Getting rid of Teague for Dennis' Sake.

[Diesel]

 

 

For the last two years, I have been reading post after post from the same guys about getting rid of Teague so that we can start Dennis.   I try to understand this.  I know that we have a faction that are from Germany and therefore naturally fans of Dennis.   However, the only thing that I see in Dennis is that he's a flashy guy that's not apologetic about shooting his team out of the game.   This is a trait that is not easily changed.  Some of you think that if you made Dennis the starter that he will all the sudden begin playing differently or that he will grow out of his me first ways.  I'm very doubtful.  As a fan of basketball since Fast Eddie Johnson, I can say that I have rarely seen a player change his character(basketball).  IN the words of Deny Green... They are who we thought they are.  I would love to hear something that can convince otherwise.

 

 

[rd79]

Everybody crying for a star or at least a player who isn't scared to take the last shot. If you get the latter he is labeled "me first"

Edited February 22, 2016 by rd79

[hawkman]

41 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

 

For the last two years, I have been reading post after post from the same guys about getting rid of Teague so that we can start Dennis.   I try to understand this.  I know that we have a faction that are from Germany and therefore naturally fans of Dennis.   However, the only thing that I see in Dennis is that he's a flashy guy that's not apologetic about shooting his team out of the game.   This is a trait that is not easily changed.  Some of you think that if you made Dennis the starter that he will all the sudden begin playing differently or that he will grow out of his me first ways.  I'm very doubtful.  As a fan of basketball since Fast Eddie Johnson, I can say that I have rarely seen a player change his character(basketball).  IN the words of Deny Green... They are who we thought they are.  I would love to hear something that can convince otherwise.

 

 

I agree on not getting rid of Teague just to start Dennis. I remember when people couldn't wait to get rid of Al Harrington so Marvin could start. They said Harrington was holding him back. It turned out the only one holding Marvin back was Marvin.  There's plenty of minutes at PG to go around. Don't rush into a poor decision.

[AHF]

There is no reason to get rid of Teague simply to clear the decks for Dennis but I like what I've seen from Dennis.  I think he will absolutely be a quality starting PG in the NBA.  Teague has had one season above "quality starting PG" level (last year) and that season sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of his career (i.e., I'm not ready to say that last year was his baseline).  So I understand shopping each of them around looking for a chance to upgrade a roster that lacks starting quality wings.

[Guest]

It's less about just letting Dennis start. It's more about UPGRADING positions of weakness and who would bring the most value back in a trade.

There's a reason BudCox was OK with trading Teague and passed when the offers weren't sufficient.

I've seen enough of Dennis to know that he can start and be effective. He will play brilliantly sometimes and then have some head scratching boneheaded mistakes.

[macdaddy]

39 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's less about just letting Dennis start. It's more about UPGRADING positions of weakness and who would bring the most value back in a trade.

There's a reason BudCox was OK with trading Teague and passed when the offers weren't sufficient.

I've seen enough of Dennis to know that he can start and be effective. He will play brilliantly sometimes and then have some head scratching boneheaded mistakes.

Exactly!   And Dennis' inconsistency isn't much different than Teague's.   Why have two starting caliber PGs when you have zero starting caliber 2s or 3s and zero nba bigs on the bench.

[kurupt]

Do you have anything to substantiate your claims (shooting too much, me first attitude etc.), Diesel?

Per 36 Minutes/100 possessions, Dennis takes about 1 more shot than Jeff Teague does. Considering he is the main scoring threat off the bench and plays significant minutes together with very limited offensive players like Splitter/Muscala, Sefolosha etc., I consider that to be normal or maybe even fewer shots than expected. He also is among the league leaders in AST%  and I can barely remember any play where does not pass to a player that is open / more open than himself and takes a shot instead. Again, this is playing with very limited personel besides him for large portions of the playing time he gets.

And for me, the eye-test confirms these statistics.

Now, I never advocated for getting rid of Teague, but I think the Hawks do need to make a decision in the offseason. Schröder is too good to stay on the bench and, more importantly, he will not be satisfied staying on the bench. Especially when you could argue that he is surpassing Teague this season while being 5 years younger. So either you trade Teague or Schröder in the offseason or you risk losing a valuable asset for nothing.

Per 36 minute and advanced stats for:

Schröder http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/schrode01.html#all_per_minute

Teague http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/teaguje01.html#all_per_minute

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, kurupt said:

Do you have anything to substantiate your claims (shooting too much, me first attitude etc.), Diesel?

Per 36 Minutes/100 possessions, Dennis takes about 1 more shot than Jeff Teague does. Considering he is the main scoring threat off the bench and plays significant minutes together with very limited offensive players like Splitter/Muscala, Sefolosha etc., I consider that to be normal or maybe even fewer shots than expected. He also is among the league leaders in AST%  and I can barely remember any play where does not pass to a player that is open / more open than himself and takes a shot instead. Again, this is playing with very limited personel besides him for large portions of the playing time he gets.

And for me, the eye-test confirms these statistics.

Now, I never advocated for getting rid of Teague, but I think the Hawks do need to make a decision in the offseason. Schröder is too good to stay on the bench and, more importantly, he will not be satisfied staying on the bench. Especially when you could argue that he is surpassing Teague this season while being 5 years younger. So either you trade Teague or Schröder in the offseason or you risk losing a valuable asset for nothing.

