Keep on Defending It!

[GameTime]

Lou wasn't a fit for our system. He wouldn't be balling the way that he is here in Atlanta. 

 

The trade was still garbage no matter how you feel about Lou.

[Guest]

Aren't you the poster that reminded me of a post I made that has nothing to do with the current post? Well damn, you must have a DeLorean in your garage. Please save the high school tactic of discrediting, you're a lot older than that. Smh

Cap flexibility means nothing when you use it on bums. Pero is a clear example of a general manager and coach trying to save face after making a dumb decision. He's not even half of what Zaza and Ivan contributed.

Oh so I'm right and you are the poster with low reading comprehension skills. Good to know. Funny how my response is deemed high school quality, but this thread? You've got a Pulitzer coming your way, dawg.

Also, cap flexibility does mean something and I've talked about it. Add in that players cost salary and the production of Lou from previous years costs us half that currently. The Hawks can also take on additional assets that they would not be able to if Lou were still on the team. It's about how the salary cap functions. I'd point you to those posts and articles on this subject but I know how that will turn out already.

Any discussion on Lou versus Mack completely misses the boat. Ever heard of costs? Kiiiind of important when running a business. But what do I know, I'm clearly some asshole with an agenda to push forth against players. {/sarcasm}

[willthepureshooter]

Oh so I'm right and you are the poster with low reading comprehension skills. Good to know. Funny how my response is deemed high school quality, but this thread? You've got a Pulitzer coming your way, dawg.

Also, cap flexibility does mean something and I've talked about it. Add in that players cost salary and the production of Lou from previous years costs us half that currently. The Hawks can also take on additional assets that they would not be able to if Lou were still on the team. It's about how the salary cap functions. I'd point you to those posts and articles on this subject but I know how that will turn out already.

Any discussion on Lou versus Mack completely misses the boat. Ever heard of costs? Kiiiind of important when running a business. But what do I know, I'm clearly some asshole with an agenda to push forth against players. {/sarcasm}

So do you think we got a good ROI in the Lou Trade? Let's look at who we received from the sacred "cap flexibility."

2014-2015

Thabo Sefolosha $4,150,000

Kent Bazemore $2,000,000

John Salmons $1,000,000 (Cap Hold from ridiculous trade)

Total: $7,150,000

Lou Williams: $5,450,000 (Expiring!)

Bebe: $1,762,680 (Rookie scale?)

According to production, we basically overpaid for two players that will have less impact combined than Lou's season after injury. While we also crippled ourselves by throwing in our young center. Aren't we lacking team rebounding? He has three years left on his deal with only $3,604,680 guaranteed. That's a win and a better contract scenario than what our general manager deemed it. Why not keep Bebe after season what he could provide with small minutes within a season? Why trade an expiring Lou a year after major knee surgery instead of giving him the opportunity to play 100% healthy and confident in his knee? If Lou keeps playing how he's playing, some playoff team would make a big gamble on his off the bench scoring capabilities at the trade deadline. Haha! Ferrys a clown! Let's do realize, Thabo has two more years remaining at $4,000,000 next season and $3,850,000 in his final year. Kent Bazemores still technically young but only has one year remaining at $2,000,000. Sadly, the kid can't find himself on the court even for defensive purposes. So overall, we spent $17 million of "cap flexibility" on two players that have yet filled in or matched the production of the players we lost. Just face it folks, Danny Ferry got too cute.

[High5]

This team needs defense, size and rebounding. Lou fixes almost none of the Hawks problems.

 

I'm going to actually agree with you. I did not like the trade for various reasons, but it's not because I think our team desperately needs Lou. Look at our defense in our 6 losses: 109, 94, 122, 127, 114, and 126. That's awful. 

[Vol4ever]

Lou wasn't a good fit here because he was a bench piece who could handle the ball and score. Scoring the ball off the bench isn't a good fit here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LMBO.

[Admin]

Is that you Mitt Romney?

Perhaps this will help you comprehend.

Lou > Mack > Jenkins

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

No one understands how important chemistry and fit are... Toronto is an ISO team and relies heavily on individual play.  Every guard on that team has the ability to create his own shot and that's why Lou fits them.  They don't pass the ball around like Atlanta does... Toronto currently ranks 25th in average team assists per game.  Hawks are 4th.

