He wouldn't just say this....

[AHF]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Schlenk is building a roster with the intent on being a high potter team.  I'm that is not that different from Philly.  

Yeah, I've not seen you differentiate Philly from any team that intends to dip into the lottery.  I see meaningful differences in different rebuilds.

[hazer]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

The Sixers unloaded all their young talent under contract when they kicked off the process.  We haven't done that at all.

I've pointed that out to him at least 3 times. Intentionally ignores it since it doesn't fit his narrative.

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, hazer said:

I've pointed that out to him at least 3 times. Intentionally ignores it since it doesn't fit his narrative.

That's moot....  Both teams ridded themselves of TALENT in order to be bad enough to go into the lottery and find high level talent.  It's the exact same move.

Should Philly have kept Thaddeous Young, Brandon Davies, Michael Carter Williams?  I don't know.

However, people will be asking the same question regarding Millsap, D8 and THJr in years to come. 

 

 

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's moot....  Both teams ridded themselves of TALENT in order to be bad enough to go into the lottery and find high level talent.  It's the exact same move.

 

What?  There is a wide spectrum of different approaches that fit the label of rebuilding.  Conflating all of them as being the "exact same" does nothing to advance the conversation on them.

What Philly did was a systemic move to get rid of all young talent for future assets so the team could lose the most games in the league.  They took injured players and foreign prospects to keep the team at the very bottom of the league and only looked to turn the corner years into the draft asset acquisition process.  That is a radical extreme and comparing it with a team that avoids overpaid vets while keeping and developing its young talent under contract is a false equivalency.

It is like drawing an equivalency between a team that tries more than an average number of on-side kicks and 4th down conversions and a team that does on side kicks after every score and never punts.  They just are not the same thing (and whether that is good or bad is irrelevant to the fact that they aren't the same).

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

What?  There is a wide spectrum of different approaches that fit the label of rebuilding.  Conflating all of them as being the "exact same" does nothing to advance the conversation on them.

What Philly did was a systemic move to get rid of all young talent for future assets so the team could lose the most games in the league.  They took injured players and foreign prospects to keep the team at the very bottom of the league and only looked to turn the corner years into the draft asset acquisition process.  That is a radical extreme and comparing it with a team that avoids overpaid vets while keeping and developing its young talent under contract is a false equivalency.

It is like drawing an equivalency between a team that tries more than average on side kicks and a team that does on side kicks after every score.  They just are not the same thing (and whether that is good or bad is irrelevant to the fact that they aren't the same).

Look a little closer.

 

Jrue Holiday.  

July 12, 2013: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers with Pierre Jackson to the New Orleans Pelicans for Nerlens Noel and a 2014 1st round draft pick (Elfrid Payton was later selected).

 

If you look at that trade... it was a damn win for Philadelphia.  

Evan Turner.

ebruary 20, 2014: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers with Lavoy Allen to the Indiana Pacers for Danny Granger and a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Luka Mitrovic was later selected).

 

This was a cap clearing Move.  They made the mistaking of paying Turner 14 Million per year.  TO get out of the bad contract, they traded him for an expiring contract.   Didn't we do something worse with D8??

Thaddues Young. 

August 23, 2014: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Cleveland Cavaliers traded Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins and a trade exception to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Cleveland Cavaliers traded a 2016 1st round draft pick (Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot was later selected) to the Philadelphia 76ers; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Kevin Love to the Cleveland Cavaliers; and the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Luc Mbah a Moute and Alexey Shved to the Philadelphia 76ers.

For somebody who is not that productive.. to trade Young for a future first... is not a bad deal. 

 

Elfrid Payton. 

June 26, 2014: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Orlando Magic for Dario Saric, a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Willy Hernangomez was later selected) and a 2017 1st round draft pick (De'Aaron Fox was later selected).

If done correctly...

Trading Payton for Saric, a 1st (Fox) and a second is a DAMN WIN.

 

So... their rebuild and our rebuild have the very same hallmarks.. Saving Cap and drafting high.  Then trading for better talent when possible...   Isn't that the same thing we're doing?

 

 

[Bankingitbig]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Look a little closer.

 

Jrue Holiday.  

July 12, 2013: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers with Pierre Jackson to the New Orleans Pelicans for Nerlens Noel and a 2014 1st round draft pick (Elfrid Payton was later selected).

 

If you look at that trade... it was a damn win for Philadelphia.  

Evan Turner.

ebruary 20, 2014: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers with Lavoy Allen to the Indiana Pacers for Danny Granger and a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Luka Mitrovic was later selected).

