IF the Jazz end up in the lottery

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

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Sadly almost every team in the league has bad contracts..

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Yeah, but the Hawks have a history of doing this dumb stuff. Anybody remember Jon Koncack? The Hawks and Knicks are notorious for overpaying bad players.

In reply to:

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What does any of this have to do with rebuilding and getting

lotto picks?

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Nothing, but you don't trade your best player for lottery picks, unless that player is a threat to leave after their contract expires.

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Stats stats stats.. Jamison averaged 23/7 and he got his

@ss shiped off. Denver was unsucessful for years trying

to build around Dice. There are things like defense, leader

ship, and attitude and Reef doesn't have these things.

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The Warriors traded Jamison, because they had a bigger need at point guard. They also had young players, namely Dunleavy and Troy Murphy that could step in and do Jamison's job. Who do the Hawks have? Alan Henderson? McDyess is not the player that Reef is. He never has been, and never will be. Dice relied on his great athletic ability, and now that he has knee problems, I doubt that he will ever come close to the numbers he put up pre-injury.

In reply to:

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That's why you wait to the day of draft like Denver did. See

who's a lottery team and make a deal.

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Yeah, Denver needed to trade Antonio Mcdyess. He was coming back from an injury, and only the Knicks were dumb enough to make the deal. Shareef, on the otherhand is healthy and productive, so there is no need to deal him for a lottery pick. The Hawks can use their picks wisely and build around Reef.

In reply to:

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20/8 is not enough for 14million. This stupid fu(ker Tim

Duncan...I know it's hard for you to believe the great

stat padder on bad teams Reef isn't a star. But only some

of the idiots here would view him as such. Reef ain't no

superstar.

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Re-read that post, and tell me what the [censored] are you saying about Tim Duncan. As far as Reef being a star, no he is not. The fact of the matter is, most stars are made by the media, not by their talent on the court. Antoine Walker was called a star even though he was shooting less than 40% from the field. Last year during the playoffs, I heard announcers talk about Tayshaun Prince being a future superstar, which is a buch [censored] if you watch his game. Shareef, will never be a "star" as long as he is surrounded by bad teammates and bad management.

In reply to:

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Because I know more about the NBA than your stupid @ss

knows. Like I said, for you to consider the Hawks a playoff

team is enough to show how stupid you are.

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Blah, Blah, Blah. Unlike you and other people, I wait until I see a team on the court before I determine they are or not a playoff team. There is this thing called chemistry, that in a weakened Eastern Conference can go a long ways in determining who does or doesn't make the playoffs. On paper, the so called experts were calling the Utah Jazz the worst team in the league. Two years ago, the Detroit Pistons were supposed to scrape the bottom of the Central Divison, but they didn't. Why? Because of that thing called chemistry. Watching the Hawks play, I now see that they don't have it.

In reply to:

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What was his accomplishments? What did he win in the

NBA other than riding the Lakers bench for a ring? What

team did he make better? How many all defensive teams

did he make? If they throw Bill Walton the Joe Nasmith

of basketball as a top 50 alltime player it's possible that

anyone can get selected to the HOF.

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So, now a star has to make all defensive team? Take a look at those Sacramento Kings rosters and tell me how that team was going to win. They didn't have a point guard. They didn't have a center. The Kings were a trash team. They didn't become anything, until they drafted or acquired Vlade Divac, Peja, and Jason Williams, along with good role players. They traded for Chris Webber (who was starting to develop the underachiever tag), and surrounded him with talent. The Mavs weren't [censored], until Dirk and Nash developed to help Michael Finley. After that, they started acquiring more talent to make the Mavs a contender.

The Hawks have done a [censored] poor job of surrounding their best player with the right mix of talent. Until they do, the Hawks and Reef will not make the playoffs.

In reply to:

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Back to Reef, the only reason he even averages 20PPG is

because he's the first option on a team with no talent. Did

you notice that with the addition of Dog that Reef's numbers started to slip? He went from 21.2PPG down to

19.9PPG

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So, I guess Reef is obviously no better than a 3rd option on a good team, huh? Yeah, Reef's numbers took a complete nose dive when they acquired Big Dog. I mean he dropped a whole 2 ppg. Shareef took two less shots per game and shot at a higher percentage. When you add another scorer/s to the mix, then of course numbers are going to go down. Wow Dirk Nowitzski is averaging 18 ppg now, I wonder is he garbage. Or maybe, it's the fact that they have more scorers on the team now.

In reply to:

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Walker can still average 18PPG as a 4th option...I hightly

doubt Reef could do the same. Malone is averaging 16/10

as a 4th option...Think Reef could do that? I have my doubts.

