Which Former Hawks would you allow to come back and retire a Hawk?

[Guest]

Diesel you're doing a bang up job of being completely wrong and then trying to act as if you have a point to make. Joe was never going to Milwaukee and never even had discussions with them. You tried to pass off an article on Michael Redd as if there was some point. Anyone with half a brain can realize that.

[kenkejas]

Al Harrington

[Diesel]

I remember now...and this is why I never thought much of it.  He was responding to a question about the fans booing the team...and I like I said earlier, his response was that the TEAM had a job to do and they weren't too concerned about the lack of support.  This one comment gets blown into "Joe only cares about himself, money, cars, and women."

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

 

The unstated underlying theme is that people hated the contract and that is where the Joe Hate began. If Joe were only getting 80 million in his contract instead of 121, people would have never started hating him so much.

[Guest]

Diesel you're doing a bang up job of being completely wrong and then trying to act as if you have a point to make. Joe was never going to Milwaukee and never even had discussions with them. You tried to pass off an article on Michael Redd as if there was some point. Anyone with half a brain can realize that.

Apparently 33 teams were close to signing Joe including Meccabi tel...:-/

[Diesel]

No, he was never once selected by the PEOPLE so the PEOPLE never felt that what made the team successful was him. No, 14 guys that had to fill a mandatory quota of guards isn't a greater amount of PEOPLE than the ones you are actually asking to give a damn about him donning a Hawks jersey again.

And you are absolutely wrong about no one on the current team moving the needle. Kyle has had more pieces, interviews and publicity done on him than Joe has had his entire tenure in the LEAGUE. He's produced more quotables from a single interview than Joe has from the entirety of the interviews he's ever mumbled through. "The Streak" ring a bell? I don't recall if that got any pub locally or nationally. I can't remember any clamor for Joe to participate in anything on All Star weekend either, certainly remember groans though when he did.

This current group has more nicknames than Joe had dribble moves. You've invented half of them on your own which is still half more than you did for your beloved Joe. By your standard, not one, not two, not three but four were selected to the All Star games. The quietest of the group has a 40 foot tall 3D poster of himself and promotions to spend the day with him and most of this was BEFORE they were on route to franchise history. To say that they don't move the needle is comical and at least they've done it without making any "Worst Of" lists or having to insult the ones that support them the most.

The irony of this is that YOU tried to disown perhaps the greatest Hawk of ALL TIME because he didn't connect with the city but now Joe should because of production? Surely you jest.

 

Since Nique, we have had nobody put in by the people... so that's moot.  I think the coaches vote mean more anyway.  Unless you think Yao Ming, Allen Iverson, and even Kobe deserved every Allstar bid??

Nicknames... you mean Iso Joe?  Joe Cool? Joe Jesus?  Those are national nicknames my friend.

Get your argument together. This current group didn't move the needle coming into the season and by their lack of press coverage, they don't move it now.  Neither did Joe.   My point is that Production is the filter of everything.  This groups production is what got the city behind them. It was production that got the city behind the Hawks in 2008 and 2010 and last year.   We don't have stars that move the needle, but we do have stars that produce.

[Diesel]

Diesel you're doing a bang up job of being completely wrong and then trying to act as if you have a point to make. Joe was never going to Milwaukee and never even had discussions with them. You tried to pass off an article on Michael Redd as if there was some point. Anyone with half a brain can realize that.

 

I like how you ignore the truth and when it's brightly shown in your face, you still resist it.  Go back and read over the thread. Here's more history for you since you lack it..

We originally went after Ray Allen...  Joe was our second choice.

Lebron wanted Ray, Joe, or Redd...  Their new GM could only get Larry Hughes even though Redd was from Ohio.  It wasn't his fault because the Bucks overpaid for Redd after Joe declined to go there and all this was after Allen committed to go back to Seattle even though Allen would have went to a place who had paid him more but Cleveland wouldn't. 

