IF the Jazz end up in the lottery

[Plainview1981]

That's why you need a smart GM. Didn't the Lakers give

up Vlade for the rights to Kobe Bryant?

Reef doesn't have the trade value you think he has. He's

overpaid and probably will expect a raise......Those kind of

players aren't easy to get rid of as it is....

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

That's why you need a smart GM. Didn't the Lakers give

up Vlade for the rights to Kobe Bryant?

---

Yeah, and the Lakers had Shaq coming, so of course they could afford to move Vlade. Is Keon Clark as good as Shareef? Is he even close? Heck no, so again where is the benefit? A lottery pick? The lottery is a crap shoot. You trade expendable players for lottery picks, not your only star caliber player. If the Hawks had another low post player, then yeah I would agree, they could move Shareef. But they don't, so the trade proposal has no benefit.

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

Yeah, and the Lakers had Shaq coming, so of course they could afford to move Vlade. Is Keon Clark as good as Shareef? Is he even close? Heck no, so again where is the benefit? A lottery pick? The lottery is a crap shoot. You trade expendable players for lottery picks, not your only star caliber player. If the Hawks had another low post player, then yeah I would agree, they could move Shareef. But they don't, so the trade proposal has no benefit. "

LOL have you look at this franchise lately? Have you noticed

there isn't one franchise in the league in worse shape other

than the Knicks maybe.

"not your only star caliber player."

Stars don't go playoff less for 8 seasons....Coming up

on 9...

"If the Hawks had another low post player"

[censored] a lowpost player. How many post players does

Detroit/Philly/Dallas/Portland have?

This franchise SUCKS and is going to SUCk for the

next several years unless some moves are made. Reef

doesn't bring wins so TRADE HIM. He's had more than

enough time.....

Look at Denver. I know they had a bad game last night,

but they traded away McDyess and it's ALREADY paying

off for them. I'd sure as heck take Nene Hilero over 31

year old McDyess.

Reef is in the same class as Jamison/Dice...They will

have nice numbers, but they aren't good enough to

make your team win. Get over it. This franchise is

going nowhere with Reef sucking 15 million a year

just to pad his own stats.

[Packfill]

Right now there are few players in the league playing any better than SAR. Lots of excellent/great players would not sniff the playoffs without being surrounded by the right cast. Kidd could barely get there before NJ, CWEbb couldn't generate W's before Sactown, Mashburn I don't think was on a winning team until New Orleans, Garnett, despite being acknowledged as one of the best in the game can't get out of the first round, neither can T-mac, Francis can't get the Rockets to the post-season, Pierce can't win on his own, MJ couldn't win without Pippen, etc.

Point is, one player does not a team make. I am not saying SAR is great but right now he is playing better then just about anybody.

I just don't understand all the bitchin and monin. He is a heck of a player. His defense is at least average, probably better. He is NOT an empty stat guy like Jalen Rose, Ricky Davis, etc. Realistically, it is hard to call any low post scorer who hits a high percentage of his shots an empty stat guy.

We all want this team to win but it means getting the right mix of players. Inserting Diaw into the starting line-up is a step in the right direction. If he develpps that is a big piece of the puzzle because he meets so many needs. The Hawks get two more role playing guys who fit a need and they are set. Basically they need another perimete guy who plays solid defense and has a dependable jump shot and a bruiser for the middle (I acknowledge these are hard to get).

[Plainview1981]

He is NOT an empty stat guy like Jalen Rose, Ricky Davis, etc. Realistically, it is hard to call any low post scorer who hits a high percentage of his shots an empty stat guy. "

No true...Because the games the Hawks are currently

playing are meaningless. Other teams don't take the

hawks seriousally. They know they are going to win the

game before it even starts.

Kidd could barely get there before NJ, "

He make the playoffs every year with the Suns

"CWEbb couldn't generate W's before Sactown,"

The Bullets made the playoffs twice and that's two

more times than Reef has smiffed the playoffs.

"Garnett, despite being acknowledged as one of the best in the game can't get out of the first round,"

It's called the western conference

"The Hawks get two more role playing guys who fit a need and they are set."