 

And because we don't have ISO players doesn't mean we NEED ISO players.  ISO guys don't fit here and Lou isn't worth changing the entire team dynamic for.  A guy like Durant would be, but not Lou.  I can all but guarantee you that Lou Williams would NOT be doing this in Atlanta.  He's doing it in Toronto because he fits.  And there is no forcing it to work.  It either does or doesn't and you don't completely change what you are doing without dumping the enitre roster (which Ferry did to bring in his system).  It's also why Baze has been unsuccessful since he got here.  Baze is best suited for an umtempo, D'Antoni offense.  Baze is best during transition and we are basically asking him to be a taller Mack.

 

Coach Bud and Ferry built this roster on a team model.  Our offense and defense is a collective effort.  We are pass, pass, shoot.  Lou is dribble, dribble, shoot.  He didn't fit.  Lou needs the ball to be successful.  Lou isn't a rhythm shooter.  No one else on the Hawks is like that.  Korver gets the ball off a screen, he shoots.  Millsap gets the ball open at the top of the key, he shoots.  Horford gets the ball in the midrange, couple jab steps, and shoots.  DMC gets the ball in the corner... he shoots.  Nobody creates his own shot because we rely on ball movement to get our guys open.  You beat the Hawks by clogging the passing lanes and forcing them into contested shots.

 

It's also the reason why I want Korver moved to the bench and it's also why I think Joe Johnson would flourish under Bud.  Korver has played his best seasons of his career while in Atlanta because he fits.  He would be PERFECT as the sixth man of the Hawks.  He plays the way that Ferry/Bud has built this team.  Ball movement and shooting.  Same for Joe.  Joe was his best coming off of screens and just shooting the rock.  He isn't an ISO player although that's what Woody/Drew tried to make him into.  I want Joe back if we can't find a younger version of him.

 

Players are NOT just plug and play in a team model... You have to get guys that fit.  Every player on San Antonio fits.  Every player on Memphis fits.  Every player on the 2004 Pistons fit.  Every player on Indy fit until they traded Granger (the heart and leader of that team) and brought in Bynum (locker room cancer).  We aren't lucky enough to be a team with Durant or Kobe where their individual play makes everyone around them better.  We have to rely on a cohesive group effort to win games.

[NBASupes]

No one understands how important chemistry and fit are... Toronto is an ISO team and relies heavily on individual play.  Every guard on that team has the ability to create his own shot and that's why Lou fits them.  They don't pass the ball around like Atlanta does... Toronto currently ranks 25th in average team assists per game.  Hawks are 4th.

 

And because we don't have ISO players doesn't mean we NEED ISO players.  ISO guys don't fit here and Lou isn't worth changing the entire team dynamic for.  A guy like Durant would be, but not Lou.  I can all but guarantee you that Lou Williams would NOT be doing this in Atlanta.  He's doing it in Toronto because he fits.  And there is no forcing it to work.  It either does or doesn't and you don't completely change what you are doing without dumping the enitre roster (which Ferry did to bring in his system).  It's also why Baze has been unsuccessful since he got here.  Baze is best suited for an umtempo, D'Antoni offense.  Baze is best during transition and we are basically asking him to be a taller Mack.

 

Coach Bud and Ferry built this roster on a team model.  Our offense and defense is a collective effort.  We are pass, pass, shoot.  Lou is dribble, dribble, shoot.  He didn't fit.  Lou needs the ball to be successful.  Lou isn't a rhythm shooter.  No one else on the Hawks is like that.  Korver gets the ball off a screen, he shoots.  Millsap gets the ball open at the top of the key, he shoots.  Horford gets the ball in the midrange, couple jab steps, and shoots.  DMC gets the ball in the corner... he shoots.  Nobody creates his own shot because we rely on ball movement to get our guys open.  You beat the Hawks by clogging the passing lanes and forcing them into contested shots.

 

It's also the reason why I want Korver moved to the bench and it's also why I think Joe Johnson would flourish under Bud.  Korver has played his best seasons of his career while in Atlanta because he fits.  He would be PERFECT as the sixth man of the Hawks.  He plays the way that Ferry/Bud has built this team.  Ball movement and shooting.  Same for Joe.  Joe was his best coming off of screens and just shooting the rock.  He isn't an ISO player although that's what Woody/Drew tried to make him into.  I want Joe back if we can't find a younger version of him.

 

Players are NOT just plug and play in a team model... You have to get guys that fit.  Every player on San Antonio fits.  Every player on Memphis fits.  Every player on the 2004 Pistons fit.  Every player on Indy fit until they traded Granger (the heart and leader of that team) and brought in Bynum (locker room cancer).  We aren't lucky enough to be a team with Durant or Kobe where their individual play makes everyone around them better.  We have to rely on a cohesive group effort to win games.

