Should Horford Retire a Hawk?

[Diesel]

As we all know, decisions are being made this offseason concerning DMC and Sap.  You may feel one way or another, but here's the bottom line when it comes to this team.

 

Horf.

 

Should Horf retire as an Atlanta Hawk.  His contract comes around next year and it will probably be his last productive contract.  The question is should he be a Hawk for life?  Believe it or not, as I see it, that will dictate how we move this offseason.

 

My thinking Sap can work with any true Big.   Like Gasol/Sap would be a good matchup.  Lopez Sap would be good also.

Horf would need a PF who can go inside and get Boards (if we don't have sap).  That's why we talk about LA and Monroe so much.  Horf is a standstill face up midrange shooter on offense.  To be effective, he needs a formidable player in the post or a guy who can play far out and even be a three point threat (like Sap was).

It would make no sense to Duplicate Al by bringing in another midrange shooter who doesn't do the dirty work in the lowpost.  Moreover, it makes no sense pushing Al to the 4 because he loses all of his speed advantages and he doesn't have a true goto move.

 

Now, let's take the White Elephant and point him out.

 

Horf is undersized against a few of the bigs we encounter.  I was watching last night's game and how Mozgov was Dunking on the Warriors but how Bogut was trying to hold his own against the attack (and didn't do that well but wasn't bad). If Horf has to matchup with Mozgov (who seems to be getting better) I don't see him winning the matchup.  Nor do I see him handling Lopez either.  So do we lock up Horf for the next 6 years and call him a career Hawk or do we look for somebody who can handle these bigs.  Many people point to the coming of Walter and say that is the answer.  I don't know. Maybe in 3 years, but our window is not that large.

 

Bottom line.

 

IS Horf a Hawks Lifer?

[macdaddy]

Yes.  Contrary to popular opinion around here, we struggled in the playoffs because we couldn't handle the talented perimeter players of the other teams not because we were undersized.  When we have the offense running the way it's supposed to then Horford is uniquely talented for this team.

[NBASupes]

Yes, 

 

I read your post. It was one starred. Diesel, where do you get your opinions from? 

Edited June 5, 2015 by nbasupes40retired

[Diesel]

Yes.  Contrary to popular opinion around here, we struggled in the playoffs because we couldn't handle the talented perimeter players of the other teams not because we were undersized.  When we have the offense running the way it's supposed to then Horford is uniquely talented for this team.

 

No, I think if nothing else, our series and last night shows you that you have to be able to get rebounds if you want to contend.  The way Tristan Thompson dominated the rebounds in our series.  They averaged 52 rpg to our 39.  That's a difference of 13 rebounds.  That's 13 more possessions a game.

Say it's the shooters that killed us.  I say nah.   When a team averaged 13.5 offensive Boards per game.  That's 13.5 second attempts they get... we lose at the boards.  And when we go farther and see that Horf got us 4.8 measly rebounds per game.  Yes, Size is the issue.

Kent Bazemore collected more rebounds than Horf!

 

So, you can give this thread 1 star all you like SUPES.... but the truth is that you're closing your eyes to the truth and depending on what we do this summer, this truth may be repeated.

[Diesel]

Back to the question at hand....

 

Should Horf retire as a Hawk?

[macdaddy]

No, I think if nothing else, our series and last night shows you that you have to be able to get rebounds if you want to contend.  The way Tristan Thompson dominated the rebounds in our series.  They averaged 52 rpg to our 39.  That's a difference of 13 rebounds.  That's 13 more possessions a game.

Say it's the shooters that killed us.  I say nah.   When a team averaged 13.5 offensive Boards per game.  That's 13.5 second attempts they get... we lose at the boards.  And when we go farther and see that Horf got us 4.8 measly rebounds per game.  Yes, Size is the issue.

Kent Bazemore collected more rebounds than Horf!

 

So, you can give this thread 1 star all you like SUPES.... but the truth is that you're closing your eyes to the truth and depending on what we do this summer, this truth may be repeated.

 

 

You do remember Al only played in the first half of game 3?   Nets and Wiz had big size advantages but didn't kill us on the boards the way the cavs did.   Atlanta is playing a team game.  The team flat crashed physically and mentally against the Cavs.  If size is that huge of an issue for us then this season was an over achievement for the ages.  

