IF the Jazz end up in the lottery

[Plainview1981]

Kirilenko's numbers are 16.1 pts 7.2 rebounds 3.1 assist 2.7 turnovers and he is shooting at 47% from the field.

Shareef's numbers are 20.7 pts 9.8 rebounds 2.4 assist 2.3 turnovers and he is shooting 51% from the field.

"

I don't care what Reefs numbers are. Mostly it's due to

lack of offensive options and for the fact Reef gets trash

numbers in unimportant games. Every game Reef goes out

there it's just playing out the games because his teams

never compete for the playoffs.

Reef has yet to play an important game and win in his

8 year career.

[Playmaker0017]

Hotlanta,

Again, you either have little knowledge of our team or little knowledge of the sport... or maybe both.

Let's talk Theo first. Theo gets manhandled by centers, because he himself is not a center. He is a PF pretending to be a C. We all know this.

Yes, Theo gets stupid fouls. But, he gets a lot of them from being out of position and trying to get back to his man. He should play more heads-up and allow the basket rather than risking the foul.

Reef may be "soft", but he also plays average defense. Most players in this league, especially offensive players, will not take a charge. I've seen Reef sacrifice his body in every game this year.

Reef is an average defender. He has off nights, which most of the great defenders don't. He has on nights, which most of the good defenders hang around at. But, most nights, he is there -being average.

As for the Utah comment ... thus Andrei is NOT better than Shareef, because Sloan is artificially making Andrei look good by the system he has in place. It isn't the case of the players making the system, rather than the system making the players.

Play.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

You are such a parrot. You don't have an original idea floating around in that cranium of yours... do you?

What did ESPN say last night, so you can inform us who is the greatest player of the moment.

Reef hasn't won because he has had abysmal coaching and been on worse teams. One man cannot make a team win.

If you put any player here, and use him like we do Shareef, our record would show negligable changes in each direction. The only thing KG or TD bring more than Shareef is defense, but one man can't make a defense.

Both KG and TD have good roleplayers surrounding them and a coach that utilizes them properly. He has clearly defined the roles.

So, again - you can say Reef scores because the games are unimportant and somehow that is his fault... it is your opinion. Unfortunately, that opinion is just pigheaded.

Play.

[Plainview1981]

Let's talk Theo first. Theo gets manhandled by centers, because he himself is not a center. He is a PF pretending to be a C. We all know this."

The only way Theo can look good is a defensive player is

if he is surrounded by lots of other defensive players like

Tyrone Hill/George Lynch/Eric Snow.....I believe THeo was

a backup with Detroit and he should be a backup now.

Doug Christie/Ron Artest are good defensive players and

don't need other pieces around them to look like good

defensive players.

"Reef may be "soft", but he also plays average defense. Most players in this league, especially offensive players, will not take a charge. I've seen Reef sacrifice his body in every game this year. "

He averages less than a half a block a game as a PF, he

has to have help defense because he is a poor defensive

player...His career rebounding isnt all that great for a guy

that plays 38MPG as a PF.

"As for the Utah comment ... thus Andrei is NOT better than Shareef, because Sloan is artificially making Andrei look good by the system he has in place."

Yeah whatever. Andrei is FAR superior in athletic ability,

defensive awareness, shot blocking ability, stealing and

defense overall. He doesn't cherry pick for rebounds like

Reef.

Fact it, your nothing but Reef's personal dyckrider. Like

i said before, it's good that he has one fan in the world...

but that doesn't make him good.

[Plainview1981]

Your so busy riding a dyck that you can't see the point.

The point is that until he plays and does something in

meaningful game everything is hearsay. Thus far he's

been nothing but a 4th period choke and a soft player.

Until Reef wins his stats doesn't mean anything.

Reefs one fan lays one excuse after another....Your

boy isn't that good. He's no better or no more proven

than Antwan Jamison or Juwon Howard. [censored], his career

numbers aren't even as good as Antoine Walkers.

"The only thing KG or TD bring more than Shareef is defense, but one man can't make a defense"

Those guys average 12RPG...When has Reef ever done

that? Those guys pass, when has Reef ever done that?

KG can play SF,PF,C and Reef can't do that....Did you

see those two three's KG had to send the game to over

time to beat the Kings...When has Reef ever done that?

