An interesting Statistical view of Dennis.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, kurupt said:

You have no idea about Dennis career in Germany, Diesel. Just stop pulling stuff out of your ass...

Educate us Kurupt... Tell us how terrible the German Leagues are and thus provide an excuse for Dennis Now... I mean.. that is what you're saying right??  You're saying that the German League are inferior and that having only 3 Germans to ever play in the NBA is proof of that ....That's what you're saying right??

 

[RedDawg#8]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

Well, after playing in that terrible league...  Dennis received the attention of everybody by doing this.

Back in 2013... He seemingly outplayed guys like Wiggins, Towns, Exum, Parker, Randle Jefferson, Etc.. while he led his team to victory of the USA Select team.   Here's what they said about him:

So now.. it's 4 years later.   He's had 2 years of 20+ mpg before becoming full time starter.  Why are you still making excuses?  IF it were Dennis at 19, I would understand.  But this is that Dennis that dominated at 19.. with 4 more years of experience playing against the best and you're making him sound like he's a 17 year old straight out of High School.  He has never been a 17 year old straight out of high school because he was playing with professionals since he was 15.  

Ok, your premise is entirely wrong. You're basing things off of YOUR opinion that Dennis is struggling in his career presently, which is absolutely not true. Dennis is already an above average NBA point guard. That can not be disputed. Can not. If you want to tear down a guy who just averaged 18 & 6 then I have nothing for you. 

His contract is a value for his level of production. He still has upside and every indication is that he will continue to improve especially considering he hasn't even filled out his frame yet. Coach Bud has groomed him from day 1 and CHOSE HIM over Teague. 

I mean how can anyone sit here and try to convince us that Dennis is a negative impact on this team. 

Did you even watch the playoffs this year? Did you not see him raise his game to another's level against one of the games best.

I bet you think Teague vs Rose in 2011 was a better performance. 

 

 

[kurupt]

vor 7 Stunden, Diesel sagte:

Educate us Kurupt... Tell us how terrible the German Leagues are and thus provide an excuse for Dennis Now... I mean.. that is what you're saying right??  You're saying that the German League are inferior and that having only 3 Germans to ever play in the NBA is proof of that ....That's what you're saying right??

 

You are an idiot who is not interested in anything besides your own fantasies anyway. So why should anyone still make an effort to educate your bum ass?

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Ok, your premise is entirely wrong. You're basing things off of YOUR opinion that Dennis is struggling in his career presently, which is absolutely not true. Dennis is already an above average NBA point guard. That can not be disputed. Can not. If you want to tear down a guy who just averaged 18 & 6 then I have nothing for you. 

 

nba.com assist per game rank = #16

Hollinger's PER for PGs  rank= #22

Sportsonearth PG rankings = #17

Quote

He loves hunting for his own shot and is pretty clever at getting to the basket. But Schröder may not have the chops to run an efficient offense against opposing starters. It's a bummer, because he's starting to punish defenders who duck under screens with a respectable (but still not great) jump shot. 

Schröder is somehow posting a lower assist rate this season, too, which doesn't make the most sense when you consider that his role last year was to add some individual offensive punch to Mike Budenholzer's pass-happy system

Here's the thing... I can continue to find ranking after ranking that says that Dennis is average.   Somebody already has stated that when you put Dennis under the microscope of Advanced statistics, he won't look good.  But since you believe that he's Undisputably above Average... aside from just your opinion, find an outlet that would look over all the PGs in the League and agree with you that he's in the top 10 of PGs... that would be above Average...

But let me give you a hint...

According to Hollinger's ranking statistic, this is the top 10 of PGs..

Russell Westbrook, OKC	81	34.6	.554	23.4	12.2	42.5	5.4	28.8	17.1	30.70	823.7	27.5
2	Isaiah Thomas, BOS	76	33.8	.625	18.5	8.7	32.8	1.9	7.0	4.4	26.59	597.9	19.9
3	Chris Paul, LAC	61	31.5	.614	35.0	9.1	25.8	2.4	14.9	8.8	26.25	437.3	14.6
4	Stephen Curry, GS	79	33.4	.624	22.2	10.1	29.5	2.7	11.4	7.3	24.74	541.1	18.0
5	Damian Lillard, POR	75	35.9	.586	18.6	8.3	30.7	1.9	13.3	7.6	24.15	528.7	17.6
6	John Wall, WSH	78	36.4	.541	29.5	11.4	31.7	2.4	10.6	6.5	23.28	519.7	17.3
7	Mike Conley, MEM	69	33.2	.604	24.6	8.9	26.8	1.5	10.8	6.0	23.26	419.3	14.0
8	Kyrie Irving, CLE	72	35.1	.580	19.3	8.3	29.9	2.3	7.5	5.0	23.09	455.6	15.2
9	Kyle Lowry, TOR	60	37.4	.623	25.0	10.4	25.2	2.4	12.0	7.2	22.92	399.1	13.3
10	Kemba Walker, CHA

