The Tank Thread

[Bobby]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

San Antonio didn't tank, and it has not worked in Philly.  Sure, Philly has two good players from their years of losing, but they don't have a championship caliber team.  Therefore, it didn't work.

Golden State is also a situation where they did not tank to the bottom of the NBA standings.  They are a case of an organization that was bad for several years who finally found luck in the lottery with Curry.  Golden State never picked higher than 6th in any of their drafts from 2009 through 2012.  

So, we are left with Cleveland, who was terrible because LeBron left are are only good because LeBron came back, not because they "tanked".  So, what you are saying is that if we can sign LeBron James, tanking works.  

For the record San Antonio tanked for Tim Duncan. David Robinson had an injury and they went into full tank mode. Bud was on staff.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, Bobby said:

For the record San Antonio tanked for Tim Duncan. David Robinson had an injury and they went into full tank mode. Bud was on staff.

That was not a tank.  They lost David Robinson for the entire season, and they were bad because of that injury along with Sean Elliott's injury.  They did not scorch the earth and get rid of everyone that could actually play on their team.  They did not intentionally lose games.  The lost games because they lost a 25+ win player along with a 10+ win player for the year.  When they got Duncan, they added him to an already great team with the healthy Robinson and Elliott returning.

[High5]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

The data on that alternative you speak of shows that you have a 19% chance of building a championship caliber team when you start as a 35-44 win team, whereas you have a 10% chance of building a championship caliber team when you start as a sub 25 win team.  So, Atlanta would have essentially doubled their chances of being a championship team within the next 5 years had they not tanked and actually attempted to put a competitive team on the court this year.  

Of all of the baloney this has to be the phoniest. We made the playoffs 10 years in a row and we were getting further away from a championship, not closer. Our already weak roster was getting older and more expensive. 

Now looking at the champions during our illustrious streak...the Warriors won 29 games to get Curry and 26 games the year after. The Cavs won 17 games to get LeBron and then won 19, 21, and 24 before they had enough talent to bring him back. The Spurs won 20 games to get Duncan. The Heat won 25 games to get Wade and then dropped to 15 before LeBron and Bosh joined him. The Mavs won 20 and 19 games to kick off the Dirk era. The Celtics won 24 games and then the championship the very next season. Only the Lakers avoided those depths, but good luck replicating that.

We should've won at least a few championships with all of those made up percentages in our favor. 

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, High5 said:

Of all of the baloney this has to be the phoniest. We made the playoffs 10 years in a row and we were getting further away from a championship, not closer. Our already weak roster was getting older and more expensive. 

Now looking at the champions during our illustrious streak...the Warriors won 29 games to get Curry and 26 games the year after. The Cavs won 17 games to get LeBron and then won 19, 21, and 24 before they had enough talent to bring him back. The Spurs won 20 games to get Duncan. The Heat won 25 games to get Wade and then dropped to 15 before LeBron and Bosh joined him. The Mavs won 20 and 19 games to kick off the Dirk era. The Celtics won 24 games and then the championship the very next season. Only the Lakers avoided those depths, but good luck replicating that.

We should've won at least a few championships with all of those made up percentages in our favor. 

Oh, the Hawks are definitely FARTHER away from a championship now than they have been over the past 10 years.  That is for sure, and there is no hope of it getting much better over the next 5 years.  

Those are not made up percentages either.  

So, basically, what you are saying is that because of their tanking, the Hawks are going to be able to sign LeBron James in 2-3 years and win a championship.

 

[High5]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Oh, the Hawks are definitely FARTHER away from a championship now than they have been over the past 10 years.  That is for sure, and there is no hope of it getting much better over the next 5 years.  

Those are not made up percentages either.  

So, basically, what you are saying is that because of their tanking, the Hawks are going to be able to sign LeBron James in 2-3 years and win a championship.

 

There's the blind eye to logic and basic facts that we've been missing lately. Glad to have you back. 