Your such a freakin dyckrider that you actually think Reef

is the best player in the league. What a total moron.

[Playmaker0017]

Hotlanta,

Theo is an average defender. Artest is a good defender. Wallace is a good defender.

Can you not differentiate from good and average?

Again, Theo and Shareef are average defenders in a poor defending system and team.

You also need to understand that defense BEGINS at the perimeter. If you have good outside presence, the inside defenders can play better. We have AWFUL outside defenders.

As for Shareef... again, you just don't know jack about Shareef either. Shareef was forced to play SF, and he grabbed 8-9 rebounds in that position. Now that he is playing PF full-time and his back is not bothering him, he is averaging around 10. If you take away the first couple weeks when he was still getting back in shape and back in rythm - then he is averaging around 11-12. He is also dropping in 26-28 points. He is also shooting lights out at around 52-55%.

AS A PF!

Maybe he is hot, or maybe he is finally being given the ball EVERY time on offense and he is delivering like we all said he would. You can call it luck, you can say he is hot... I won't argue. Heck, I don't know. I hope he can sustain it and as a Hawks fan, you should hope he can too.

Then mentioning Andrei... you obviously don't watch this guy play basketball. Nor have you taken into account his frame. This guy is not about to pack on any poundage. His frame won't support it. He's maxed out. He also plays in a good system, which allows him to look better.

Blocks and steals are not the only indicators of a good defender, lest you be reminded that Theo leads the league in blocks and Terry gets a fair share of steals.

Play.

[Plainview1981]

Artest is a GREAT defender. There isn't one player at the

swingman position that he can't SHUT DOWN..He can even

shut down some PF's.

"You also need to understand that defense BEGINS at the perimeter. If you have good outside presence, the inside defenders can play better. "

Did you see what Kenyon done to Reef? Did you see how

Cliff Robinson scored on Reef time after time in a game

ealier this season? Did you see how Al Harrington droped

40 points on his @ss?

"ow that he is playing PF full-time and his back is not bothering him, he is averaging around 10."

It's 20 games into the season......

"He is also dropping in 26-28 points. He is also shooting lights out at around 52-55%. "

And the funny thing is that the better he's played the last

few weeks the team has LOST even more than it was at

the start of the season. Again, none these games have

been important....The Hawks aren't compete for anything.

When your team losses good stats mean nothing.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

Artest has been lit up by his fair share of players. He isn't infallible. Actually, I remember one of Cleveland's first games..... they played Indiana and BOOZER (of all people) went 10-16 on him.

But, that doesn't matter. He is still a great defender. No doubt. Heck, Boozer could have scored 65 and I would still say Artest is a great defender.

Okay, now you mention these random games. Did I see what Kenyon DONE to Reef? No, I saw what he did. But I challenge you to answer: does Kenyon, Robinson or Harrington have ANYTHING to do with my statement that "defense BEGINS at the perimeter"? No... no it doesn't. You just can't resist bringing that up, like it actually is an indicator of ANYTHING!

You are the only one who thinks so.

I guess since one meeting performances are so indicative of a players overall skill level that Wallace is awful -- he got schooled by Reef, TWICE!

Please, unless you have ANYTHING of value to offer, just shut it. Reef is a great player on an awful team. If he played on a better coached team, he would be considered a premier player.

Play.

[Traceman]

I don't think so. That being said, since Utah is under the cap, if they would send us Kirilenko for Reef straight up, I'd be all over that deal. Next year when Reef is making $14.6 million, Kirilenko will be making $1.6 million. We could use that $13 million differential to go after other players where we have needs. Actually, a group of:

Nazr

Theo

Kirilenko

Diaw

JT

wouldn't be half bad to start rebuilding with. Theo, Kirilenko and Diaw are all very good defensive players. If we could get a defense-minded big man out of the draft with our sure fire lottery pick (Okafor, Johnson, etc), to replace Nazr, we could be on our way to having an identity as an athletic team that plays great D.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

I don't care what Reefs numbers are. Mostly it's due to

lack of offensive options and for the fact Reef gets trash

numbers in unimportant games. Every game Reef goes out

there it's just playing out the games because his teams

never compete for the playoffs.

Reef has yet to play an important game and win in his

8 year career.