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And Malone and Walker play on teams that have real point guards. Both teams score a ton of points so there are plenty of shots to go around. It is a lot easier to score points, when there are other scorers around. It's a lot easier to beat single coverage, or hit wide open looks, than it is to fight through double teams, or make good passes and watch your teammates blow easy shots. Did you notice that Walker is shooting a career high, 43% (smirk) from the field and averaging a career low 2.7 turnovers. You know why? Simple, because the Mavs have other guys, including an All-Star point guard, that can handle the rock.

Reef is taking fewer shots than Walker, shooting at a higher percentage, and still averaging more points, on a team without as much talent. I truly doubt that Reef couldn't average more points and rebounds than Karl Malone and Antoine Walker if put into the same position. You act as if Reef doesn't have talent. He is a better scorer than Walker. He is as good a rebounder as Karl Malone.

Reef can't carry the Hawks to the playoffs. Nobody could, there are too many flaws. But, that doesn't mean you trade him. If the Hawks draft wisely over the next couple of seasons, and don't panic with dumb trades (like you are trying to do), they will be ok in 2005. Theo, Hendu, Crawford all come off the books by then. The Hawks can fill a free agent need, and still keep Reef.

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

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Maybe you should try

watching a real NBA team=)

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Since, I have had the NBA League Pass for the past 5 years, I see plenty of "real" NBA teams. That is why I understand the game more than you ever will. I can tell the difference between a good player on a bad team, and a bad player putting up good numbers on a bad team.

TROUBLEMAN

[Plainview1981]

The Warriors traded Jamison, because they had a bigger need at point guard"

I'm curious to know what a 32 year old Van Exel(with bad

knees) has over Arenas or even Earl Boykins at this point.

"The Hawks can use their picks wisely and build around Reef. "

Reef can't be built around..He doesn't produce enough and

terrible on defense and overpayed. If you anything besides

a stupid Hawks fan you'd see this. All Reef can do is score,

and that's not enough.

"They also had young players, namely Dunleavy and Troy Murphy that could step in and do Jamison's job. Who do the Hawks have?"

Jamison averaged 24PPG/8RPG and Dunleavy averages

12PPG 6RPG....Mikes doing his job...eh?

"He never has been, and never will be. Dice relied on his great athletic ability,"

So because Dice had athletic ability and Reef doesn' that

makes Reef better? lol Look he rebouned, blocked shots,

and Dice was a LOT better defensive player. Pure comedy.

Now players lose points for having athletic ability.... If that's what you go for Nique shouldn't be considered that

good either.

"Yeah, Denver needed to trade Antonio Mcdyess. "

Look at the Bulls with Elton Brand. Granted Chicago still

has some problems. But they are still ahead of the Hawks

and I think it will end up being a good benefit that they

are going to ditch the triangle offense....

"ntoine Walker was called a star even though he was shooting less than 40% from the field."

AI won an MVP shooting under 40% and went to the finals

So where has Reef had his high pecentage shooting got

him so far? That's right, playing golf with this ugly wife

every April.

"Shareef, will never be a "star" as long as he is surrounded by bad teammates and bad management. "

No. Reef will never be a star because He's boring, very little

athletic ability, poor defense, average passer at best, has

no charisma, chokes late in games, doesn't appear to give

100% every game and he hasn't made one player better

in his entire career.

"

Blah, Blah, Blah. Unlike you and other people, I wait until I see a team on the court before I determine they are or not a playoff team. There is this thing called chemistry, that in a weakened Eastern Conference can go a long ways in determining who does or doesn't make the playoffs. On paper, the so called experts were calling the Utah Jazz the worst team in the league. Two years ago, the Detroit Pistons were supposed to scrape the bottom of the Central Divison, but they didn't. Why? Because of that thing called chemistry. Watching the Hawks play, I now see that they don't have it."

LOL a smart fan can look at this team and see the flaws..

NO PG..Shooting guards that nobody wanted.....an undersized C and a TERRIBLE bench. Only a dumb@ss

Hawk fan would believe this team could crack the playoffs.

Even other players laugh at this team.

"he Hawks have done a [censored] poor job of surrounding their best player with the right mix of talent. Until they do, the Hawks and Reef will not make the playoffs. "

Well, considering the team is capped out I highly doubt

they'll have a chance to land a REAL first option player.

"

So, I guess Reef is obviously no better than a 3rd option on a good team, huh? Yeah, Reef's numbers took a complete nose dive when they acquired Big Dog. I mean he dropped a whole 2 ppg. Shareef took two less shots per game and shot at a higher percentage."

