Braves about to show tonight during draft what tanking can do for you.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Which is WHY i said the Braves front office figured the only way to really build would be to tank and build from within.   Liberty Media isnt about to drop 200 million into payroll like the Yankees , Dodgers. etc.    Which brings me to the Hawks.   They have to prioritize the draft and other options because  i dont think  Ressler will go anywhere near a luxury tax to max out that roster.

Ressler can't decide to just jump into the luxury.  He is limited by what the CBA allows. 

Now if he doesn't want to EXCEED the cap, then that's and entirely different story.

Understand, the only way we can exceed the cap this season is by resigning our own players.  If we release all our free agents and sign new ones we still won't be able to exceed the cap. Not because Ressler won't but because he CAN'T.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

lol.  You had to bring all that up.  Lets just say they the least corrupt, of the corrupt. 

"Least" corrupt?  *cough* Black Sox *cough*

[AHF]

56 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

My bad. Mods can move it.

Thanks for moving this, Lethal.  I had some shoppin to do with my boys at the mart.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

lol.  You had to bring all that up.  Lets just say they the least corrupt, of the corrupt. 

I don't know if I can say that and keep a straight face. They've had their own share of scandals that have affected the outcome of games- corked bats, pine tar, vaseline - need I go on. Lol.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

lol.  You had to bring all that up.  Lets just say they the least corrupt, of the corrupt. 

[Hawkmoor]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

If the draftees come from college, they'll need 1-2 years. High school or international, it is 3-4 years though as people are saying.

I'm already not liking what I'm hearing as well. It sounds like more high school pitchers.

Another pitcher?  They better be looking at another David Justice or Chipper Jones. I know they trying to throw 100 pitchers out there and find 2 or more Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux, but sooner or later, they gonna have to address their hitting.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Hawkmoor]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ressler can't decide to just jump into the luxury.  He is limited by what the CBA allows. 

Now if he doesn't want to EXCEED the cap, then that's and entirely different story.

Understand, the only way we can exceed the cap this season is by resigning our own players.  If we release all our free agents and sign new ones we still won't be able to exceed the cap. Not because Ressler won't but because he CAN'T.

Ok. Im not a expert by far on the CBA, but im trying to figure out how Miami can clean house and get all that loot they had, and Cleveland keeps doing, Golden State gonna do, Oklahoma City, etc. etc.  Why is it the Hawks always the team that cant sign anybody because they dont wanna come here, or, the Hawks cant pay them?

[Hawkmoor]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't know if I can say that and keep a straight face. They've had their own share of scandals that have affected the outcome of games- corked bats, pine tar, vaseline - need I go on. Lol.

But thats player specific stuff. All this is player specific stuff and the players got punished. I knew i would get back on track, lol.   The NBA, now, thats different.   The NBA front office and referees are shaping how the league is built and officiated.   There has NEVER to my knowledge been any hint of a major league umpire shaping the outcome of a game. Sure, you got crazy strike zones at times, but if they call a high strike on one team, they call it one the other after its pointed out.  They try, on the surface anyway, to correct inconsistent strike zones.  I WILL say that sometimes umpires have it in for a player and will call anything near the strike zone a strike, but i dont believe its coming down from league office.

Had this been Bryce Harper doing this, he wouldve been suspended. Bryce been suspended several times i believe, and he is considered the top player in baseball. 

 

[AHF]

There is no way you can say that steroids were a player specific thing.  That was a culture condoned from the very top of baseball.  They were complicit in fostering and allowing rampant PED use until it became clear that the days of Sosa / McGwire promotions were over.

[Lurker]

11 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Ok. Im not a expert by far on the CBA, but im trying to figure out how Miami can clean house and get all that loot they had, and Cleveland keeps doing, Golden State gonna do, Oklahoma City, etc. etc.  Why is it the Hawks always the team that cant sign anybody because they dont wanna come here, or, the Hawks cant pay them?

Let me try one more time...

You CAN exceed the cap. But the only way in which you can, is via bird rights on your players. It doesn't count against your cap if you sign players that have the bird rights.

Last year, the Hawks were out on top level free agency immediately because they only had early bird on Millsap and Carroll. Once they signed one of those players, it was going to take up most of the rest of their money.

THIS YEAR, the Hawks could technically let Kent Bazemore walk, and sign Al Horford and have it not count against them cap wise, leaving them plenty of money to sign a max level free agent and one other good free agent comfortably.

THING IS: I doubt anyone wants to come that is max level.

But those teams that you quoted are signing the players they want to 3-4 year deals to gain full bird rights.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Lurker

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

THIS YEAR, the Hawks could technically let Kent Bazemore walk, and sign Al Horford and have it not count against them cap wise, leaving them plenty of money to sign a max level free agent and one other good free agent comfortably.