 

Here's the interesting thing. 

 

Seattle GM who outfoxed Cleveland's GM on Ray Allen was Rick Sund.

The Cleveland GM who couldn't get  Redd or Allen was Danny Ferry.

[Guest]

Hey Diesel POST THE EVIDENCE!

You can't because you are talking straight out of your ass.

[Diesel]

Hey Diesel POST THE EVIDENCE!

You can't because you are talking straight out of your ass.

 

 

Joe ask not to match...

Joe wanted to be a hawk and play PG.

Cavs sought both Allen and Redd

 

Ray Allen was wooed by LeBron James, Mike Dunleavy and the Atlanta Hawks for the last five days. In the end, he decided that there was no place like home.

 

Click

Ray Allen was sitting in the Washington, D.C., office of his agent, Lon Babby, on the night of June 30 when the clock struck midnight. That marked the beginning of the free-agency period, and the phone started ringing almost immediately.

First came a call from the Cleveland Cavaliers. Then from the Atlanta Hawks. Then from the Los Angeles Clippers. George Karl left a message saying he was interested in bringing his former player to Denver. A few teams called inquiring about possible sign-and-trade opportunities.

 

 

 

Click here.

 

The stall and Joe remaining faithful to the Hawks.

[Wretch]

The unstated underlying theme is that people hated the contract and that is where the Joe Hate began. If Joe were only getting 80 million in his contract instead of 121, people would have never started hating him so much.

 

How people have turned on Joe is just insane to me.  All those games...all those amazing shots.  Watching him grow with the team.  The way never complained... And how he came here in the first place to be a part of this.  JJ made the choice to come to a 13 win team in a lowly rebuilding situation...from a team with the best record in the NBA.  It wasn't about the money, because Phoenix was prepared to match.  It was about how they handled him the year before and the fact that he was playing 4th wheel behind Nash, Amare, and Marion.  

 

Joe wanted to prove himself...and he CHOSE us.  A lot of teams may not have had the room to sign him, but he had options.  He could have played out the season and become a UFA or he could have just stayed on (which Suns fans regret to the day) and kept that team atop the West.  JOE CHOSE ATLANTA, not the money...and he gave us all he had.

 

There was so much wrong with this team from the 2005 through our current success, but how can we sit here and blame the players who did everything that was asked of them?  Josh...yeah.  We can dump on him.  I can understand bashing Marvin's lack of fire. I can even understand people who weren't impressed with Joe...but calling him a selish bum?  That's just insane to me.

 

Our problems with playoff success were (in order):

 

1) Mike Woodson

2) Billy Knight

3) The A$G

4) Josh "Mid Range Shawty" Smith

5) Me...because anytime I have faith in something, it fails.  When I doubt, I end up looking stupid.  Which just dawned on me...I might need to start doubting our playoff potential.

[Guest]

Joe ask not to match...

Joe wanted to be a hawk and play PG.

Cavs sought both Allen and Redd

 

 

The stall and Joe remaining faithful to the Hawks.

Nothing and I mean N O T H I N G here talks about Joe and Milwaukee.

You just did a complete 180. You said:

 

It's been documented. Joe could have gone to Milwaukee. They wanted him. They had the money. Instead, he waited for us to get over the Belkin holdup and signed with us.

Well where is it Diesel? Oh that is right. There is no documentation. I don't know what you're talking about now.

Edited March 5, 2015 by AHF

[macdaddy]

Am I missing something or is this no different than what any other top NBA free agent does?  Of course there was speculation about him teaming up with other stars (and I'm sure Amare made some calls to JJ), but it was nothing like LeBron/Wade/Bosh-gate.  That's what free agents do right?  Weigh their options?  I don't see how this reflects negatively on JJ.  He was a free agent.  What were we expecting? Of course the money played into it.  Nobody doubts that.  At the same time, Joe didn't make a big fuss about money or his free agency.