 

Also, remember, that we're talking about ranking for the Season that includes offense and defense... not ranking for one lonely playoff series.  A playoff series is laughable...  We all watched Jeff Teague come off the bench and average 15/4 against the MVP of the League in a head to head duel.  It didn't mean that he was above average in the league.  Basketball is about Matchups.   However, when you're ranking Positions, the regular season and is a better place for evaluation than just one 5 game series.   So which of these top 10 PGs is Dennis better than?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

 

 

 

We have no choice but to bet on Dennis.  Despite losing 2 of these games, Dennis was outstanding offensively.  Defense still needs a lot of work, but Wall is arguably a top 5 PG in the league, and took his game to the next level in that series.   But if Dennis can play like this on more nights than not, I'll be very satisfied.

[Diesel]

25 minutes ago, kurupt said:

You are an idiot who is not interested in anything besides your own fantasies anyway. So why should anyone still make an effort to educate your bum ass?

Quote

 

Why do some people insult during an argument or discussion?

 

Some people are simply more close minded than others and are not willing to consider that their perspective might be wrong. In turn, they feel as though they have been insulted and retaliate. It's a way to put the other person down as if to say, "who are you to know?" The intentions are to make the offender seem less credible, although people often resort to insults that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

 

[rd79]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Educate us Kurupt... Tell us how terrible the German Leagues are and thus provide an excuse for Dennis Now... I mean.. that is what you're saying right??  You're saying that the German League are inferior and that having only 3 Germans to ever play in the NBA is proof of that ....That's what you're saying right??

 

Actually there are even 5 of them under contract for next season...

Back to topic: How many of that mentioned top 10 PGs are younger than Dennis? Why shouldn't he improve? I don't get it... But of course this next season may show the direction his career will move on, because

• It's the first season he's the man (something not many expected him to ever become at all for any NBA team after his rookie season)
• He is used to play starter minutes and starter opponents now, so no excuses being a 1st year starter any more. His defense has to improve
• Can he become an off court leader too (without Sap and even Howard around)?
   

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, rd79 said:

Actually there are even 5 of them under contract for next season...

Back to topic: How many of that mentioned top 10 PGs are younger than Dennis? Why shouldn't he improve? I don't get it... But of course this next season may show the direction his career will move on, because

• It's the first season he's the man (something not many expected him to ever become at all for any NBA team after his rookie season)
• He is used to play starter minutes and starter opponents now, so no excuses being a 1st year starter any more. His defense has to improve
• Can he become an off court leader too (without Sap and even Howard around)?
   

I respect your points and you're right.. this next year will be telling, but last year should have been telling.  My prediction is that if he struggles, it will be said that he didn't have any help... and honestly he doesn't.  However, when he had Help in the person of Millsap, THJr, and Howard, he didn't always involve them in the offense. 

Off Court Leadership is Hard.  I can imagine that the off-court and lockerroom leader of this team will be Baze.  Baze is one of those President of Players Union type guys.   I think Guys will listen to him and follow him off the court. 

 

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I respect your points and you're right.. this next year will be telling, but last year should have been telling.  My prediction is that if he struggles, it will be said that he didn't have any help... and honestly he doesn't.  However, when he had Help in the person of Millsap, THJr, and Howard, he didn't always involve them in the offense. 

Off Court Leadership is Hard.  I can imagine that the off-court and lockerroom leader of this team will be Baze.  Baze is one of those President of Players Union type guys.   I think Guys will listen to him and follow him off the court.

 

Two of these things are not like the other, two of these things are not the same...

[Lurker]

If Dennis can't play PNR, why does he play PNR just fine with Millsap outside of having him ****post****?

Things that make you "HMMMMM"... #Agendas.