---

WTF does that have to do with anything? We are talking about talent and ability. Shareef is the one All-Star caliber player on this roster, and you knock him because the team is garbage? I guess Elton Brand is overrated too, since he hasn't played in a playoff series yet, therefore he hasn't played in a meaningful game yet. I guess Webber was overrated until he was traded away from the god awful Wizards and finally was surrounded with decent teammates. I guess we finally see how overrated Paul Pierce is, now that his Boston Celtic team is struggling without Antoine Walker. Bottom line, Shareef is more talented than Kirilenko. Kirilenko is still a young player, so he might become better in a couple of years.

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

I don't think so. That being said, since Utah is under the cap, if they would send us Kirilenko for Reef straight up, I'd be all over that deal. Next year when Reef is making $14.6 million, Kirilenko will be making $1.6 million. We could use that $13 million differential to go after other players where we have needs. Actually, a group of:

Nazr

Theo

Kirilenko

Diaw

JT

wouldn't be half bad to start rebuilding with. Theo, Kirilenko and Diaw are all very good defensive players. If we could get a defense-minded big man out of the draft with our sure fire lottery pick (Okafor, Johnson, etc), to replace Nazr, we could be on our way to having an identity as an athletic team that plays great D.

---

Yeah, I'm sure Utah would also do that deal in a heartbeat. Shareef would give Utah the low post presence that they currently lack. Kirilenko, Collins, and Ostertag do not give them anything down low. Yeah, I would love to see Nazr's garbage ass starting (insert sarcasm right here). Give me a freaking break. Who is going to score down low, Nazr?

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

Hots,

Artest has been lit up by his fair share of players. He isn't infallible. Actually, I remember one of Cleveland's first games..... they played Indiana and BOOZER (of all people) went 10-16 on him."

That's because Artest is a swingman and Boozer is a PF.

What the H2ll is your point?

"Please, unless you have ANYTHING of value to offer, just shut it. Reef is a great player on an awful team. If he played on a better coached team, he would be considered a premier player. "

Reef doesn't even produce enough to be a great player.

20PPG 8RPG isn't enough to be a great player anyway.

Walker is nearly matching Reef's production as a 4th

option. Meanwhile Reef is barely pulling in 20PPG as

a teams first and only option.

You can shout if if if if all you want, but you have nothing

to back it up.

[Playmaker0017]

Trace,

And next year when Kirilenko demands a larger salary?

Reef is the kind of player that would negotiate his salary down to win... I think he will do this...

Kirilenko will be near 14 million when he renegotiates.

Play.

[Plainview1981]

We are talking about talent and ability."

What talent other than scoring? Bad passer, bad defender,

poor shot blocker, bad leader, no passion.

Reef is no better than Antwan Jamison and you or play

have yet to prove otherwise.

[Plainview1981]

You have this vision than Reef is Shaq like on offense

and nobody can stop him...blah blah blah

He's not big enough to overpower people, his moves

are predictable...You surround Reef with a more talented

team his production is likely to fall of has it done last

year. I remember when the Dog trade was made Diesel

was trying to convince me that Reef would average 25PPG

againest single coverage...blah blah blah...It didn't happen

did it? In fact, Reef's numbers slipped abit from 21PPG 9.1RPG down to 19.9PPG 8.4RPG...You can cry about the

back, but that is hearsay. Tmac has had a bad back for

a few years now but that hasn't slowed his production...

Shaq has been injuried for years...but he still gets his

numbers...Larry Bird had a bad back and ankles for years

and still produced year in and year out.

[Plainview1981]

And I don't just blame Reef...I blame all the players on this team. It's all 12 mens fault this team sucks.

[KB21]

It's extremely stupid to trade Reef unless you are getting a young player with potential in return or at least know you will be getting a high to mid lottery pick in return.

[KB21]

Hotlanta is an idiot. Don't pay him any attention.

[Plainview1981]

That's why I said I'd accept a ltto pick and Clark from

the Jazz for Reef.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

That's why I said I'd accept a ltto pick and Clark from

the Jazz for Reef.

---

And what in the [censored] is the purpose of that trade? What is Keon Clark going to do for this team? The lottery is a crap shoot. I wouldn't trade Shareef for just a lottery pick, that is stupid. The Hawks would have to get a servicable player/s along with the lottery pick.

TROUBLEMAN