 

This was a cap clearing Move.  They made the mistaking of paying Turner 14 Million per year.  TO get out of the bad contract, they traded him for an expiring contract.   Didn't we do something worse with D8??

Thaddues Young. 

August 23, 2014: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Cleveland Cavaliers traded Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins and a trade exception to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Cleveland Cavaliers traded a 2016 1st round draft pick (Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot was later selected) to the Philadelphia 76ers; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Kevin Love to the Cleveland Cavaliers; and the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Luc Mbah a Moute and Alexey Shved to the Philadelphia 76ers.

For somebody who is not that productive.. to trade Young for a future first... is not a bad deal. 

 

Elfrid Payton. 

June 26, 2014: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Orlando Magic for Dario Saric, a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Willy Hernangomez was later selected) and a 2017 1st round draft pick (De'Aaron Fox was later selected).

If done correctly...

Trading Payton for Saric, a 1st (Fox) and a second is a DAMN WIN.

 

So... their rebuild and our rebuild have the very same hallmarks.. Saving Cap and drafting high.  Then trading for better talent when possible...   Isn't that the same thing we're doing?

 

 

Jrue Holiday one is debatable. They are still feeling the consequences of not having a legit point guard. Basically traded a legit PG for two first round picks. Idk about that being a "damn win"...

Turner was a cap dump I guess... But he was only getting paid $5m/year, not $14m per year. This looks like an obvious tank trade to me though... Turner was expiring and was their highest PPG player at the time. Basically traded him away for nothing.

Thad Young for a 1st. I think it all depends on the where you are at competitively. Obviously 76ers weren't ready to compete so getting a first for him wasn't a bad deal.

Elfrid Payton trade. This one is a win for the 76ers, but has nothing to really do with them tanking or not. Just that they likely had Saric higher on their draft boards and knew he would be around two spots later. So why not trade away your pick to gain an extra first and 2nd for only 2 spots. But I think also taking a draft-and-stash in Saric is indicative of what they were trying to do.

 

If Hinkie was running the Hawks right now, then you probably would have already seen Schröder and Bembry traded. Maybe he would have kept Prince. You DEFINITELY wouldn't have seen vets like Dedmon or Ilyasova signed.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

So... their rebuild and our rebuild have the very same hallmarks.. Saving Cap and drafting high.  Then trading for better talent when possible...   Isn't that the same thing we're doing?

 

Whether the individual moves were good or not, we are keeping Dennis they ditched Holiday.  We are keeping Prince.  We are keeping Bembry.  etc.  The fact that some of what we are doing overlap doesn't mean it is the "exact same."

It is different.

[hazer]

44 minutes ago, AHF said:

Whether the individual moves were good or not, we are keeping Dennis they ditched Holiday.  We are keeping Prince.  We are keeping Bembry.  etc.  The fact that some of what we are doing overlap doesn't mean it is the "exact same."

It is different.

You're wasting your breath.....

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Bankingitbig said:

You DEFINITELY wouldn't have seen vets like Dedmon or Ilyasova signed.

Definitely true.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Bankingitbig said:

Jrue Holiday one is debatable. They are still feeling the consequences of not having a legit point guard. Basically traded a legit PG for two first round picks. Idk about that being a "damn win"...

 

Are you kidding me...

If we traded Jrue Holiday and got back Nerlens Noel and a 1st rounder... that turned out to be the 10th pick in the draft...  We would throw a damn parade for Schlenk.  A PARADE... and you say that it's Debatable?  Just being disagreeable aye?  By the way..   you could have had a better argument with trading payton.. .because he is a 6.5 apg PG right now... However, that got them Saric and Could have had Fox... so that's not a great argument either. 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Whether the individual moves were good or not, we are keeping Dennis they ditched Holiday.  We are keeping Prince.  We are keeping Bembry.  etc.  The fact that some of what we are doing overlap doesn't mean it is the "exact same."

It is different.

The general plan is the same.  You are pointing to details.  The fact that the moves that they made were really good actually goes against this thought that you put out that they somehow just ignorantly ditched talent.   IN each case, they made a move that many would say was a winning move... so there was nothing haphazard about it.   

I mean, I think that if Schlenk could get 2 first round Lottery Picks for Dennis, he would be gone tomorrow.   And in essence, that's what Philly was offered for Holiday. 

It's impossible to look at any rebuilding case and say it's the EXACT same.. however, the general plan that Philly had is the same.  Move big contracts, acquire draft picks and develop players.  Look around. look around.. that's what we are doing. 