Exactually right. Reef became even LESS aggressive with

more scores. That's not a sign of a first option.

Reef is taking fewer shots than Walker, shooting at a higher percentage, and still averaging more points, on a team without as much talent."

Reef plays on a garbage team in MEANINGLESS games. Hawks rarely play in competetive game and they never

compete for anything. When Reef is pure in a pressure

situation he's likely to choke. Heck, he chokes at the end

of meaningless games.

"And Malone and Walker play on teams that have real point guards. Both teams score a ton of points so there are plenty of shots to go around. It is a lot easier to score points, when there are other scorers around. It's a lot easier to beat single coverage, or hit wide open looks, than it is to fight through double teams, or make good passes and watch your teammates blow easy shots"

Walker and Malone have BOTH been been better passers

than Reef their entire careers. Having ability to pass*and

not just the east passes* makes other players better. What

NBA player has Reef ever made better? Name one.

" Did you notice that Walker is shooting a career high, 43% (smirk) from the field and averaging a career low 2.7 turnovers. You know why? Simple, because the Mavs have other guys, including an All-Star point guard, that can handle the rock. "

No, that's because he doesn't have to force shots like

he did in Boston. Reef had what you guys tried to pass

off as two or three allstars last year and yet the team

seen NO IMPROVEMENT. According to you guys Theo

was a allstar center and Dog was supposed to open

up things for Reef to average 25PPG*cough cough Diesel*

but it didn't happen. I know I know...your not smart

enough to be able to have a real opinion on a team

before they play.

"eef is taking fewer shots than Walker, shooting at a higher percentage, and still averaging more points, on a team without as much talent. "

He's averaging more points because he's able to take shots

on a bad team in pressureless and meaningless games. The

Hawks arent even considered a threat so that gives the

hawks players abit of an advange. Plus you factor in that

Reef isn't held accountable for his bad defense, passing..

That's the Hawks problem...To many one players like JT/Reef and that's why neither will ever win jack as a

first option in the NBA. No wonder they can score! They

don't try and the defensive end.

When Walker played for Boston he had to rebound, score,

pass, play alot of positions, was forced to play over 40MPG

which isn't exactually an easy thing. I wonder if Reef

could play 42MPG?

Lets look at some career numbers shall we?

Reef's career numbers

46.7%fg 20.7PPG 8.4RPG 2.9APG

Walkers

41.3%fg 20.3PPG 8.7RPG 4.2APG

Brand

49.4%fg 19.2PPG 10.7RPG 1.9BLK

Jamison

45.5%fg 19.8PPG 7.4RPG 1.8APG

If Reef is worth 14million than all those guys are.

There really isn't much difference....Walker has a

lower FG%, but he ranks higher in assist than all

the other guys listed. All those guys have pretty

much played most of their games. You want to

know what's funny? All those players but walker

has lost and done nothing but lose.

You can say" Oh, if Reef had such and such" but

it's all hearsay. Reef probably can be sucessful

as a second option when playing with a guy like

Paul Pierce. But there isn't any chance to get that

type of player in the next couple of years.

Reefs numbers point to him being a second teir

player. Thats good, but not good enough to build

the team around HIM.

Detroit

Indiana

Lakers

Mavs

Kings

Spurs

Nets

They all have a top tier player.

Dyess

Reef

Brand

Jamison

Walker

Are second tier PF's....YOu can't build your team

around those players. It doesn't work. They all

give about the same production but in different

areas....Brand is the best rebounder and shot blocker

of the bench, Reef is the best scorer of the bunch, Walker

is the best passer of the bench, Dyess is the most athletic

and second best shot blocker of the bunch.

Building a team around a second tier player is hard to

do. O'Neal is really closer to a second tier PF, but he's

the best PF in the east.

The problem with some of you guys is that you only look

at scoring...Blah blah Reefs great in the post...but what

else does he do? He rebounds like a second teir PF and

doesn't play defense....He can't make anything more

than the simple pass, his shot blocking has trailed off

the last few years, his leadership has been questionable

most of his career......And he dissappears in the few

times he plays in an important situation. [censored], he'd rather

pass the ball for no shot than even take a lost shot attempt...Did you see him in that Toronto game?

My point in all this is that Reef is a second teir Forward

while Webber/Duncan/KG/Dirk and possibly Ben Wallace

are the top tier Forwards. You don't build around second

tier players....The Hawks should know, they had a second

teir SG as their best player and didn't make it out of the

second round.

[Plainview1981]

And its wrong for me to say Reef is a good scorer on a

bad team. I don't mean it the what it sounds. Reef looks

like a great player because he's alot better than anyone

else on the teams he's play with. But if you put him on

a team like Dallas he looks like just another good player.