Let me do what the German was supposed to. If you think that Dennis was 15 when he seriously begun in the pros, let's begin and end with I'm 20 years old right now if so, and I'm 22. He'd have a 1995 birthday if so.

And again let me ask, am I really supposed to give a s*** about second leagues in Europe? College basketball teams regularly beat the heck out of them on tours, its worse than college.

[AHF]

KNOCK OFF THE NAME CALLING ON THIS THREAD.  

 

DONT LIKE ISSUING WARNINGS BUT THAT IS THE NEXT STEP -- ADDRESS THE ISSUE NOT THE POSTER.

[KB21]

Let's clear up one misconception in this thread.  "Bud Ball" is not a rigid offensive system where there is only one way they want to play.  It is a malleable offense that can be structured to fit the talent of the specific players within the system.  "Bud Ball" at its core is simply a motion offense.  This offense in SA has gone from being more of a post centric motion offense that fed Tim Duncan to one that relied more on the pick and roll and spacing to allow Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili to aggressively attack the rim.

This is Pop's direct quote about this "system":

Quote

"It's a motion offense. It's malleable. It's ever-changing, in the sense that when players are moving and the ball is moving, sometimes things happen on offense that you didn't even plan on, that players just do, and it becomes part of the offense. Other things, coaches may concoct them over in an offense because you watch enough film and you try to manipulate something and it becomes part of the offense. But basically, back in the late 90s, Brett (Brown), Bud (Mike Budenholzer) and I, and coach (Hank) Egan decided how we wanted to play, what kind of offense we wanted to use and we decided on a motion offense and put in the basics. And each year we would tweak it a little bit ourselves, we'd add something we saw the players do. So it evolved and continues to evolve. It doesn't stay exactly the same but the base is always there"

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/4/7/5587716/gregg-popovich-evolution-san-antonio-offense-system

So, yes.  Dennis fits the system.  He isn't a Russell Westbrook type of heavy isolation player.  

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by KB21

[kurupt]

I am going to try, although it will be futile.

1. Schröder didn't have "years of experience playing with Pros in Germany". He played in a youth team of the local pro-team until he was 17/18 years old. I, a 5-9 tall bum, f***ing played with/against players from those teams. He started playing in the 3rd Division farm team as a 17/18 year old, a league where the 2 allowed American Pros per team weren't even bottom-shelf Div-1A players but worse. The rest of the teams are amateurs. He wasn't considered an elite talent in the youth National Teams. He barely played minutes in the 1st-Division during the 2011/2012 season despite domintating the 3rd division (which, again, is like putting up good numbers in Division-2 college ball).

Everything he got, he earned during the 2012/2013 season when he got 20 minutes per game. That led, out of nowhere, to the invitation to the Nike Hoop Summit where he surprised people. He was never considered a great talent or had been "dominating for years" as Diesel said.

 

2. No one here argues that he was better than average last year as a starter. But this was his first season as a starter and it is simply unreasonable to expect a lot more from a 17th pick. He is still young and, most importantly, he has improved significantly every single year since he was 17 years old.

You also have to consider that this is a golden age of Point Guards right now. Being average (putting him somewhere bewtween 12th and 18th) as a PG right now means much more than being an above average Shooting Guard or Center. Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Paul, Thomas, Wall, Lowry, Conley, Lillard, Walker, Irving - that's 11 PGs in their prime that are easily All-Star worthy.

The starting PGs that are close (at most 2 years older) to him in terms of age are Kyrie Irving, Tyler Johnson, Elfrid Payton, D'angelo Russel, Yogi Ferrell and TJ McConnel. Except Irving, no GM would trade Schröder straight up for any of these guys (maybe Russel talent-wise, but that guy has serious character issues).

Just to clarify this point a bit more: as a 23-year old in his 4th season in the league John f***ing Wall averaged 19.3 points with 8.8 assists on 43% shooting - and he had been the starter and focal point of that team for 3 years already. Adjusted for playing time, Schröder averaged 20.6 points with 7.3 assists on 45% shooting. For their first playoffs as a starter, Schröder performs flat-out crushes Walls (17 ppg, 7.7 apg on 37% shooting).