I agree but the idea of winning with Korver, DMC and Thabo isn't wise.

Thinking an undersized PF would fit with a movement PF isn't wise either.

We are right, Lou fits in Toronto which was stated when the trade happened. He didn't here but we don't really care about fit. We have no one who can score consistently outside of Jeff. Sap and Al constantly get in their own way. This shit don't work. We need a better SG than Korver. He's good because we run a gallizon screens but overall, he is mainly a role player and it shows when teams stick a defender on him like glue. He isn't Klay Thompson or Steph Curry. This Sap/Al combo is wack. Sap is a good player but no team is going to win with him as your #1 or #2 option. Horford yes but you have to run PnR, PnP's, and play around movement or else you SOL just as your SOL with Sap.

For a team who does so many things wrong, it makes little sense to talent for a penny on the dollar no matter who it is. It's that simple. This is a terribly ran organization. I don't know where we are going and to be frank, I don't care anymore. This organization doesn't either.

[Afro]

Doesn't fit the system? Yall act like he's Josh Smith lol.

If Bud is as much of a genius as we say I'm sure he could figure it out...

[nathan2331]

I agree but the idea of winning with Korver, DMC and Thabo isn't wise.

Thinking an undersized PF would fit with a movement PF isn't wise either.

We are right, Lou fits in Toronto which was stated when the trade happened. He didn't here but we don't really care about fit. We have no one who can score consistently outside of Jeff. Sap and Al constantly get in their own way. This shit don't work. We need a better SG than Korver. He's good because we run a gallizon screens but overall, he is mainly a role player and it shows when teams stick a defender on him like glue. He isn't Klay Thompson or Steph Curry. This Sap/Al combo is wack. Sap is a good player but no team is going to win with him as your #1 or #2 option. Horford yes but you have to run PnR, PnP's, and play around movement or else you SOL just as your SOL with Sap.

For a team who does so many things wrong, it makes little sense to talent for a penny on the dollar no matter who it is. It's that simple. This is a terribly ran organization. I don't know where we are going and to be frank, I don't care anymore. This organization doesn't either.

You act like the players we need are readily available. It's not easy to find a wing player or center. That's not to say your point is invalid, because you're right, but realistically who could we have brought in to play SG or? Jefferson is the obvious answer, but he was in no way a guarantee.

This coming free agency however will be big for us. If I'm the Hawks, I'm going after guys like Jimmy Butler and Marc Gasol.

[willthepureshooter]

No one understands how important chemistry and fit are... Toronto is an ISO team and relies heavily on individual play. Every guard on that team has the ability to create his own shot and that's why Lou fits them. They don't pass the ball around like Atlanta does... Toronto currently ranks 25th in average team assists per game. Hawks are 4th.

And because we don't have ISO players doesn't mean we NEED ISO players. ISO guys don't fit here and Lou isn't worth changing the entire team dynamic for. A guy like Durant would be, but not Lou. I can all but guarantee you that Lou Williams would NOT be doing this in Atlanta. He's doing it in Toronto because he fits. And there is no forcing it to work. It either does or doesn't and you don't completely change what you are doing without dumping the enitre roster (which Ferry did to bring in his system). It's also why Baze has been unsuccessful since he got here. Baze is best suited for an umtempo, D'Antoni offense. Baze is best during transition and we are basically asking him to be a taller Mack.

Coach Bud and Ferry built this roster on a team model. Our offense and defense is a collective effort. We are pass, pass, shoot. Lou is dribble, dribble, shoot. He didn't fit. Lou needs the ball to be successful. Lou isn't a rhythm shooter. No one else on the Hawks is like that. Korver gets the ball off a screen, he shoots. Millsap gets the ball open at the top of the key, he shoots. Horford gets the ball in the midrange, couple jab steps, and shoots. DMC gets the ball in the corner... he shoots. Nobody creates his own shot because we rely on ball movement to get our guys open. You beat the Hawks by clogging the passing lanes and forcing them into contested shots.

It's also the reason why I want Korver moved to the bench and it's also why I think Joe Johnson would flourish under Bud. Korver has played his best seasons of his career while in Atlanta because he fits. He would be PERFECT as the sixth man of the Hawks. He plays the way that Ferry/Bud has built this team. Ball movement and shooting. Same for Joe. Joe was his best coming off of screens and just shooting the rock. He isn't an ISO player although that's what Woody/Drew tried to make him into. I want Joe back if we can't find a younger version of him.