[KB21]

13 minutes ago, High5 said:

There's the blind eye to logic and basic facts that we've been missing lately. Glad to have you back. 

Those who ignore the data are the ones who are blind to basic facts.  

[davis171]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Oh, the Hawks are definitely FARTHER away from a championship now than they have been over the past 10 years.  That is for sure, and there is no hope of it getting much better over the next 5 years.  

Those are not made up percentages either.  

So, basically, what you are saying is that because of their tanking, the Hawks are going to be able to sign LeBron James in 2-3 years and win a championship.

 

So you want us to stay mediocre forever? There are literally youtube videos explaining how the hawks are the most average franchise ever. The perception of the hawks is a borderline playoff team with a good coach but never enough to win anything. Regardless of if you think tanking works paying Millsap 30+ mill and Dwight 20+ mill would be stupid if it means continuing being an average franchise that makes the playoffs and gets swept by Lebron ever year. We need to begin valuing our cap space and not handing it out to players who will not help us win anything less than championships but the major piece of this is finding the player to build the pieces around and that is easier early in drafts not that it is the only way maybe just the easiest. 

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, davis171 said:

So you want us to stay mediocre forever? There are literally youtube videos explaining how the hawks are the most average franchise ever. The perception of the hawks is a borderline playoff team with a good coach but never enough to win anything. Regardless of if you think tanking works paying Millsap 30+ mill and Dwight 20+ mill would be stupid if it means continuing being an average franchise that makes the playoffs and gets swept by Lebron ever year. We need to begin valuing our cap space and not handing it out to players who will not help us win anything less than championships but the major piece of this is finding the player to build the pieces around and that is easier early in drafts not that it is the only way maybe just the easiest. 

If it was the easiest, then why don't the teams picking at the top of the draft actually get better?

[MaceCase]

12 hours ago, KB21 said:

Not all of those 8 teams are for real tanking, but even if they were, those teams are making a mockery of the NBA and the spirit of competition.  They are cheating the fans that pay their hard earned money to either see them play live or spend money on TV packages so they can watch them play.  It's an absolute disgrace, and the fact of the matter is, the strategy does not work.  The tank is cloaked in the premise that you are doing so to get a star player, but you are more likely to get an Andrew Wiggins than you are a player that can actually help you win.  Of those teams who are tanking, Phoenix is currently in the midst of an 8 year playoff drought.  Orlando is in a 6 year playoff drought.  Dallas is going on 2 years.  Sacramento is in a 12 year playoff drought.  Brooklyn is in year three and hasn't won more than 21 games in any of those years.  This is what tanking gets you, folks.  You get on that lottery treadmill, and it is hard as hell to get off it.  

You're talking about the "lottery treadmill" by giving prime examples of teams that chased the playoff treadmill and failed miserably.  These are all perfect examples of what most sensible people saw in the future for the Hawks and worked to actively avoid if at minimum get ahead of.  What does it say when in the end the treadmillers end up right next to the "real tankers"?
 

 

[davis171]

33 minutes ago, KB21 said:

If it was the easiest, then why don't the teams picking at the top of the draft actually get better?

Um 76ers are set. Their best players are just 23 and 21 and will give them the opportunity to compete for championships as soon as Lebron retires or leaves the east. They also have a top 10 pick this year. Wait until they are 25-26 they will be competing for championships. You are just being naive if you think the path the hawks were going down lead to championships. I also never said that 100% of draft picks hit however they are more likely. This is like saying most players playing are lower than a top 5 pick or saying most players playing were 3 star recruits or less. Yeah maybe true but I bet the percentages are a lot higher. So AKA what @KB21 is saying is you can get more talent drafting at 20 than 3. Yes, you do get more talent typically at the top of the draft. Btw quote is funny considering the only reason the Thunder have had success is because of lottery picks Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook which is exactly what the 76ers did give them 3 years please.

Edited February 25, 2018 by davis171

[Macknsweetjones]

Its people this thread that really want to win games lol. Which is very stupid, hawks wont be anything without getting high draft picks period.