Per 36 minute and advanced stats for:

Schröder http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/schrode01.html#all_per_minute

Teague http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/teaguje01.html#all_per_minute

 

if i had to point out one thing, he shoots 7.4 3s per 100 possessions @ 34%.

[Lurker]

Someone that is posting a 36% AST ratio isn't being selfish...

[Sarcatic1]

I'm a big fan of Jeff but its clear that Dennis is the future pg of this team. He seems to be finally getting "it" Dude is young so of course he is going to have those head scratching moments but he will be fine

[Carter99]

Just look at the +/- of the Team with Schröder and Teague. Its obvious he should be handed the Keys now or atleast get the same time as Teague.

Dont forget that Schröder is 22. He is the same Age as some Rookies that just came out of college and already has nearly 3 NBA Seasons under his belt.

Schröder is the future of this Team.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Carter99 said:

Just look at the +/- of the Team with Schröder and Teague. Its obvious he should be handed the Keys now or atleast get the same time as Teague.

Dont forget that Schröder is 22. He is the same Age as some Rookies that just came out of college and already has nearly 3 NBA Seasons under his belt.

Schröder is the future of this Team.

 

If we went by +/- stats,   Our starting five would be:

Dennis, THJr, Korver, Scott, and Splitter  and Paul and Thabo would never play.

 

 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, Sarcatic1 said:

I'm a big fan of Jeff but its clear that Dennis is the future pg of this team. He seems to be finally getting "it" Dude is young so of course he is going to have those head scratching moments but he will be fine

I don't think he should be the future.   In fact, if we got rid of Teague, I would want to get rid of Dennis the next day.

 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think he should be the future.   In fact, if we got rid of Teague, I would want to get rid of Dennis the next day.

 

Good thing you aren't the GM.

[DS17Fanboy]

vor 17 Stunden, macdaddy sagte:

Exactly!   And Dennis' inconsistency isn't much different than Teague's.   Why have two starting caliber PGs when you have zero starting caliber 2s or 3s and zero nba bigs on the bench.

There is different types of "inconsistency" and a starting vet PG with the keys to the team handed to him should be held to a much higher standard when it comes to this. Thats the whole point of the argument.

[macdaddy]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't think he should be the future.   In fact, if we got rid of Teague, I would want to get rid of Dennis the next day.

 

What the hell?   I love Teague but Dennis is damn good.   Hell he's one of the main reasons we even made it a game against GS.   His D is much better than Teague's and he's a better distributor.   The rest of the league would be dying to have him and make him their starting PG.

[JackB1]

At least Schröder plays hard every night, whereas Teague has to be in the mood.  I'm tired of Teague's lack of aggressive play and am ready to see what Dennis can do as a starter. 

 

[DS17Fanboy]

vor 2 Stunden, Diesel sagte:

 

If we went by +/- stats,   Our starting five would be:

Dennis, THJr, Korver, Scott, and Splitter  and Paul and Thabo would never play.

 

 

Maybe thats because Dennis is leading the pack. None of those other bench-player stand out very much on their own. Yet Hawks bench scores opposing benches out night after night.

[Lurker]

Here's some points from the guy that used to be anti DS over at realgm that I bet @Diesel will absolutely HATE (from last night's game):

Quote

Teague had some decent numbers but lets look at the facts:
missed 4 straight FT

Couldnt get the offense going early and late in the half. Seriously I DVRed the game ill go back and look , I can remember at least 5-6 possessions that he failed to make a DECISIVE MOVE and put the Hawks in a 5 sec or less shot clock situation outside the 3pt line.

Teague couldnt make up his mind, he was hesitant. Making a move to the hole and pulling it back out, using a screen and putting the big in an awkward angle because he couldnt decided to GO or PASS. Ive seen this A LOT this year. Teague cant decide to be aggressive or try and run the offense. Last year he BLEW by curry, this year, curry was all over him. Something is different.

DS outplayed TEAGUE IMO. Not because of points or runs or +/-, but because (and ive said this before) his PNR game is MUCH BETTER than Teagues. He puts the rolling big into a MUCH better position to catch a much better pass. He also isnt afraid to take the shot, he goes AT Curry, he was physical with him, he fouled him, he has that cocky swagger Teague just doesnt have. I thought at times last night it didnt look like Teague wanted to be out there.

DS is a better finisher at the rim (last night) and a better jump shooter (HE SHOOTS A REAL JUMPER).

Did DS make mistakes? yes, the 45 ft 3pointer heat check was a BAD SHOT. He still needs to learn that when you make 2 3s in a row, sometimes the way to attack is to get a teammate another great shot, not take it yourself. Hes still learning that. Curry is amazing at that, he hits back to back 3s, then he penetrates and finds someone on the wing or makes a great pass. That is REALLY backbreaking because the team is thinking JUST STOP HIM JUST STOP HIM and then he beats you with a pass or assist to another teammate. DS needs to learn that.

Quote

Im sorry but this is not the same Teague. Teague didnt play well last night, hes good enough to get points, hes good enough to get some shots and points, but last night he was PASSIVE. last night he couldnt decide if he wanted to pass or shoot. he was timid. Im sorry theres no other way to put it.

Dennis was AGGRESSIVE. Dennis took it to their guards. Horford took it to Speights. Teague got frustrated and made some bad turnovers, bad passes.

 

And another point made by someone else in the thread:

 

Quote

We lost by 10 and here is why and who lost us the game. Teague with 4-5 mins left...Gives up a Klay 3pt then gives up a easy layup to Klay and then give up a 3pt to Curry....8pts....