To be slightly more specific, they can use Horford's cap hold instead of his actual salary and have only that count against the cap while they sign others and then go over the cap to resign him at a much higher number than his cap hold.

[Hawkmoor]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Let me try one more time...

You CAN exceed the cap. But the only way in which you can, is via bird rights on your players. It doesn't count against your cap if you sign players that have the bird rights.

Last year, the Hawks were out on top level free agency immediately because they only had early bird on Millsap and Carroll. Once they signed one of those players, it was going to take up most of the rest of their money.

THIS YEAR, the Hawks could technically let Kent Bazemore walk, and sign Al Horford and have it not count against them cap wise, leaving them plenty of money to sign a max level free agent and one other good free agent comfortably.

Ok.  What i dont get by what you said is the fact you said that if you have Bird rights on a player, you can sign him and exceed the cap. If the Hawks had Bird on Millsap and Carroll, and signing Bird right players dont count agains the cap, then why couldnt they have signed another big contract? Is early Bird, different than regular Bird or is there such a thing?  I know you know what  you talking about, im jus lost as to how that crap works.

Do they have Bird on Horford? I dont get this CBA crap at all. Too convulated and it still doesnt explain to me how other teams always seem to get around it, but the Hawks cant.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Hawkmoor]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

There is no way you can say that steroids were a player specific thing.  That was a culture condoned from the very top of baseball.  They were complicit in fostering and allowing rampant PED use until it became clear that the days of Sosa / McGwire promotions were over.

What im saying is, the league didnt TELL them to go out and do steroids, they just ignored it.  Wrong is wrong like you ponted out, but i dont believe they activity look for crap to exploit the game. The NBA on the other hand, they KEEP getting questioned by people year after year, about the integrity of the league front office in having direct manipulations in player movement, officiating, etc. etc.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Hawkmoor said:

Ok.  What i dont get by what you said is the fact you said that if you have Bird rights on a player, you can sign him and exceed the cap. If the Hawks had Bird on Millsap and Carroll, and signing Bird right players dont count agains the cap, then why couldnt they have signed another big contract? Is early Bird, different than regular Bird or is there such a thing?  I know you know what  you talking about, im jus lost as to how that crap works.

Do they have Bird on Horford? I dont get this CBA crap at all. Too convulated and it still doesnt explain to me how other teams always seem to get around it, but the Hawks cant.

There is a difference with early bird as it was a lower money than what Millsap or Carroll wanted. With early bird, if you can't sign them to the money in their caphold, you have to use cap space, and they weren't going to be able to with either of them. If you can use cap holds to sign players, you have an endless cap, and that is what Cleveland is doing.

They have full bird on Horford and won't have to use cap space, so as I said, they have plenty of money in this free agency. They just aren't going to be able to use it I bet. They'll do their due diligence on players like Durant and Batum, but I bet they'll be turned down.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

Thanks for moving this, Lethal.  I had some shoppin to do with my boys at the mart.

Niiiice

[Hawkmoor]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There is a difference with early bird as it was a lower money than what Millsap or Carroll wanted. With early bird, if you can't sign them to the money in their caphold, you have to use cap space, and they weren't going to be able to with either of them. If you can use cap holds to sign players, you have an endless cap, and that is what Cleveland is doing.

They have full bird on Horford and won't have to use cap space, so as I said, they have plenty of money in this free agency. They just aren't going to be able to use it I bet. They'll do their due diligence on players like Durant and Batum, but I bet they'll be turned down.

Ok. Im getting closer. Ok, you are saying that Millsap and Carroll both were early bird, and were slotted into a CHARGE against the total cap, meaning a caphold.  Then you said that if you can sign a player with that specific charge against the cap, you have to eat into your total cap space to sign that player. What threw me off again is when you said they werent able to do that with either of those players.

Lastly, what is Cleveland doing that is allowing them to use capholds.  This stuff is too confusing.  Maybe if you used some fake numbers as a example, then explain it to me.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Ok.  What i dont get by what you said is the fact you said that if you have Bird rights on a player, you can sign him and exceed the cap. If the Hawks had Bird on Millsap and Carroll, and signing Bird right players dont count agains the cap, then why couldnt they have signed another big contract? Is early Bird, different than regular Bird or is there such a thing?  I know you know what  you talking about, im jus lost as to how that crap works.

Do they have Bird on Horford? I dont get this CBA crap at all. Too convulated and it still doesnt explain to me how other teams always seem to get around it, but the Hawks cant.

@Hawkmoor

@Lurker missed  this point in his explanation - $18 million is Al's cap hold which counts against the cap, however we can sign him for $27 mil. so the $9 mil difference will  be over the cap money.  So the $18 is the figure you use to determine how much free capspace we have left to sign other free agents.