[Of course John Wall is a far better player and most likely will be overall. He was the consensus #1 pick in his draft and is a freak athlete. But this shows how unreasonable the doomsayers are about Schröders first year as a starter. ]

 

3. Schröder has already outpferformed his draft position at this point. The average career stats for the 17th pick are 397 games played (285, but should easily get well above that) with career averages of 20 mpg, 8 ppg, 4 rpg and 2 apg. Essentially a bench player (7-9th rotation slot). The average PER for the 17th pick is 12.4, apart from his paltry first year (5.8) Schröder was well above 15 in all season.

The best picks in the last 10 years for the 13-20th draft slots were (so 80 players total):

Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Kahwi Leonard, Nikola Vucevic, Danny Granger, Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague and Donatas Motiejunas.

We can argue about details, but Schröder comfortably projects to be in the Top-5 of that list when his career is over (Leonard and Granger being clearly better (tho Granger only played 6 real season), Vucevic and Teague being close).

 

Sources:

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

https://www.thescore.com/news/773112

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2498100-the-best-pick-at-every-nba-draft-position-over-the-last-decade

 

Tl;dr: For the umpteenth time: if you blame the 17th picked, 23-year old, first year starter for the Hawks not winning a Championship or going further in the play-offs or whatever, you're just being unreasonable.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by kurupt

[Diesel]

Quote

"It's a motion offense. It's malleable. It's ever-changing, in the sense that when players are moving and the ball is moving, 

IF the offense becomes a player movement ISO offense, I take it that it's not Budball. Honestly, a lot of times, Dennis looked like Iso Joe.  He pounded the ball while players moved until he got his opportunity to drive.    A large part of 62% of his offense was  ISO ball.  Seeing that we're not the Jazz of 92.. we don't have everybody involved in that two man PNR game.  So Budball is limited when that happens. 

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

If Dennis can't play PNR, why does he play PNR just fine with Millsap outside of having him ****post****?

Things that make you "HMMMMM"... #Agendas.

Let me do what the German was supposed to. If you think that Dennis was 15 when he seriously begun in the pros, let's begin and end with I'm 20 years old right now if so, and I'm 22. He'd have a 1995 birthday if so.

And again let me ask, am I really supposed to give a s*** about second leagues in Europe? College basketball teams regularly beat the heck out of them on tours, its worse than college.

I don't think anybody said that Dennis doesn't play PNR.

However, most of you seem to insinuate that Howard does not?  I found it intriguing and everybody watched it.. .Howard played PNR with Millsap.  He played PNR with Baze.  Hell, he even played PNR with Calderon.   BUT  Dennis wouldn't feed him on the PNR.

 

[kurupt]

vor 4 Minuten, Diesel sagte:

I don't think anybody said that Dennis doesn't play PNR.

However, most of you seem to insinuate that Howard does not?  I found it intriguing and everybody watched it.. .Howard played PNR with Millsap.  He played PNR with Baze.  Hell, he even played PNR with Calderon.   BUT  Dennis wouldn't feed him on the PNR.

 

f***ing LIAR.

Posted for the 3rd time now, but you will still ignore it.

Zitat

Now, to the matter at hand. Dwight Howard is 11^th in post touches in terms of frequency (excluding Edy Tavares with 1 game and Papagiannis with not enough minutes/plays). He is 33^rd in points per possession on post touches. There are only about 40 players that average 2 post touches per game and he is the 7th worst in PPP. This is due to his (at best) average 47% FG%, his high turnover rate and bad free throw shooting. You can also look at Post Touches (i.e. a pass and reception within the paint). Amongst players with at least 20 mpg, Howard leads the league here with 7.0 per game. Amongst the same group, Howard is also 1^st in the league with 8.0 Paint Touches (getting the ball within 8 5ft of the basket).

In my opinion this clearly shows that he arguably is overused on post-ups and not the other way around. He is essentially one of if not THE player in the league, that is most used as a traditional big man.

Now let’s look at him as a Pick&Roll player as the rolling man. Among 107 players that have more than 1 possession of this kind [per game] and have played more than 20 games, Howard has the 9^th lowest frequency as the roll man with 10.1%. Paul Millsap, for example, is at 23.4% (33^rd). Dwight Howard scores 1.18 PPP on these plays, which is 15^th among qualified players (Millsap has a paltry 0.86 PPP). Howards FG% of 66% is the 7^th best and his TO% 40% lower than on post-ups.

 

There is no way the Hawks should involve Howard in more post-plays. He already is used a ton compared to all other players and he is not very efficient at it.  He should be involved more often as the roll-man in P&R plays. But as Budenholzer already publicly said: he has to come out and set screens in the first place (and decent ones) to do that. His scoring would skyrocket. But Dwight doesn’t want that.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by kurupt

[Diesel]

Why is it so hard for us to tell the truth about Dennis??

