Hawks Free Agent Targets

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Supes isn’t against Collins. 

Saying Isaac is better than Collins is blasphemy. So I have come to the conclusion, despite his constant sugar coating of the issue, that he is. My opinion and I am welcome to it.

[kg01]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

But his defense is exceptional. If John was as good as Isaac on offense as Isaac on defense, we wouldn't be having this convo. John would be a max cat. Elite offense>>>Elite defense in the NBA. All day, everyday. No one would question it either. John would waltz into the All Star starting five next to Giannis in that case. 

I think this is probably why we disagree.  I don't think you have to be "elite" on offense to be valued higher than an elite defender.

Of course, all teams want elite defenders and I'm sure that's what they tell people.  However, their actions, and payrolls, prove they don't value elite defenders higher than guys who are superior offensively.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

We know what you think. Isaac has a better chance to make a All Star team than Collins. Utter Disbelief. 

I never said that at all. I don't think either will ever make the All Star team. Isaac has a shot if his team was elite and he had a superstar with him where coaches would be like, yeah, Isaac is that guy but on defense. I mean, look at who didn't make it in the East this year. Jimmy Butler and Bradley Beal. These players are superior to Collins and Isaac. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I think this is probably why we disagree.  I don't think you have to be "elite" on offense to be valued higher than an elite defender.

Of course, all teams want elite defenders and I'm sure that's what they tell people.  However, their actions, and payrolls, prove they don't value elite defenders higher than guys who are superior offensively.

BS

Towns>>>Gobert

Harden>>>Draymond

Trae Young>>>Kris Dunn

That said, position is key. 

I am taking an elite defender and a below average offensive player at PF 10/10 times over a very good offensive player and below average defender. very good offense isn't that good if your defense is below average. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

am taking an elite defender and a below average offensive player at PF 10/10 times over a very good offensive player and below average defender. very good offense isn't that good if your defense is

So why do you want Toppin over Gwu?  

Ur losing me here Supes.

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Are you out of your f***ing mind? Also, both are elite offensive players. Elite offensive players are everyone needs in today's NBA. 

 

I love John. I don't know how many times I have to say, I want to KEEP John. I just don't want nothing to do with him at a higher wage than 20 million. He's the impact of a high end role player with clear limitations. Overpaying guys vastly is how you end up killing your franchise. 

I think you are the one who is out of your mind. Total BS is all this Isaac vs Collins is and your fake love for John is only because from a statistical standpoint you cannot discredit him any further.

But by God give us a Thabo clone like Isaac and you are full of salt and vinegar to discredit him. Orlando would send us three Isaacs for Collins. Now get the f*** outta here with that nonsense.

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

So why do you want Toppin over Gwu?  

Ur losing me here Supes.

It all depends on if its his player or not. No rhyme or reason. If he likes him, he can be exactly like Collins. If he likes him, he can be exactly like Isaac.

[kg01]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

BS

Towns>>>Gobert

Harden>>>Draymond

Trae Young>>>Kris Dunn

That said, position is key. 

I am taking an elite defender and a below average offensive player at PF 10/10 times over a very good offensive player and below average defender. very good offense isn't that good if your defense is below average. 

You're confusing me, KS.  Basically everything you posted agrees with what I'm saying.

Are you saying, at PF, you'd prefer an elite defender over a below avg. offensive guy?

On that we agree.  But that's also not what I said.  I said an above average offense guy is more valuable than an elite defender, as evidenced by NBA contracts.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

So why do you want Toppin over Gwu?  

Ur losing me here Supes.

You mean why do I want the best modern offensive PF to have entered the draft over Okongwu? Is it really that hard. 

Toppin with Trae is a 10 on offense potentially without hitting his swing marks. That's the same exact rating at Trae on offense RIGHT NOW. 

So why would I not want another offensive impact like Trae on offense is the better question you should ask me. 

Oyneka is my favorite prospect in this class outside of Toppin. So you know I am high on him. 7/8 with two swings. Can play both 4/5. Can be a very good player on both ends of the court. Why wouldn't I want the Big O? I do want the Big O. 

But a chance at having an elite offense for the next 12 years is far more appeasing especially when we have Reddish, Hunter, and Capela already starting. 

9 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I think you are the one who is out of your mind. Total BS is all this Isaac vs Collins is and your fake love for John is only because from a statistical standpoint you cannot discredit him any further.

But by God give us a Thabo clone like Isaac and you are full of salt and vinegar to discredit him. Orlando would send us three Isaacs for Collins. Now get the f*** outta here with that nonsense.

Isaac is way f***ing better impact wise than Thabo. You keep belittling other players at levels most around the NBA don't agree with. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[AHF]

For Collins, I think he'll be a strong candidate to be an All-Star in the next few years like Domantas Sabonis, Bam Adebayo, Nikola Vucevic, David Lee, etc.

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Isaac is way f***ing better impact wise than Thabo. 

Then explain this to me. The brittle Isaac played in 32 games this season. His impact was Orlando went 13 and 19 for those 32 games.