 

As far as him not wanting to be the face of the franchise...  I don't know if that's really a conversation.  When he asked Phoenix to let him go, that's EXACTLY what he wanted to be - the centerpiece to a rebuilding franchise.  Those were his words and I could find the articles if I had time.  He wanted a big deal and he wanted to prove himself...again, I don't see how people could hold that against a coveted pro athlete free agent.

 

Once Joe got settled in here, there was less of that talk more of him going out there doing his job.  Face of the franchise or cornerstone or franchise player...I honestly don't think the labels mattered to him at all.  Joe never said much.  He just went out and played his game.  I think the disappointment of our performance as a team, his contract, and Woody-ball, made more of an issue out of Joe than anything.  He did say something about "I don't care what the fans think"...and it may have even been "we don't care what the fans think", but it was just in response to playing the game and trying to win in the face of criticism.  

 

I didn't consider his comments a dis...he was saying he had a job to do and it didn't matter how much he got paid or what the fans said.  Otherwise, we're taking Joe's comments and putting them in the context of how Josh Smith acted the other night.  Two totally different things IMO.

 

Bottom line for me...if you guys want to say Joe wasn't vocal enough or didn't openly take more responsibility for our team I can understand.  A little.  I can also understand the criticism of his game in light of his contract - although, I don't think anybody in here would have turned that money down or have been any more classy and quiet about how it went down (if he was demanding it).  I just don't see a reason to put JJ in the category with the likes of JT, Deke, Josh, and even Doc when it comes to distancing themselves (or being distanced by the fans) from the franchise.

 

I'm not a JJ apologist and I'm not upset that we moved him.  I'm just not going to forget what kind of player he was and how he came to us in the first place.

 

I'm a little behind on this thread but we can disagree on what Joe was and wasn't.   It doesn't change the fact that there are a bunch of fans (myself included) that liked Joe when he was here but don't revere him as a hawk the way we do some others.   Now you may think that's unfair but it is the case.   So is that because there are a bunch of fans who are irrational, or jealous, or dumb?  I'm not sure it matters.   The truth is that more fans have an appreciation for Steve Smith (as an example) than Joe Johnson as hawks players and there is a reason for it.   What the reason is is up for debate but I'm one who thinks that whether or not an athlete has devoted fans is mostly a function of that athletes personality, play, and ability to get fans excited one way or another.  As opposed to fans being ignorant or jealous or unappreciative.   

 

If Joe wanted to be the quiet leader who never complained that's fine.   But it's much harder to inspire people being that guy.  To use an over used saying.  It is what it is.  I also doubt Joe is losing much sleep over it. 

[Diesel]

I'm a little behind on this thread but we can disagree on what Joe was and wasn't.   It doesn't change the fact that there are a bunch of fans (myself included) that liked Joe when he was here but don't revere him as a hawk the way we do some others.   Now you may think that's unfair but it is the case.   So is that because there are a bunch of fans who are irrational, or jealous, or dumb?  I'm not sure it matters.   The truth is that more fans have an appreciation for Steve Smith (as an example) than Joe Johnson as hawks players and there is a reason for it.   What the reason is is up for debate but I'm one who thinks that whether or not an athlete has devoted fans is mostly a function of that athletes personality, play, and ability to get fans excited one way or another.  As opposed to fans being ignorant or jealous or unappreciative.   

 

If Joe wanted to be the quiet leader who never complained that's fine.   But it's much harder to inspire people being that guy.  To use an over used saying.  It is what it is.  I also doubt Joe is losing much sleep over it. 

 

I think you bring up some interesting points.  But let me just say...  Had we not signed Joe in 2005, we may not have a team in Atlanta.

Just think about it...  Marvin was a Bust.  Smoove and chillz were going nowhere.   Even with Harrington.  13 wins.

Had BK dropped the Ball on Joe... the way Belkin wanted to drop the ball, No Free agent would have ever wanted to come to our messed up situation.  I mean, we had already wiffed on guys like Dampiere and KMart.  It would have been worse for us with no ability to bring in Free Agents AND a GM who couldn't draft worth a lick.