 

Some have been beating this drum about Horford being undersized for a decade while 3 coaches and 4 gms have not worried about it because at the end of the day he's a better player than Gortat, Nene, and 90% of the other tall guys in the nba. 

Back to the question at hand....

 

Should Horf retire as a Hawk?

 

Why not?

[Diesel]

You do remember Al only played in the first half of game 3?   Nets and Wiz had big size advantages but didn't kill us on the boards the way the cavs did.   Atlanta is playing a team game.  The team flat crashed physically and mentally against the Cavs.  If size is that huge of an issue for us then this season was an over achievement for the ages.  

 

Some have been beating this drum about Horford being undersized for a decade while 3 coaches and 4 gms have not worried about it because at the end of the day he's a better player than Gortat, Nene, and 90% of the other tall guys in the nba. 

 

Why not?

 

I'm not saying that Horf is undersized is that bad of a deal.  He is undersized but we have learned to play with that and he has played better than his size most of the time.  However, all of those years that Horf has been undersized, we have always stated that he has a visible disadvantage when playing the big bigs.   That was not a problem because after shaq left, the big bigs were non-existent... but they are now coming back.   Gortat is really Horf's size.  Nene is only 1 inch taller than Horf.  But historically, Horf struggles with the bigger guys.  Mozgov gave a perfect example.   Moreover, this years Hawks played as though we didn't care about rebounds.  That's fine if you're nailing your shots and making the defense open up so that you have a shot at getting boards, but when you're not nailing shots and the defense is able to contract, we lose in a very bad way.

 

My only think with Horf is that we have to know that his next contract won't be a value contract.  With the new TV money, Horf is going to expect the max.  I just wanted to know who here thinks that he's worth the max going forward and finishing as a Hawk and if so, what should we look for this offseason?

[Jody23]

It depends. Whatever helps the Hawks get closer to winning a title to me is the correct answer. If you can improve the team via a trade of Horford, then why wouldn't you do it? The Hawks have entertained trade offers for him before and I don't doubt new management will again. Doesn't mean they will and should deal him though. And no, Horford is not a max player. No one player on the team is.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Jody23

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Should he retire as a Hawk? Yes.

Will he WANT to retire as a Hawk, if he has to continue to play center? That may be a different story.

As for rebounding, Bud frequently talked about how important it was for the guards to rebound. With our bigs routinely away from the rim guarding people, Bud stressed guard rebounding ( ala what Woody used to talk about ).

Sefolosha on a per 36 minute basis, led the league in wing rebounding this season. We were a whopping 43 - 9 with him in the lineup ... 17 - 13 when he wasn't. The absence of his perimeter defense, and especially his rebounding, killed us in the postseason.

So if we're going to continue to trot out a versatile, but undersized frontline, we have to have guards and wings who can rebound at an almost elite level at their position.

[Diesel]

My contention is to keep things as they are and try to bring in a guy like Chandler or Mozgov on a value contract.

 

I think having that real Big to back up Horf would make our team unbeatable.

No... Antić is not a good real big because he doesn't rebound or defend or play in the low post well enough.

[nonono]

I support the hawks, players come and go...that said, damn I'd be upset if Horford didn't retire a Hawk

[macdaddy]

[thescout5]

My contention is to keep things as they are and try to bring in a guy like Chandler or Mozgov on a value contract.

 

I think having that real Big to back up Horf would make our team unbeatable.

No... Antić is not a good real big because he doesn't rebound or defend or play in the low post well enough.

I agree Diesel only keep Horford if you can put him at power forward and add a big at center. The guard with Thabo would have been better rebounding but the brunt of rebounds come from your bigs. The Hawks were clearly outsized by the Cavs and even a healthy Hawks team would not be able to keep up. We have had this issue for so long t gets to be tiring discussing the same thing each year. 

 

The Hawks were able to beat most teams this year but if you want the ring you better rebound. The Hawks as currently constructed have maxed out. Golden State and the Cavs are alot better and next year there probably will be another team that surprises so the competition will get much tougher. I think the Hawks could get better but after that January run the team seemed to have come back to earth. Next year also is a bad year to get any bigs unless you get Durant which everyone will gun for gettimg him. This would be the bst time to get a big whether Mozgov,Monroe or Gasol. I still can't believe the Cavs gave 2 first rounders which probably will be low first rounders for Mozgov, what a steal. 