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Bankingitbig said:

 You DEFINITELY wouldn't have seen vets like Dedmon or Ilyasova signed.

Which free agents were jumping to go to Philadelphia again?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150112_NBA_veterans_don_t_want_to_play_for_Sixers.html

 

Quote

The Philadelphia 76ers recently acquired Andrei Kirilenko for another chance at compiling future second round picks. Kirilenko never reported to the Sixers, as many believed he may just be able to work a buyout with the team and then move on to sign with a contender for the remainder of the season. The Sixers didn't see the situation that way. They were patient with Kirilenko attending to a family matter in New York City, but eventually suspended the veteran forward without pay for not reporting to the team.

Quote

 According to Keith Pompey of Philly.com, one anonymous player in the Eastern Conference said nobody wants to play for the Sixers right now. With them not putting forth a roster that allows them to win now, veterans don't want to waste precious years racking up losses in the name of the future. 

Please... consider that second quote as it pertains to us in the future. 

 

[Bankingitbig]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

Which free agents were jumping to go to Philadelphia again?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150112_NBA_veterans_don_t_want_to_play_for_Sixers.html

 

Please... consider that second quote as it pertains to us in the future. 

 

I'm confused....  Are you agreeing with me here? Because Schlenk went out to get veterans and wants them to actually play, whereas Hinkie only wanted them to trade. Seems to be completely different to me. Also the roster Philly was putting together vs. what we have currently is materially different. Philly went from 19 wins to 18 to 10. People still think we could come close to 35wins. Your comparison is just flat out wrong.

Weren't you also the one saying we should have just let Dwight and Crawford sit on the bench being disgruntled? A perfect way to try and attract veteran free agents... I can't follow your logic here at all. Sorry.

What signing did you want Schlenk to make that he didn't? You gotta give some actual substance here instead of just crying "tanking!"... Did you want him to bring back THJ at $71m/4years? Did you want Paul back at $90m? I don't see any signing that Schlenk missed that would have put us closer to a championship rather than having the future flexibility from a cap perspective.

[Bankingitbig]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

Are you kidding me...

If we traded Jrue Holiday and got back Nerlens Noel and a 1st rounder... that turned out to be the 10th pick in the draft...  We would throw a damn parade for Schlenk.  A PARADE... and you say that it's Debatable?  Just being disagreeable aye?  By the way..   you could have had a better argument with trading payton.. .because he is a 6.5 apg PG right now... However, that got them Saric and Could have had Fox... so that's not a great argument either. 

 

 

 

Hindsight is strong with you isn't it? Philly traded a young, legit PG coming off his first all-star appearance because they didn't want to extend his contract basically. Full on tank move. They received 2 first round picks for an all-star PG at the time who was 22..... You would throw a parade for your team trading a 22 year old all-star PG for two first round picks?

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Bankingitbig said:

Hindsight is strong with you isn't it? Philly traded a young, legit PG coming off his first all-star appearance because they didn't want to extend his contract basically. Full on tank move. They received 2 first round picks for an all-star PG at the time who was 22..... You would throw a parade for your team trading a 22 year old all-star PG for two first round picks?

What has Holiday done since?

They got 2 first round Lottery picks out of the deal.  You are damn right I would throw a parade.  You act as though the tank was the only mission there.  They got two Lottery picks for him.   What 22 year old allstar PG is worth more than 2 lottery picks?

Noel was the #6 pick of his draft.  This was the scouting report for him:

Quote

Overall: Noel is a top-level defensive player, and a likely one-and-done prospect ... He should be able to add the all-around polish he needs to be a very high draft pick at Kentucky next year, and could be considered for the top-overall pick in the 2013 draft ...

Many people expected Noel to be the #1 pick overall in his draft class.  He dropped to New Orleans and they traded him and another 1st rounder to Philly.   That's good tanking. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Bankingitbig said:

I'm confused....  Are you agreeing with me here? Because Schlenk went out to get veterans and wants them to actually play, whereas Hinkie only wanted them to trade. Seems to be completely different to me.

You act like Philly didn't want Vets.  They went out and traded for AK47 and he refused to report.... ala Crawford.  They made good deals with the players who had value. 

You want to talk about what I want from Schlenk.. it's very simple... Make good deals.  I don't mind that we're tanking.  But if we're going to tank... make good deals.   The signings of Schlenk right now are not evaluatable.   However, the Crawford Buyout... The D8 trade were both not great. 

My point is still though... it's the very same general plan as Philly.  

1. Convert High Salary into Picks.
2.  Lose Competitively.  
3. Build through the draft.  
4. At some point get good enough to go after big name free agents. 