Now... we have people who want to compare him to where he was drafted??  Really??  I mean if that's the case... MOOSE is a god and Baze who was not drafted is GOD ALMIGTY.

Back to reality.  IN all reality... RIGHT NOW.. Dennis doesn't CRACK the top 10 among PGs.. I believe we should all be able to agree with that.   For right now... he's somewhere between 15 and 20 in PG rankings...  Some may want to argue that but it's true.  For right now...HIS Defense is a liability... not because of his effort but mainly because of his size. 

Can he score?  Sure he can score.  Does he make others better?  Well For right now.. he doesn't.  IN fact, last year, he excelled in not making others better. 

Where can he improve??  He can improve in making others better.  Will he?  We don't know.

BUT... Stop treating Dennis as if he is an experienceless PG... that's a Lie.  At 18, he was playing beside Lynn Greer.   At 18, he was playing against guys like Alex Renfro and Stanley Burrell.   Yes, those guys were not professional NBA players, but they were MEN who excelled in the college game.    Let's just tell the truth... He played against some competition before coming to the US.  To listen to some of you, it sounds like he just left the skate park and was drafted by the Hawks.  NOT SO.

[KB21]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

IF the offense becomes a player movement ISO offense, I take it that it's not Budball. Honestly, a lot of times, Dennis looked like Iso Joe.  He pounded the ball while players moved until he got his opportunity to drive.    A large part of 62% of his offense was  ISO ball.  Seeing that we're not the Jazz of 92.. we don't have everybody involved in that two man PNR game.  So Budball is limited when that happens. 

 

No, it's not.

Dennis's usage rate is no higher than Tony Parker's in San Antonio in the same offense.  Both had around a 27-28 usage rate.  Both are heavy pick and roll point guards who penetrate and create for others off that penetration.  Tony was simply better at finishing at the basket and a physically stronger player.  

Of the players that had a usage rate of 27 or greater this past season, Dennis had the 5th highest assist percentage, so no.  He's not an Iso-Joe where he clears out the floor and looks to go one on one.  Dennis is an aggressively penetrates the lane off the pick and roll.

[Lurker]

Now I'm about to do something I also rarely do and agree with KB21, no matter how much PRO experience Euros have, they don't tend to peak at a younger age despite it. I can't produce the article, but he had an article that said that Euro pros don't peak while young.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, kurupt said:

f***ing LIAR.

Posted for the 3rd time now, but you will still ignore it.

 

While you are still being insulting... Do you know the difference between a PNR play and a Post up Play??  It seems like you obviously Don't.  Because while we were talking about PNRs... you polluted the board with some mess about Howard and Post up plays...  So let me help you:

 

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2017/1/11/14235784/breaking-down-the-paul-millsap-dwight-howard-pick-and-roll

 

Check out the PNR here.  It's Millsap to Dwight.  Dwight sets the pick.. then he rolls to the basket.  We call that a 5-4 PNR.  IF the pick is set well, Sap could go on to the basket himself.   However, if Dwight's man stay with Sap, then Dwight rolls to the basket and gets an open alley opp.   Check it out...so that you won't be ignorant about this matter. 

Here's another one with Baze...

This is Calderon on the PNR finding Howard on the drive.  Very Stockton like. 

Speaking of Calderon... here's how he was received:

Quote

"He's a great point guard," Hardaway Jr. said of Calderón, before adding that he thought Calderón would benefit from the additional pick-and-roll opportunities that he would see in Atlanta.

"But we still move the ball, we still cut, we still have a little bit of our principles from our old offense in New York, but this right here is more free, freedom to do what you want. I think he feels comfortable in it."

Hardaway also agreed with the idea that the two had the flexibility to share the on- and off-ball responsibilities as they have done in the first few games. Budenholzer thought Hardaway Jr. would be happy simply to be reunited with José Calderón, the person. 

"José is just an incredible human being and teammate," Budenholzer said, "so Timmy is probably excited to see someone like that added to the team. He's such an unselfish point guard. He's always looking for shooters."

Then Coach Bud broke into a smile. 

"The shooters like those guys."

It's a shame that we let him slip away this off-season.  I think he made a much better BU PG than Delaney.