Remember how goot JT looked the year before Reef came?

Remember how JT lead the team in scoring and looked like

he was on the verge of becoming a top SG in the league?

[Diesel]

In reply to:

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Reef looks

like a great player because he's alot better than anyone

else on the teams he's play with. But if you put him on

a team like Dallas he looks like just another good player.

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What are you saying?? That kind of applies to every player. Look at the Lakers NOW.

Kobe, GP, and the Mailman look less dominant than they used to look when they played on less talented teams.

See, what you must understand is that there is a difference between dominance and talent. Tmac has talent. He puts up gobs of points. When Hill was healthy, Tmac still had talent, still put up the points. The only difference is the ease. Some players make it easier for a good player to shine. Shaq for instance, he makes those around him look better. Kobe doesn't have to worry about being the man... Because Shaq is there. Kobe can rest. Kobe can take breaks. Kobe can be an add in. People criticize Tmac for saying that he's tired of always being the man... Well, think about it... How many Superstars can truly stand up and say that they had to do it all by themselves every night with no help...

NOT Jordan.. He had Pippen.

Not Malone... He had Stockton.

Not Shaq... He has had Penny, Kobe, and a whole host of people.

Only 4 guys come to mind:

Tmac, AI, KG, and Vince....

These guys have been placed on a team filled with role players and have been told, go out and just win... That's hard.

That's why I laugh every time I read somebody trying to mention Kobe as being Better than these guys... Kobe has never had to carry a team in his LIFE. Everybody talks about Kobe last year scoring 40 for 3 games and looking good without Shaq. The Lakers went 4-9 without Shaq.... Case Closed.

[Plainview1981]

What I'm saying is that Reef is so much better then the

rest of the team and so his 20/8 looks more much great

than it really is. But notice, Reef's impact last year was less than it was the first year when Dog came in. Reef allowed Dog to take his place as the teams leading scorer...

"Mailman look less dominant than they used to look when they played on less talented teams."

I dissagree...Malone has looked better this year than he

has in a couple of years. Sure his scoring is down, but

he's boarding more than he has the last few years. You

can also tell the difference with Payton because LA is

able to run like they couldn't the last couple of years.

1st option player isn't going to let Dog come in and take

his status from him. You think IVy is going to defer to

Dog? You think Kobe would? Shaq? Duncan? Dirk?

As I've said, Reef is no different than the Walkers/Brands/

Jamisons.....Reef is the best scorer, but he isn't the allround player Brand is....Walker is a really good passer

at his position, be's a poor shooter. There is NOTHING

that Reef has that makes him a top notch PF. Even if

he is was the greatest post player in the league he's still

a flawed passer and defensive player....He's shot blocking

has declined....

20/8/3 as good of numbers they are look...they are second

tier numbers at the PF slot right now...ESP when you consider Reef's below average defense and ball handling

ability.

Shareef is a forced first option. He's the best player on

the team and best scorer...He's a first option right now

because that's the only choice. If Dog was still here I'd

bet he'd still be the leading scorer.

[Plainview1981]

If we could package the lotto pick/Theo/Nailon for

Ray Allen/filler I'd be willing to keep Reef.

Jason Terry

Ray Allen

Boris Diaw

Shareef

Nazr

I'd be willing to keep Reef in this case because I believe

Allen/Reef would make a killer combo.

Brent Barry

Flip Murray

Rashard Lewis

Vlad

Theo

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

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Remember how goot JT looked the year before Reef came?

Remember how JT lead the team in scoring and looked like

he was on the verge of becoming a top SG in the league?

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Yeah, and then they moved him to the point. I never thought JT would become a top SG. That is reserved for the likes of AI, Vince, Kobe, Pierce, and McGrady. I have always felt that he could become a good shooting guard/point guard, but now it is evident that he is playing out of position. He plays a lot better when he doesn't have to initiate the offense. That is part of the reason why the Hawks struggled last year.

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

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If we could package the lotto pick/Theo/Nailon for

Ray Allen/filler I'd be willing to keep Reef.

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I agree with you there, even though I would be hesitant to trade a lottery pick for a player that has had a history of ankle problems, but I understand you would have to give up something to get something. A deal like that makes more sense than blowing up the entire team. I wonder, with the emergence of Flip Murray would the Sonics be willing to make that or a similar trade. Theo is a huge upgrade over Calvin Booth.

TROUBLEMAN

[Diesel]

Maybe just a first that is lottery protected...

Right now, Seattle is at a point where they can drop Allen. They would love to have a guy like Theo come in and sure up their defense.