[CBAreject]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

The data on that alternative you speak of shows that you have a 19% chance of building a championship caliber team when you start as a 35-44 win team, whereas you have a 10% chance of building a championship caliber team when you start as a sub 25 win team.  So, Atlanta would have essentially doubled their chances of being a championship team within the next 5 years had they not tanked and actually attempted to put a competitive team on the court this year.  

This is intuitive.  All teams that tank will either fail or succeed in getting franchise talent. The ones that fail will tank again.  The ones that succeed will become 35 win teams on the way to contention.  Becoming a 35 win team means that the tank worked out early on, so the chances for contention go up.  

 

If im missing something direct me to the data so I can see if I’m oversimplifying things.  

[CBAreject]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

None of those teams have a remote chance of winning the championship. 

Neither did we with an aging Millsap and Howard.  Gosh it’s almost like you judge things by totally different standards based on how much you want them to be true or false. 

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

Heck, one of them is so strong that Hawks fans are currently concerned that they will fall out of the playoff race with the Jimmy Butler injury.  Isn't it something that out of all those top 5 picks Minnesota had, their best player was a free agent acquisition who was drafted with the 30th overall pick in 2011?

 

There is no planet on which Jimmy Butler is a better player than Karl Anthony-Towns.  Now you’re just trolling.  

[Lurker]

Sports are also so cutthroat that it's championship or bust for most of us. Sometimes, we don't enjoy even putting up respectable records. Especially when it's like last year with the multiple sad blowouts due to no effort.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Lurker

[DBac]

Put this together out of boredom the other day. Yearly VORP (value over replacement player) for each draft slot from 1985 (first lotto year) to 2010

 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Sports are also so cutthroat that it's championship or bust for most of us. Sometimes, we don't enjoy even putting up respectable records. Especially when it's like last year with the multiple sad blowouts due to no effort.

Well, you will enjoy the next five years since you enjoy busting so much, because that's where the Hawks will be.  Busting out on the lottery treadmill.

[Lurker]

I enjoy thinking I'm going to have a good team but having to watch listless, careless performances by divas that don't gaf but with a 43 win team a heck of a lot less then a team that has 0 wins. I'm serious.

[KB21]

10 minutes ago, CBAreject said:

Neither did we with an aging Millsap and Howard.  Gosh it’s almost like you judge things by totally different standards based on how much you want them to be true or false. 

 

There is no planet on which Jimmy Butler is a better player than Karl Anthony-Towns.  Now you’re just trolling.  

Butler is absolutely a better player than Karl Anthony Towns.   The Timberwolves are a -8 in point differential when Butler isn't on the court.

[KB21]

1 hour ago, davis171 said:

Um 76ers are set. Their best players are just 23 and 21 and will give them the opportunity to compete for championships as soon as Lebron retires or leaves the east. They also have a top 10 pick this year. Wait until they are 25-26 they will be competing for championships. You are just being naive if you think the path the hawks were going down lead to championships. I also never said that 100% of draft picks hit however they are more likely. This is like saying most players playing are lower than a top 5 pick or saying most players playing were 3 star recruits or less. Yeah maybe true but I bet the percentages are a lot higher. So AKA what @KB21 is saying is you can get more talent drafting at 20 than 3. Yes, you do get more talent typically at the top of the draft. Btw quote is funny considering the only reason the Thunder have had success is because of lottery picks Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook which is exactly what the 76ers did give them 3 years please.

Give them 3 years?  After they have already taken 5 years to get to this point?  That's my entire point.  Tanking doesn't work if it still takes you 8-10 years to get to where you want to be.  

[CBAreject]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Give them 3 years?  After they have already taken 5 years to get to this point?  That's my entire point.  Tanking doesn't work if it still takes you 8-10 years to get to where you want to be.  

We got to the conference finals once in 50 years, and we got brutally swept, so did our method “work”?