The Hawks need a legit scorer, a rebounder, two defenders,

a decent bench, some toughness, ball handling, outside

shooting.....JT isn't a legit NBA player......Theo is crippled

in everything but shot blocking.

[Traceman]

if we were to trade Reef for Kirilenko. So what? Reef will continue to score 20/10 but if we aren't winning, what does it really matter? That being said, whoever we draft next year (Okafor, Johnson, etc) or perhaps whoever we sign as a FA once we get rid of Reef's $14.6 million salary would probably take up some of Reef's low post production.

I wouldn't trade Reef for Kirilenko unless I was looking to totally revamp the team and that is EXACTLY what I think we need to do. It's not that I don't think Reef is a good player. I think he's a VERY good player. I just don't think our current mix will ever be able to get it done consistently and I don't think Reef is worth $14.6 million OR MORE to a team that has no chance to win.

[Traceman]

It will be the following season when he's due for a raise, just the time that Hendu and CC come off the books. At any rate, I will be SHOCKED if Kirilenko commands the max but even if he does, the max he will be eligible for will be AT LEAST $3 million (and probably more) less than what Reef will be eligible for. Even if Kirilenko commands $11 million a season to start in 05/06 (HIGHLY unlikely, [censored] probably be looking at a deal starting at around $9 million), that is still $3.6 million less than Reef will make in 04/05.

As for Reef taking a pay cut to win, we'll see. If he were willing to resign a longterm deal in 05/06 starting at $11 million a season, I wouldn't trade him. I would make him an integral part of our rebuilding effort. I think we can win paying him that much because Hendu, Theo and CC will all be FAs. What I don't think we can do is give him a raise in 05/06 and expect to put good players on the court with him. Reef is good but he is not good enough to carry a team.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

LOL have you look at this franchise lately? Have you noticed

there isn't one franchise in the league in worse shape other

than the Knicks maybe

---

Yep, I agree. The Knicks do not have a player the caliber of Reef, and if they did, I don't think they would be trying to trade him. Especially for Keon Clark and a pick.

In reply to:

---

Stars don't go playoff less for 8 seasons....Coming up

on 9...

---

They do if they play for an expansion team for their first 5 seasons, and a rebuilding team with bad management their next 3.

In reply to:

---

a lowpost player. How many post players does

Detroit/Philly/Dallas/Portland have?

---

Philly has one in Derrick Coleman. Detroit has one in Corliss Williamson. Portland has two in Zack Randolph (You do know who he is right) and Rasheed Wallace, Dallas has several, since Finley can play down low against most guards, Dirk can play with his back to the basket on occassion, and Walker. Who are the Hawks going to put down low without Shareef? Nazr? Glover? Theo? Maybe they can post Dickau.

In reply to:

---

Look at Denver. I know they had a bad game last night,

but they traded away McDyess and it's ALREADY paying

off for them. I'd sure as heck take Nene Hilero over 31

year old McDyess.

---

Yeah, it payed off to the tune of a 17 win season last year. If you think Denver is going to the playoffs this year, then I would like to get some of what you are drinking. I would take Nene over 31 year old, just back from rehab McDyess also, but I wouldn't take him over 27 year old Shareef. Nor would I take Kirilenko or Keon Clark.

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

Philly has one in Derrick Coleman. Detroit has one in Corliss Williamson. Portland has two in Zack Randolph (You do know who he is right) and Rasheed Wallace, Dallas has several, since Finley can play down low against most guards, Dirk can play with his back to the basket on occassion, and Walker."

Coleman and Finley. lol pushing a jumpshooting SG as a

post player is pretty desperate I'd say.

"Yeah, it payed off to the tune of a 17 win season last year. "

Look this year nimrod....They currently lead their division

and have alot better future than this crappy Hawks team

has, Reef or no Reef. Nobody besides maybe the few stupid

Hawk fans here would rather have the Hawks team than

the Nuggets teams.

I'd surely rather have the Nuggets roster than the hawks

sorry bunch of jokers.

