lebron, etc. with open cap space and no enticing young player on the roster already. I am betting we need a young stud who the superstars want to play with to make it happen.

Right now we don't even have the cap room to sign a superstar so you know it isn't happening without some real cap maneuvering.

[supermariowest]

You're practicing selective listening. Also, yes the slate can be wiped clean on drafting with the hiring of a new GM while FA cannot be. Not only for the reasons already stated by @Sothron and @AHF but also due to the fact that draftees don't have a say in where they end up, free agents do.

No matter what city you're in, no matter what crappy ownership situation you have, no matter what your rep is around the league you can draft whoever is available and the likelihood of said draftee not joining your team (a la John Elway to the Colts) is slim to none. A GM's (and staff's) ability to spot and project talent is the chief determining factor in whether or not your team drafts well, thus every time you change GM's your draft abilities change with him. Make sense?

Selective listening? I implied that I agree with your point that a new GM wipes the slate clean as far as the draft goes. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm just rejecting this notion: A superstar free agent hasn't picked Atlanta in the past, so it will never happen.

[AHF]

Let's use this as a criteria. Has there been someone who was First or Second team All-NBA who signed with the Hawks or even seriously talked with them? I would normally put some limits on this like (in the last 20 years or that was 1st/2nd All-NBA in the prior 3 years) but let's just say ever in the 40 year history in Atlanta and simply note that the player has to have already been 1st or 2nd team All-NBA and still be in contention to be a top 10 player.

Let's try to put a list together of everyone who has done this. All who Atlanta has signed and all who they have seriously flirted with but failed to sign.

The only one who comes to my mind by virtue of this very generous definition of a superstar is a washing up Moses Malone who Atlanta signed at the very end of his All-Star relevance and who was never even 3rd team All-NBA with the Hawks. (He was tied for 13th in MVP voting one year in Atlanta with Mark Eaton and Larry Nance so I'll give him being in 'contention' for top 10 even if he clearly wasn't top 10.)

Edited March 18, 2014 by AHF

[NBASupes]

Inept management in one instance does not mean that an approach is doomed to failure.

I see several good players coming out of our rebuild:

Al Horford - Best player on the team

Josh Smith - Good starter (flawed and overpaid today)

Boris Diaw - Plus rotation player (2004 pick)

Marvin Williams - Useful rotation player (reserve; overpaid)

Law, Chills, Shelden - Uselss

If you are going to take the approach of "what happened in the past speaks to the usefulness of this approach for the future" let's see what the Hawks have done for adding non-lottery talent to middling teams:

1999 - Cal Bowdler, Dion Glover, Jumaine Jones

1998 - Roshown McLeod

1997 - Ed Gray

1996 - Priest Lauderdale

1995 - Alan Henderson

1993 - Doug Edwards

1989 - Roy Marble

1987 - Dallas Comegys

1986 - Billy Thompson

I am not going to tell you that you can't add talent outside of the lottery because our drafting was incompetent both in and outside of the lottery.

But are you really going to disparage the process that got us Al Horford because of past failures and then ignore the run of Doug Edwards types that preceded it?

Boris Diaw, John Jenkins, Salim Stoudmire, Pape Sy, Donta Smith, the list goes on. The Hawks haven't drafted well regardless of position. I still say last year was the most impressive Hawks draft I've seen in ages if ever. Most than likely ever.

[capstone21]

Other then draft our way will be through trade... Finding a guy ready to take his game to the next level in the right situation also helps. Harden is a great example...Houston became relevant again and suddenly other top names were interested in signing there.