You and others are trying to say that the general plan is different because Hinkie traded young players for Picks.  What I'm saying... while in tanking mode, those were GOOD deals.  You trade a 22 year old PG who is coming up on a contract year in 2 years because

1. You get 2 lottery draft picks for him
2. You have no proof that he will stay during the rebuild.

You say we kept Dennis... as a sign that we're not like Philly.  That's laughable.  Why.

1. Nobody is giving us 2 lottery picks for him.
2. He's signed to a long term deal already.

But ask your peers... 

If Sacramento would have given us DeArron Fox and their 2018 first round draft pick (top three protected) for Dennis and Moose....  Ask them.. how many of them would take that deal? BTW...at draft time.. most of the people thought that Sacramento would be crazy to trade just  #5 for Dennis... so there you go. 

 

 

[Bankingitbig]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

What has Holiday done since?

They got 2 first round Lottery picks out of the deal.  You are damn right I would throw a parade.  You act as though the tank was the only mission there.  They got two Lottery picks for him.   What 22 year old allstar PG is worth more than 2 lottery picks?

Noel was the #6 pick of his draft.  This was the scouting report for him:

Many people expected Noel to be the #1 pick overall in his draft class.  He dropped to New Orleans and they traded him and another 1st rounder to Philly.   That's good tanking. 

 

Holiday has done more than Noel, Payton, Saric, and anything else the 76ers got in that trade... Your logic is hilarious if you're actually asking that question in this scenario.

Still using that hindsight aren't you? Why not actually use logic and grade the trade at the time of it happening. No guarantee that the other 1st round pick is in the lottery at #10 as the Pelicans did the trade in hopes of making the playoffs, which they eventually did the following year.

Can you believe the 76ers dumped a pick that people expected to be #1 for basically a bunch of garbage in Justin Anderson and 2 2nd round picks? Why in the world would they do that if Noel is as good as you think? Maybe this is another case of you thinking you are better at determining a player's value than the other 30 NBA GMs. I'm thinking it is. Great tanking though you're right........

Either way, I am still so confused by your points.... You're making zero sense. You're trying to say that Schlenk is following the path of the 76ers, yet all your points have been proven to be completely false and you haven't made any real connections between the two. Here I will again disprove your point. Hinkie traded his only true asset at the time in Holiday to purposefully tank and gain future assets. If Schlenk followed this path as you are claiming, then why hasn't Prince, Bembry or Schröder been traded?

[Diesel]

25 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

Holiday has done more than Noel, Payton, Saric, and anything else the 76ers got in that trade... Your logic is hilarious if you're actually asking that question in this scenario.

He did so much that New Orleans went out and PAID Rondo to be their PG.    He did so much that he led a team with Anthony Davis to a 34 win record.   He did so much that with Davis and Boogie Cousins... they were 15-18 in the last 3 months of last season. 

Quote

After Holiday struggled to find his way after the team acquired All-Star center DeMarcus Cousins last year, Gentry figured that it was better for Holiday if he focused more on scoring and less about being the team's main facilitator.

 

Now... they may be a whole lot better this year but Philly needed a PG not a combo guard.  Maybe NO is finding out now what Philly knew then.

[Bankingitbig]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You act like Philly didn't want Vets.  They went out and traded for AK47 and he refused to report.... ala Crawford.  They made good deals with the players who had value. 

You want to talk about what I want from Schlenk.. it's very simple... Make good deals.  I don't mind that we're tanking.  But if we're going to tank... make good deals.   The signings of Schlenk right now are not evaluatable.   However, the Crawford Buyout... The D8 trade were both not great. 

My point is still though... it's the very same general plan as Philly.  

1. Convert High Salary into Picks.
2.  Lose Competitively.  
3. Build through the draft.  
4. At some point get good enough to go after big name free agents. 

You and others are trying to say that the general plan is different because Hinkie traded young players for Picks.  What I'm saying... while in tanking mode, those were GOOD deals.  You trade a 22 year old PG who is coming up on a contract year in 2 years because

1. You get 2 lottery draft picks for him
2. You have no proof that he will stay during the rebuild.

You say we kept Dennis... as a sign that we're not like Philly.  That's laughable.  Why.

1. Nobody is giving us 2 lottery picks for him.
2. He's signed to a long term deal already.

But ask your peers... 

If Sacramento would have given us DeArron Fox and their 2018 first round draft pick (top three protected) for Dennis and Moose....  Ask them.. how many of them would take that deal? BTW...at draft time.. most of the people thought that Sacramento would be crazy to trade just  #5 for Dennis... so there you go. 