Your just like your ID says a troubledman....Or maybe

just being a Hawk fan is your trouble. I'm sure your one

of the fools that actually thought this team was a playoff

bound team the last couple of years. lol

[Plainview1981]

It's pretty simple...Either the Hawks get rid of stat pading

overpayed players like Reef/Theo and start building a young

and up coming team or else what you see now will continue

for a long time yet to come. I guess you enjoy the losses

as long as the good ole boys Reef/JT are allowed to post

good numbers in losses.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

Coleman and Finley. lol pushing a jumpshooting SG as a

post player is pretty desperate I'd say.

---

Notice I mentioned a couple of other players on that team. As far as Finley, it's called taking advantage of matchups. He is a big, athletic shooting guard, who sometimes will post up smaller two guards. Unlike Dion Glover he is quite effective at it. I guess Andre Miller can't play in the post either, huh? I suppose you have to be a big guy to play there.

In reply to:

---

Look this year nimrod....They currently lead their division

and have alot better future than this crappy Hawks team

has, Reef or no Reef. Nobody besides maybe the few stupid

Hawk fans here would rather have the Hawks team than

the Nuggets teams.

---

I agree, people would rather have Carmelo Anthony, Nene, and possibly Andre Miller (whose stock is falling). I don't think people are clamoring to get Voshon Leonard, Jon Barry, Marcus Camby, and many of the other scrubs who will be the main reason why that team does not make the playoffs this year. They beat a couple of quality teams, but so has Atlanta. Talk to me at the end of the season, when they are visiting the lottery just like the Hawks.

In reply to:

---

Your just like your ID says a troubledman....Or maybe

just being a Hawk fan is your trouble. I'm sure your one

of the fools that actually thought this team was a playoff

bound team the last couple of years. lol

---

I believe the Hawks have a chance to go to the playoffs every year. Why not? [censored] Detroit did it, when everybody and their mother was picking them to finish last in the Central Division. Who thought Denver was going to start the way they did? Who knew that San Antonio and Phoenix would struggle early? Who knew that Orlando would be the worst team in the league?

If you are trying to insult me, messageboard thug, why don't you talk about my mother or something. Calling me a nimrod because I have expectations, will not hurt my feelings. lol

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

It's pretty simple...Either the Hawks get rid of stat pading

overpayed players like Reef/Theo and start building a young

and up coming team or else what you see now will continue

for a long time yet to come. I guess you enjoy the losses

as long as the good ole boys Reef/JT are allowed to post

good numbers in losses.

---

Actually it is really quite simple. Stop making stupid trades like the team is one player away from a championship, and draft smartly. Stop giving away talent, just because it is not working right now. I'm sure the Wizards wish they wouldn't have done the Webber and Rasheed deals. This team has wasted picks and traded picks, looking for quick fixes, instead of acquiring talent through the draft.

You guys keep talking about clearing salary cap space, well who in the [censored] is going to want to sign here, when the Hawks have little or no young talent. Keep Shareef, and draft correctly. Things will turn around before you know it.

People can say coaching, and all that other nonsense, but what really is hurting the Hawks is the inability to draft when a bad team is supposed to draft. You rarely get impact players with the 20th pick in any draft, or by trading for the rights to Dan Dickau. There is no need to tear the completely apart. Has that worked for the Clippers yet? How about the Bulls? Or the Wizards? Yeah, the Heat are on the threshold of being playoff contenders with their all guard/small forward lineup.

Trade Theo, while he still has a little value. Trade Nazr, if you can't move Theo for something. Those are about the only two Hawks with any value, that I would trade. The rest of the team, outside of Reef, JT, and Diaw, is not even worth offering to anyone. I agree, the Hawks do have problems, but moving Reef for salary cap space and a lottery pick is not the answer.

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

[censored], I just remembered, The Hawks traded a future 1st round pick for Dan Dickau. ouch. Moves like this is what's keeping the Hawks from making improvement. I know some of you guys like Dan Dickau, but with JT as the 2, what kind of backcourt did management expect that to be? Even if they thought Dan Dickau would only become a backup, what in the [censored] were they thinking about trading a future first round pick for him? Just another example of dumb management decisions. Dan Dickau is shorter than JT, and just as bad on the defensive end. His jump shot is broke. He is slow. WTF were they thinking about?