They call him Joe Jesus because he saved us.  With the messed up sidekick of JSmoove and Marvin, and the noncoaching of Woody... Joe and company still managed to keep us in the playoffs after 2008.

 

About Smitty.  I was here for all the Smitty years.

Smitty had a better cast of costars.

Smitty had better coaching.

And Smitty couldn't play defense nearly as well.

We like Smitty because we like the fact that Smitty never got more than we thought he deserved.   You can't remember how much Smitty ever made.  Same with Mookie.

However, Joe shares a place with Jon Koncak and Chris Crawford.   Guys who just made too much according to the fans.

Nobody should care that Joe is quiet?  Smitty wasn't outspoken.  Hell, we would love to have KD and he doesn't say ______.  Neither has Duncan.  I mean these quiet Stars are in basketball and many of them we applaud. Atlanta's issue was Joe was the money.

[macdaddy]

I think you bring up some interesting points.  But let me just say...  Had we not signed Joe in 2005, we may not have a team in Atlanta.

Just think about it...  Marvin was a Bust.  Smoove and chillz were going nowhere.   Even with Harrington.  13 wins.

Had BK dropped the Ball on Joe... the way Belkin wanted to drop the ball, No Free agent would have ever wanted to come to our messed up situation.  I mean, we had already wiffed on guys like Dampiere and KMart.  It would have been worse for us with no ability to bring in Free Agents AND a GM who couldn't draft worth a lick.

They call him Joe Jesus because he saved us.  With the messed up sidekick of JSmoove and Marvin, and the noncoaching of Woody... Joe and company still managed to keep us in the playoffs after 2008.

 

About Smitty.  I was here for all the Smitty years.

Smitty had a better cast of costars.

Smitty had better coaching.

And Smitty couldn't play defense nearly as well.

We like Smitty because we like the fact that Smitty never got more than we thought he deserved.   You can't remember how much Smitty ever made.  Same with Mookie.

However, Joe shares a place with Jon Koncak and Chris Crawford.   Guys who just made too much according to the fans.

Nobody should care that Joe is quiet?  Smitty wasn't outspoken.  Hell, we would love to have KD and he doesn't say ______.  Neither has Duncan.  I mean these quiet Stars are in basketball and many of them we applaud. Atlanta's issue was Joe was the money.

 

I remember when Smitty got his contract with the Hawks.  It was huge for the time.   I also remember him giving millions, a huge chunk of his pay to michigan state.   I remember that because my dad, who barely knew the name of any hawk player past or present, talked to me about it and how great it was.   Smitty was a leader, a guy obviously not as physically gifted but could hold his own against MJ.  You can say we hold Joe's contract against him but I don't believe that.  When Smitty was traded the local news went to his house to interview him and he was really disappointed but there he was happy to talk to the local news guy AT HIS HOUSE.  He really wanted another shot as a hawk with mookie, deke.   

 

Had Joe not come here your scenario is no more likely or ludicrous than the possibility that we drafted some different guys, made some different moves and won a championship because of it.   It's all impossible to say.   I'm happy he was a hawk and i was happy when we traded him.  It was time.  And maybe that's what get's held against Joe.   Smitty was gone too soon and Joe (and Josh) should have been gone sooner.       

[AHF]

Well where is it Diesel? Oh that is right. There is no documentation. I don't know what you're talking about now.

 

No need to get personal.  Make your point and keep on moving!

[macdaddy]

It'd be fun to have a 'Favorite Hawk of the post Nique era'   I feel that's different than who'd you want back.

[Admin]

It'd be fun to have a 'Favorite Hawk of the post Nique era'   I feel that's different than who'd you want back.

 

Post-Nique pre-modern era

Mookie

 

Modern era

Horford or Zaza. For a while it would have been Smoove but he lost me the last couple of years here. 