If we had full Bird right on both Millsap and DMC they'd both be Hawks at whatever price.

The caphold is 150% of his current salary of $12 mil.

 

[Guest]

Here is a breakdown of  the guaranteed money for next  season:

PLAYER NAME		2016/17	2017/18	2018/19	2019/20	2020/21
Paul Millsap		$20,072,033	$21,472,408	$0	$0	$0
Al Horford		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Tiago Splitter		$8,250,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Jeff Teague		$8,000,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kyle Korver		$5,239,437	$0	$0	$0	$0
Thabo Sefolosha		$4,000,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Mike Scott		$3,333,333	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kirk Hinrich		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kent Bazemore		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Dennis Schröder		$2,708,582	$3,824,518	$0	$0	$0
Tim Hardaway Jr		$2,281,605	$3,335,707	$0	$0	$0
Kris Humphries		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Walter Tavares		$1,000,000	$1,014,746	$0	$0	$0
Mike Muscala		$1,015,696	$0	$0	$0	$0
Lamar Patterson		$874,636	$0	$0	$0	$0
TOTALS		$52,426,293	$21,472,408	$0	$0	$0

 

@Hawkmoor from the  numbers  above this leaves us with $40 mil in capspace if we renounce Al, Kirk, Moose,Hump and Scott.

Example 1: So if we do as you want and sign D12 to a max deal of $32 million it leaves us with $8 mil to fill out the roster.

Example 2: We sign Batum to  a max of $27 mil, that  leaves us with $13 mil to fill out the rest of the roster

Example 3: We sign Al to a max deal of $27 mil. since we own full bird rights the charge against the capspace is  $18 mil, leaving us with $22 million to fill out the roster.

Any clearer?

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Ok. Im getting closer. Ok, you are saying that Millsap and Carroll both were early bird, and were slotted into a CHARGE against the total cap, meaning a caphold.  Then you said that if you can sign a player with that specific charge against the cap, you have to eat into your total cap space to sign that player. What threw me off again is when you said they werent able to do that with either of those players.

Lastly, what is Cleveland doing that is allowing them to use capholds.  This stuff is too confusing.  Maybe if you used some fake numbers as a example, then explain it to me.

Cleveland was able to resign Irving, Love and Tristan because they had early bird rights.

[Hawkmoor]

20 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Here is a breakdown of  the guaranteed money for next  season:

PLAYER NAME		2016/17	2017/18	2018/19	2019/20	2020/21
Paul Millsap		$20,072,033	$21,472,408	$0	$0	$0
Al Horford		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Tiago Splitter		$8,250,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Jeff Teague		$8,000,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kyle Korver		$5,239,437	$0	$0	$0	$0
Thabo Sefolosha		$4,000,000	$0	$0	$0	$0
Mike Scott		$3,333,333	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kirk Hinrich		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Kent Bazemore		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Dennis Schröder		$2,708,582	$3,824,518	$0	$0	$0
Tim Hardaway Jr		$2,281,605	$3,335,707	$0	$0	$0
Kris Humphries		$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Walter Tavares		$1,000,000	$1,014,746	$0	$0	$0
Mike Muscala		$1,015,696	$0	$0	$0	$0
Lamar Patterson		$874,636	$0	$0	$0	$0
TOTALS		$52,426,293	$21,472,408	$0	$0	$0

 

@Hawkmoor from the  numbers  above this leaves us with $40 mil in capspace if we renounce Al, Kirk, Moose,Hump and Scott.

Example 1: So if we do as you want and sign D12 to a max deal of $32 million it leaves us with $8 mil to fill out the roster.

Example 2: We sign Batum to  a max of $27 mil, that  leaves us with $13 mil to fill out the rest of the roster

Example 3: We sign Al to a max deal of $27 mil. since we own full bird rights the charge against the capspace is  $18 mil, leaving us with $22 million to fill out the roster.

Any clearer?

 

Ok. Excellent break down.  I only have two more  questions after that excellent explanation.  Where did you get the 40 million cap space from? ( is there a total tap space that you subtracted contracts to get that number ?)  Next, how does early Bird affect what you are saying. Lets pretend that the Hawks only had early Bird on Horford this year as a example. How would that affect the numbers and options?  

Again, excellent breakdown.  It piques my interest more now into how this team is being built.  I see now how having  full Bird rights is a incentive to get these guys to agree to long term deals.  That last option where they resign Horford and still have 22 million to work is looking good.

 

oops, one more question. You said renouncing Al along with those other players gives you the 40 million space.  I thought if your renounce a contract, you couldnt go back and resign the player.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hawkmoor