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

Notice I mentioned a couple of other players on that team. As far as Finley, it's called taking advantage of matchups. He is a big, athletic shooting guard, who sometimes will post up smaller two guards. Unlike Dion Glover he is quite effective at it. I guess Andre Miller can't play in the post either, huh? I suppose you have to be a big guy to play there.

"

You don't need an overpaid 14 million a year second rate

PF.

" I don't think people are clamoring to get Voshon Leonard"

Actually this team sure as heck could use an outside shooter like Lenard. You are aware he'd be the 3rd

leading scorer on this crappy team aren't you?

"I believe the Hawks have a chance to go to the playoffs every year. Why not?"

It's easy to see the flaws of a team. Maybe not for a

dumbell like you, but most can see it. Most know it...

No PG, No defense, Limited scorers, no experience,

no bench.....

It's pretty easy.

[Plainview1981]

when the Hawks have little or no young talent. Keep Shareef, and draft correctly. Things will turn around before you know it. "

That's the point you stupid fu)ker....you can't build around

Reef because he isn't good enough to build around and he's

overpayed.....

" You rarely get impact players with the 20th pick in any draft, or by trading for the rights to Dan Dickau."

That;s why you trade for lotto picks moron.

'but moving Reef for salary cap space and a lottery pick is not the answer. "

Yes it is because he isn't worth what he's getting paid.

[Plainview1981]

Oh and getting rid of Rasheed is no heartbreak....Heck,

Portland probably would love to get rid of him themselves.

And there is a difference between trading Webber for an

aging and overrated Mitch Richmond and trading Reef for

a lotto pick. In fact, Mitch Richmond was an overrated loser

just like Reef has been for 8 years. Their careers have taken

paths that are alot alike...

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

That's the point you stupid fu)ker....you can't build around

Reef because he isn't good enough to build around and he's

overpayed.....

---

That's [censored]. You can't build around Reef because we trade or blow our first round picks. The Hawks think they are one player away from winning, so they trade for trash like Big Dog, when there are still defensive and ball handling issues. Bad teams give Alan Henderson, Chris Crawford, and Nazr Mohommad huge raises, when they haven't done [censored] in the NBA. Bad teams send two first round picks for trash like Lorenzen Wright. Bad teams send future first round picks for short slow point guards, when your best shooting guard is also short. Saying you can't build around a 20-10 guy is stupid as [censored].

In reply to:

---

That;s why you trade for lotto picks moron

---

The point of the comment was if the Hawks kept their own lottery picks instead of thinking they're too good to finish in the lottery, they wouldn't be stuck in this situation. Also trading Shareef for a first round pick, doesn't guarantee that Utah is going to finish in the lottery anyway. So, if Utah squeaks into the playoffs, which is a strong possibility if they acquire a player like Shareef, then the Hawks are stuck with a 17th or 18th pick. The deal is just stupid, and only a team like the Hawks would make that move.

In reply to:

---

Yes it is because he isn't worth what he's getting paid.

---

Disagree. Vin Baker, Antonio Davis, Brian Grant, Tim Thomas, Keith Van Horn, Penny Hardaway, and Damon Stoudamire are guys that are overpaid. Shareef deserves every penny. It is not his fault that he has played for teams with poor managment. I'm not going to blame coaching, because even the best coaches can only do so much with flawed teams.

In reply to:

---

Actually this team sure as heck could use an outside shooter like Lenard. You are aware he'd be the 3rd

leading scorer on this crappy team aren't you?

---

How do you know that Voshon would be the third leading scorer if he played for the Hawks? He is not playing here, so how do you know what kind of looks or shot attempts that he would get in Atlanta? You don't know, so shut the f*uck up with that bullsh*t.

In reply to:

---

It's easy to see the flaws of a team. Maybe not for a

dumbell like you, but most can see it. Most know it...

No PG, No defense, Limited scorers, no experience,

no bench.....