[macdaddy]

Post-Nique pre-modern era

Mookie

 

Modern era

Horford or Zaza. For a while it would have been Smoove but he lost me the last couple of years here. 

 

Yeah Mookie was awesome.  Sucks that his life has fallen apart.   I was a big Smitty fan too.   Horford is the greatest but I have no prespective on the current hawks.  I have a different favorite every night.  

[Diesel]

I remember when Smitty got his contract with the Hawks.  It was huge for the time.   I also remember him giving millions, a huge chunk of his pay to michigan state.   I remember that because my dad, who barely knew the name of any hawk player past or present, talked to me about it and how great it was.   Smitty was a leader, a guy obviously not as physically gifted but could hold his own against MJ.  You can say we hold Joe's contract against him but I don't believe that.  When Smitty was traded the local news went to his house to interview him and he was really disappointed but there he was happy to talk to the local news guy AT HIS HOUSE.  He really wanted another shot as a hawk with mookie, deke.   

 

Had Joe not come here your scenario is no more likely or ludicrous than the possibility that we drafted some different guys, made some different moves and won a championship because of it.   It's all impossible to say.   I'm happy he was a hawk and i was happy when we traded him.  It was time.  And maybe that's what get's held against Joe.   Smitty was gone too soon and Joe (and Josh) should have been gone sooner.       

 

Mac... Where have you been living??  Before we got Joe, it was hard to bringin a FA.  IF Belkin would have had his way and we lost Joe, what makes you think it would have been easier for us to get a FA...  Let me tell you what would have happened...

We would have had another busted year with Josh, Josh, Marvin, and Al.  We would have overpaid Al to stay.  We would have gone to the lottery several times and probably picked guys like Rudy Gay.  Another losing season.   Overpaid to keep Smoove.  Another losing season.  Then after Seattle lost the thunder and were looking for a franchise to take...or when OKC was looking for a franchise to take or when NO was looking for a franchise to take. Well, you're right, we're landlocked to Atlanta but there would be no draw for fans to come out to see us.   The 2008 playoffs and the 2010 playoffs kept us afloat.  If not for them, we would have been a perennial loser.

[macdaddy]

Mac... Where have you been living??  Before we got Joe, it was hard to bringin a FA.  IF Belkin would have had his way and we lost Joe, what makes you think it would have been easier for us to get a FA...  Let me tell you what would have happened...

We would have had another busted year with Josh, Josh, Marvin, and Al.  We would have overpaid Al to stay.  We would have gone to the lottery several times and probably picked guys like Rudy Gay.  Another losing season.   Overpaid to keep Smoove.  Another losing season.  Then after Seattle lost the thunder and were looking for a franchise to take...or when OKC was looking for a franchise to take or when NO was looking for a franchise to take. Well, you're right, we're landlocked to Atlanta but there would be no draw for fans to come out to see us.   The 2008 playoffs and the 2010 playoffs kept us afloat.  If not for them, we would have been a perennial loser.

 

Just because you think it doesn't make it true.  I was here too and I'm also glad we signed Joe, but acting like he saved the franchise from certain demise?   come on.  That's fantasy land.

[Diesel]

Post-Nique pre-modern era

Mookie

 

Modern era

Horford or Zaza. For a while it would have been Smoove but he lost me the last couple of years here. 

 

Post-Nique pre-modern era:

Deke (no, no, no) or Shareef.

 

Modern Era

Joe

 

Favorite Journeyman...

Jamal. with a strong nod to Tyrone Lou

 

Favorite Foriegn Player...

Zaza ...with a strong nod to Hanno Mottola

 

Favorite Bench Rider...

Enis Whatley  with strong nods to Mario West and Ivano Newbill and Ira Newble.

 

Favorite Hawks Draft pick...

Jefferson Teague.

 

Favorite  Hawks trade...

Augmon to Detroit for two draft picks.