[Guest]

Almnesty!

[macdaddy]

I agree Diesel only keep Horford if you can put him at power forward and add a big at center. The guard with Thabo would have been better rebounding but the brunt of rebounds come from your bigs. The Hawks were clearly outsized by the Cavs and even a healthy Hawks team would not be able to keep up. We have had this issue for so long t gets to be tiring discussing the same thing each year. 

 

The Hawks were able to beat most teams this year but if you want the ring you better rebound. The Hawks as currently constructed have maxed out. Golden State and the Cavs are alot better and next year there probably will be another team that surprises so the competition will get much tougher. I think the Hawks could get better but after that January run the team seemed to have come back to earth. Next year also is a bad year to get any bigs unless you get Durant which everyone will gun for gettimg him. This would be the bst time to get a big whether Mozgov,Monroe or Gasol. I still can't believe the Cavs gave 2 first rounders which probably will be low first rounders for Mozgov, what a steal. 

 

I don't necessarily agree that a starting frontcourt of Horford, Mozgov is the way to go but you bring up something that i've been thinking about since it happened.  The Cavs were pretty good but not great.  Then they went out and added Mozgov, JR, and Shump.  Those are all guys that could have helped us tremendously and they added all three of them.   We dumped our 1st round guy in hopes of a Ray Allen comeback.   And just to make this post touch on every possible issue, I wonder if we'd had our actual GM working at the trade deadline if one of those guys that the Cavs grabbed wouldn't have ended up in Atlanta.

[Guest]

If we are moving Horford to the 4 and bringing in a bigger 5 to rebound and rim protect we will need to have better scoring from the SG AND SF positions(someone who can hanle the ball effectively to score or facilitate the offense) because I don't think Al can carry the offensively load. He'll be bigger than most PFs but his post game is lacking. His ability to put the ball on the floor and get by centers was a big advantage which he doesn't take advantage of enough, will he have the same success against more agile PFs when they can also have center help?

More questions than answers.

[yungsta]

If we are moving Horford to the 4 and bringing in a bigger 5 to rebound and rim protect we will need to have better scoring from the SG AND SF positions(someone who can hanle the ball effectively to score or facilitate the offense) because I don't think Al can carry the offensively load. He'll be bigger than most PFs but his post game is lacking. His ability to put the ball on the floor and get by centers was a big advantage which he doesn't take advantage of enough, will he have the same success against more agile PFs when they can also have center help?

More questions than answers.

After the cleveland series it was a given that we needed wing players who are more talented offensively regardless if AL is moved to the PF or not.

[Peoriabird]

h-ll yes!

[ATLHawks3]

I hope so. I don't want to imagine Horford in another jersey.

[Diesel]

I agree Diesel only keep Horford if you can put him at power forward and add a big at center. The guard with Thabo would have been better rebounding but the brunt of rebounds come from your bigs. The Hawks were clearly outsized by the Cavs and even a healthy Hawks team would not be able to keep up. We have had this issue for so long t gets to be tiring discussing the same thing each year. 

 

The Hawks were able to beat most teams this year but if you want the ring you better rebound. The Hawks as currently constructed have maxed out. Golden State and the Cavs are alot better and next year there probably will be another team that surprises so the competition will get much tougher. I think the Hawks could get better but after that January run the team seemed to have come back to earth. Next year also is a bad year to get any bigs unless you get Durant which everyone will gun for gettimg him. This would be the bst time to get a big whether Mozgov,Monroe or Gasol. I still can't believe the Cavs gave 2 first rounders which probably will be low first rounders for Mozgov, what a steal. 

 

This is more topic for discussion.  I don't see Horf as a PF either.

I would bring in a big to split time with Horf at the C position and play Horf at the 4 a little.

For instance, if Lebron is playing 4, do you see Horf keeping up with him?  How about KD? 

 

I think his strength is at the 5, when he can use his midrange game to score over 5s who are plastered to the paint.  Against a mobile 4, I think Horf is nullified on offense and will get torched on Defense.