It's pretty easy

---

I agree, it is pretty easy to see, but at the beginning of the season, everyone has a shot, and until the Hawks prove otherwise(which they have this year), I'm hoping for a playoff appearance.

In reply to:

---

Oh and getting rid of Rasheed is no heartbreak....Heck,

Portland probably would love to get rid of him themselves.

---

Yeah, Rasheed is only helping Portland make the playoffs every year in the toughest conference, while the Wizard are struggling just like the dumb ass Hawks. The Wizards really got the upperhand in that deal. Trading Rasheed for another less productive headache was an act of true genius.

In reply to:

---

And there is a difference between trading Webber for an

aging and overrated Mitch Richmond and trading Reef for

a lotto pick. In fact, Mitch Richmond was an overrated loser

just like Reef has been for 8 years. Their careers have taken

paths that are alot alike...

---

Yeah, Mitch Richmond was so overrated that he is probably headed to the Hall of Fame. Good players surrounded by bad talent just doesn't mean anything, huh?

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

Bad teams give Alan Henderson, Chris Crawford, and Nazr Mohommad huge raises,"

Sadly almost every team in the league has bad contracts..

"Bad teams send two first round picks for trash like Lorenzen Wright. Bad teams send future first round picks for short slow point guards, when your best shooting guard is also short. "

What does any of this have to do with rebuilding and getting

lotto picks?

" Saying you can't build around a 20-10 guy is stupid as"

Stats stats stats.. Jamison averaged 23/7 and he got his

@ss shiped off. Denver was unsucessful for years trying

to build around Dice. There are things like defense, leader

ship, and attitude and Reef doesn't have these things.

"lso trading Shareef for a first round pick, doesn't guarantee that Utah is going to finish in the lottery anyway. So, if Utah squeaks into the playoffs, which is a strong possibility if they acquire a player like Shareef, then the Hawks are stuck with a 17th or 18th pick."

That's why you wait to the day of draft like Denver did. See

who's a lottery team and make a deal.

"hareef deserves every penny."

20/8 is not enough for 14million. This stupid fu(ker Tim

Duncan...I know it's hard for you to believe the great

stat padder on bad teams Reef isn't a star. But only some

of the idiots here would view him as such. Reef ain't no

superstar.

"How do you know that Voshon would be the third leading scorer if he played for the Hawks? He is not playing here, so how do you know what kind of looks or shot attempts that he would get in Atlanta? You don't know, so shut the f*uck up with that bullsh*t. "

Because I know more about the NBA than your stupid @ss

knows. Like I said, for you to consider the Hawks a playoff

team is enough to show how stupid you are.

"Yeah, Rasheed is only helping Portland make the playoffs every year in the toughest conference, while the Wizard are struggling just like the dumb ass Hawks. The Wizards really got the upperhand in that deal. Trading Rasheed for another less productive headache was an act of true genius."

LOL you have no clue do you?

"eah, Mitch Richmond was so overrated that he is probably headed to the Hall of Fame. Good players surrounded by bad talent just doesn't mean anything, huh?"

What was his accomplishments? What did he win in the

NBA other than riding the Lakers bench for a ring? What

team did he make better? How many all defensive teams

did he make? If they throw Bill Walton the Joe Nasmith

of basketball as a top 50 alltime player it's possible that

anyone can get selected to the HOF.

Back to Reef, the only reason he even averages 20PPG is

because he's the first option on a team with no talent. Did

you notice that with the addition of Dog that Reef's numbers started to slip? He went from 21.2PPG down to

19.9PPG

Walker can still average 18PPG as a 4th option...I hightly

doubt Reef could do the same. Malone is averaging 16/10

as a 4th option...Think Reef could do that? I have my doubts.

Anybody that believes Reef deserves superstar money is

a freakin moron. 20/8 us barely allstar production and it

should count less since Reef scores on a talent lacking

team like the Hawks.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

I'll respond to this nonsense when I finish my finals today. lol

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

You'll respond with the same ole lopsided view...Reef

averages blah blah blah blah..Reef padding stats has

clearly swayed your thoughts. Maybe you should try

watching a real NBA team=)