 

 

Are you actually going to try and claim that the 76ers wanted veterans on their team because they traded for an expiring contract in AK47? You're just going to ignore all the other facts of them being way below the salary cap and never going after vets in free agency. Yet, you are going to try and say they wanted vets because they used their salary cap space to be able to help Nets dump AK47's contract...... Whew boy that is quite the reach for a conclusion.. Don't forget they received a 2nd round pick in that trade for taking on AK47's salary and we all know how much Hinkie loved his draft picks..

I mean did you actually read the stuff that you quoted to me previously?

"The Philadelphia 76ers recently acquired Andrei Kirilenko for another chance at compiling future second round picks."

Then there is this: https://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--sixers-want-andrei-kirilenko-to-report-to-team-063304792.html

"The Sixers want Kirilenko to start working his way back into playing condition and eventually be activated to play in games. Ultimately, this could set up the opportunity for Philadelphia to deal Kirilenko for an asset at the NBA’s February trade deadline, or let him reclaim his market value for free agency this summer. Nevertheless, it is unlikely the Sixers would keep Kirilenko past the trade deadline – either hunting down a way to deal him for an asset, or simply waiving him."

Keep stretching with that conclusion of the 76ers wanting vets though, despite everyone else stating that the 76ers wanted to get the 2nd round pick from the Nets initially and then hoped to get more draft picks later for AK47...

You were using inaccurate information previously to make your conclusion about the Crawford buyout, thinking his salary cap hit would be the full $28m. You thought $28m over two years wasn't worth a 1st round pick. Then even after proving to you that it would be somewhere near a $11m cap hit this year (potentially lower once we learn the buyout) with a negligible hit next year, you still say it wasn't worth it. Idk what to say if you think that isn't worth it for a 1st round pick. What player/contract did you want Schlenk to use that salary cap space this year on instead of getting a first round pick?

We already discussed the D8 trade, so no need to bring that back up. You continue to think you know the value of a player better than all the other GMs and think Schlenk took an inferior deal on purpose for whatever reason. You also fail to mention Millsap saying the most important thing he wanted in free agency from a prospective team was "functionality"... Wonder why he would say that?

Why would you need proof that he would stay during a rebuild when he is your rookie and you are able to extend his contract or match any offer?

Sorry that wasn't Philly's game plan. They didn't convert high salary into picks.. They didn't even have high salary players lol... They traded young, low salary assets for future picks because they wanted to lose and ensure a top draft pick until they finally hit on a super star. They didn't lose competitively. Their GM purposefully wanted to lose to ensure top draft picks. Build through the draft - that's a generic statement/strategy. We haven't even seen enough of Schlenk to know how exactly he wants to build. He has said that you want flexibility to go after a potential star (ie. Harden and the Rockets).

Here you go contradicting yourself again. Let's look at Philly's Step 1 that you YOURSELF claim "Convert high salary into picks". If we were following the Philly playbook, as you suggest, then why hasn't Schröder been traded for picks???? Hinkie would have traded Schröder in a heartbeat like I said.

I honestly don't what Schröder has to do with the 2 lottery pick scenario you are claiming. My guess is you are trying to make a connection to what the 76ers got for a better Jrue Holiday. Not sure how that is relevant. My previous point about Jrue Holiday was you suggesting that trade as a "damn win" with using your hindsight analysis. Bleacher Report at the time gave it a B for the 76ers and an A+ for the Pelicans (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1687222-sixers-pelicans-trade-grading-the-nerlens-noel-for-jrue-holiday-swap). The point isn't what Schröder could net us in a trade. The point is if it was a 76er way of building that Schröder would have been traded already for future assets, like you said yourself in your Philly general plan of trading high salary for picks. Not sure how that is laughable, using your own judgment and analyze of what Philly did.

But yea if Dennis was putting up 18pts and 8assits while shooting 37% from 3 and being known as a great defender with great size and, oh btw, an all-star at age 22... Then I don't know if I would trade him for Fox and another first round pick... I certainly wouldn't be going around throwing a parade and calling it a damn win like you would though.

[Diesel]

Oh.. .Bank.. one last thing on the trade.. before you go all willy neally. I forgot to also mention:

 

Jrue Holiday, Pierre Jackson  for  Noel, 1st round pick in 2014 draft (lottery)...

and

They drafted Michael Carter Williams (to replace Holiday) who won the rookie of the year award that year... in a landslide.

If we did that... I don't think that there would be a Hawks fan that hated the GM.