Like I said, total BS Supes and I am calling you on it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/isaacjo01/splits/2020

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

For Collins, I think he'll be a strong candidate to be an All-Star in the next few years like Domantas Sabonis, Bam Adebayo, Nikola Vucevic, David Lee, etc.

Sabonis was giving you 18.5/12.4/5. 

Adebayo is an all around monster

Vucevic is an one timer and was ORL best player, John will never be Atlanta's best player again. I doubt he's even Atlanta 2nd best player ever again. 

If the East and the NBA ever got that weak again when David Lee made it, then yes, John has a shot. Then again, the NBA is a lot stronger so no, John has no chance in hell.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Then explain this to me. The brittle Isaac played in 32 games this season. His impact was Orlando went 13 and 19 for those 32 games.

Like I said, total BS Supes and I am calling you on it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/isaacjo01/splits/2020

Look at the WAR numbers here if you want to see metrics that Supes likes:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/

3.1 WAR for Isaac vs 1.7 WAR for JC (note that JC was projected to be higher this year)

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Then explain this to me. The brittle Isaac played in 32 games this season. His impact was Orlando went 13 and 19 for those 32 games.

Like I said, total BS Supes and I am calling you on it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/isaacjo01/splits/2020

LOL. This is Hawksquawk babble. Bring this up to Rob Lowe and they will ban you for the discussion. 

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Look at the WAR numbers here if you want to see metrics that Supes likes:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/

3.1 WAR for Isaac vs 1.7 WAR for JC (note that JC was projected to be higher this year)

Numbers vs Win/Loss, give me win/loss. The Isaac lead Magic went 13 and 19 in his 32 games. Enough said.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Then again, the NBA is a lot stronger so no, John has no chance in hell.

I wouldn’t put a ceiling on JC. I think he has a legit shot at future all star appearances. He’s got a lot of skill for a big Supes comon man you gotta admit that.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Buzzard said:

Numbers vs Win/Loss, give me win/loss. The Isaac lead Magic went 13 and 19 in his 32 games. Enough said.

That's Aaron Gordon/Jon Isaac fit issues more than anything if you been keeping up with the Magic. We will have the same issues next year with Collins and Capela. 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Sabonis was giving you 18.5/12.4/5. 

Adebayo is an all around monster

Vucevic is an one timer and was ORL best player, John will never be Atlanta's best player again. I doubt he's even Atlanta 2nd best player ever again. 

If the East and the NBA ever got that weak again when David Lee made it, then yes, John has a shot. Then again, the NBA is a lot stronger so no, John has no chance in hell.

Collins can easily make a similar case to Sabonis based on a lot of metrics.

Sabonis:  20.7 PER, 0.168 WS/48, 3.2 BPM, 2.1 VORP

Collins: 23.5 PER, 0.174 WS/48, 3.1 BPM, 1.7 VORP

I tend to think the raw numbers make the biggest case for players in the All-Star game, though, and 21.5, 10.1 is in the same ballpark as Sabonis.

Collins is a year younger and still improving as well.  He is by no means a no-brainer for the ASG but it is very easy for me to see a path for him, especially in a year where injuries factor in.

[Buzzard]

46 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That's Aaron Gordon/Jon Isaac fit issues more than anything if you been keeping up with the Magic. We will have the same issues next year with Collins and Capela. 

Always an excuse for something with you. Isaac averaged 29 Minutes in those wins and 30 in the losses. The Magic have a better win/loss record without him.

They are currently 30 and 35. Subtract the 13 and 19 with Isaac and they are 17 and 16 without him. His impact on winning was crap.

 

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, AHF said:

Collins can easily make a similar case to Sabonis based on a lot of metrics.

Sabonis:  20.7 PER, 0.168 WS/48, 3.2 BPM, 2.1 VORP

Collins: 23.5 PER, 0.174 WS/48, 3.1 BPM, 1.7 VORP

I tend to think the raw numbers make the biggest case for players in the All-Star game, though, and 21.5, 10.1 is in the same ballpark as Sabonis.

Collins is a year younger and still improving as well.  He is by no means a no-brainer for the ASG but it is very easy for me to see a path for him, especially in a year where injuries factor in.

That's not how they are seen. Sabonis was the Pacers best player and they were a top 5 seed. He was the best man up like Vooch. When is John going to be in that situation with Atlanta? 

Sabonis literally was a center giving you all around performance. Chances are, when Vic is back, Victor will be their rep. Butler will likely get Sabonis spot and that's that. 

Factoring injuries, there's possibilities but there is a whole tier of players in that tier with John like Kevin Love, Turner, Lauri, Griffin, Randle, Gordon, Issac, Hayward, Brown, O.G., and many others. Not to mention the up and coming guys like Cam, Rui, Washington, WCJ, etc. 

Teague been an all star but I would have never guessed it after his 3rd year but in reality, he was a fake all star like Korver. He was a part of something special but he was never a legit All Star. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by NBASupes