Players are NOT just plug and play in a team model... You have to get guys that fit. Every player on San Antonio fits. Every player on Memphis fits. Every player on the 2004 Pistons fit. Every player on Indy fit until they traded Granger (the heart and leader of that team) and brought in Bynum (locker room cancer). We aren't lucky enough to be a team with Durant or Kobe where their individual play makes everyone around them better. We have to rely on a cohesive group effort to win games.

Wrong! Toronto's offense is a heavy screen and motion system that's similar to ours. Please make more excuses for Ferry lol

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/11/13/7204487/toronto-raptors-breakdown-analysis-nba-eastern-conference

[Guest]

Lou wasn't a good fit here because he was a bench piece who could handle the ball and score. Scoring the ball off the bench isn't a good fit here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank. You. @Alex.

Was Lou playing cricket out there or something? No he wasn't a perfect fit but let's not act as if championships are only won with perfectly matched pieces.

[nathan2331]

Wrong! Toronto's offense is a heavy screen and motion system that's similar to ours. Please make more excuses for Ferry lol

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/11/13/7204487/toronto-raptors-breakdown-analysis-nba-eastern-conference

Toronto runs set plays designed to get players shots. While it features screens and ball movement, it shouldn't be confused with ours where are we have to pass the ball to get to an open shot. IIRC, they're in the bottom 5 for assists. Lou could have worked here, but I suppose he couldn't figure out how to play within the offense. In Toronto however, he's free to play his game, and they're a better team for it.

[nathan2331]

Thank. You. @Alex.

Was Lou playing cricket out there or something? No he wasn't a perfect fit but let's not act as if championships are only won with perfectly matched pieces.

If this team is going to win a championship, we're going to need perfectly matched pieces.

[NBASupes]

Wrong! Toronto's offense is a heavy screen and motion system that's similar to ours. Please make more excuses for Ferry lolhttp://www.sbnation.com/2014/11/13/7204487/toronto-raptors-breakdown-analysis-nba-eastern-conference

They running a system based on player movement. We run one based on ball movement and a couple players doing a lot of movement. Our offense should do both like the Spurs but Sap and Antić don't like to move much off the ball. Horf does but he's the only big who does. They have a lot of guys who move well without the ball but struggle at actually moving the ball. They are very similar to the Woody/J-Craw Hawks except they do move well without the ball while Woody Hawks did neither. They remind me of our old Hawks with similar strengths and far less flaws. Similar overall talent as well. Very similar teams. If we could have traded Smoove for a good center, we could have been a better verison of these Raptors.

[willthepureshooter]

Toronto runs set plays designed to get players shots. While it features screens and ball movement, it shouldn't be confused with ours where are we have to pass the ball to get to an open shot. IIRC, they're in the bottom 5 for assists. Lou could have worked here, but I suppose he couldn't figure out how to play within the offense. In Toronto however, he's free to play his game, and they're a better team for it.

What?! Lol. You make no sense. By the way, they don't make turnovers offensively like isolation oriented systems. Teague and Kyle Lowry are used the exact way, that's why Derozan and Ross had to develop a three point shot for it to work.

[Admin]

What?! Lol. You make no sense. By the way, they don't make turnovers offensively like isolation oriented systems. Teague and Kyle Lowry are used the exact way, that's why Derozan and Ross had to develop a three point shot for it to work.

 

I have no idea where you're getting this idea that they run the same system that we do. If that were the case, they'd be in the top 5 in assists like us and the Spurs always are in this system. They run quite a lot of 1 on 1 and even the Raptors announcers last night mentioned how the players have learned to back off when one of them is going to go 1 on 1. That doesn't mean they're running Woody ball, but they're closer to that than they are Buddy ball. 

[nathan2331]

What?! Lol. You make no sense. By the way, they don't make turnovers offensively like isolation oriented systems. Teague and Kyle Lowry are used the exact way, that's why Derozan and Ross had to develop a three point shot for it to work.

What three point shot. The article you quoted literally states that Derozan abandoned the three point shot so he could focus on driving to the basket. They are 25th in assists per game.

[BrazilianHawk]

What did we get from this trade?

 

We got rid of Salim Stoudamire Lou williams who was an awful fit for our offense.

 

We got more flexibility to try to get some very good guys (Deng, Pau) and, more important, the opportunity to develop Schröder's play.

 

It's a WIN.

[NBASupes]

It's not a win. It's just not a total fail. It's still a fail. You don't give away talented players when you already lack talented players.