Lebron the Goat? NAAAAH....

[Diesel]

The rankings go like this:

1.  Jordan.   - GOAT...

2.   Kobe

3.  Kareem

4.   Lebron. 

5.  Magic

 

The case against Lebron....

Finals wins means a whole lot because it takes a lot to win a finals.   Lebron and the Heat loss to the Mavs.   That's a period... never should have happened.   If it were not for Ray Allen, they would have lost to the Spurs.   If it were not for D Green getting T'd up after Lebron stepped on him and Bogut getting injured for the season, Lebron and the Cavs would have lost and the Warriors would have three peated. 

No Goat contender has ever Put together a superteam.  Lebron has done it everywhere he went.   Miami... He called a summit to pick his team and he took Wade and Bosh.. two top 5 players at the time.   Cleveland.. He handpicked Kevin to be his PF.    LAL.. after a losing season, he begged AD to come play with him. 

Jordan played with the teams he was given.

Kobe played with the teams he was given. 

What puts Kobe 2nd is this:

He beat the big three of Allen, KG, and Pierce with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol!

The year before, with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol... The Lakers beat the Magic that Beat Lebron's Cavs in 6.   IN 5 games. 

What Puts Kareem 3rd is this:

Most dominant shot in the game.   Put Wilt out of the game.   Banned the Dunk because of Kareem.  If the NBA banned the dunk... Lebron wouldn't have a playoff team. 

 

 

[AHF]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:41 AM, Diesel said:

The rankings go like this:

1.  Jordan.   - GOAT...

2.   Kobe

3.  Kareem

4.   Lebron. 

5.  Magic

 

The case against Lebron....

Finals wins means a whole lot because it takes a lot to win a finals.   Lebron and the Heat loss to the Mavs.   That's a period... never should have happened.   If it were not for Ray Allen, they would have lost to the Spurs.   If it were not for D Green getting T'd up after Lebron stepped on him and Bogut getting injured for the season, Lebron and the Cavs would have lost and the Warriors would have three peated. 

No Goat contender has ever Put together a superteam.  Lebron has done it everywhere he went.   Miami... He called a summit to pick his team and he took Wade and Bosh.. two top 5 players at the time.   Cleveland.. He handpicked Kevin to be his PF.    LAL.. after a losing season, he begged AD to come play with him. 

Jordan played with the teams he was given.

Kobe played with the teams he was given. 

What puts Kobe 2nd is this:

He beat the big three of Allen, KG, and Pierce with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol!

The year before, with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol... The Lakers beat the Magic that Beat Lebron's Cavs in 6.   IN 5 games. 

What Puts Kareem 3rd is this:

Most dominant shot in the game.   Put Wilt out of the game.   Banned the Dunk because of Kareem.  If the NBA banned the dunk... Lebron wouldn't have a playoff team. 

 

 

Kobe isn't in the top 5 and isn't close to the others on that list.  I am with you for Jordan as the GOAT but Kobe was a poor man's Jordan.  (Which is still all-time good.)

[Diesel]

47 minutes ago, AHF said:

Kobe isn't in the top 5 and isn't close to the others on that list.  I am with you for Jordan as the GOAT but Kobe was a poor man's Jordan.  (Which is still all-time good.)

I believe that you disregard the fact that Kobe won a championship virtually by himself.   There were no other top 50 all time players on that team.   No other Champion can say that.   Not even Jordan.  That and the other 4 rings is what put Kobe second. 

[Spud2nique]

1. Jordan

2. Russell

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. Hakeem

6. Oscar

[niremetal]

1. Magic

2. LeBron

3T. MJ

3T. Wilt

5. Oscar

 

Here's my GOAT yardstick--you have the #1 pick in an all-time fantasy draft. Because you're #1, you have no idea who's going to be available when your next pick rolls around. Oh, and also, to make it a thought experiment where comparing across eras makes sense, let's also say you are going to be put in a time machine and you have no idea what era's rules and norms you'll be playing under when you come out of it.

In that position, I pick Magic or LeBron over MJ simply because I think there are more ways to build a title contender around them in pretty much any given era. Having a big point guard who can shoot, pass, and dribble anywhere from the perimeter to the low post means that you can almost put any collection of good players around them in pretty much any era and make the team into a contender. To me, Magic's performance in Game 6 of the Finals his rookie year, when he moved from PG to C and still dominated, was emblematic of what made him inimitable. Give him literally any role on the basketball court, and he could play it at a superstar level.

LeBron is the player who comes closest to that, but LeBron clearly is a "score-first" guy. Magic is like Trae to me--a "whatever option is most likely to result in a bucket for our team" guy. I think that mentality is more conducive to winning titles.

Wilt is, simply put, the most freakish talent in NBA history. His combination of size, athleticism, and strength has still never been equalled. But he couldn't shoot, and I don't know how that would affect his value today.

MJ would be great in any era, but I really think his dominance was in part a function of the fact that he played during the illegal defense era, which meant that teams weren't allowed to cheat off the ball to help against him (and it also magnified the importance of one-on-one perimeter defensive skills). That made it way easier for him to get to the rim than today, when all the weakside defenders can cheat 10 feet off their man and build "walls" against opposing drivers. Even in his era, I think MJ needed a fairly specific supporting cast (and a system designed to space defenders even further away from him) to succeed at the highest level. Substitute Pippen out with, say, Barkley or David Robinson, and I don't think the Bulls are winning three-peats, because Pippen's versatility on both ends of the floor took a lot of pressure off of MJ at both ends.

Edited September 3, 2021 by niremetal

[niremetal]

Deleted

Edited September 3, 2021 by niremetal

[Diesel]

20 hours ago, niremetal said:

1. Magic

2. LeBron

3T. MJ

3T. Wilt

5. Oscar

 

Here's my GOAT yardstick--you have the #1 pick in an all-time fantasy draft. Because you're #1, you have no idea who's going to be available when your next pick rolls around. Oh, and also, to make it a thought experiment where comparing across eras makes sense, let's also say you are going to be put in a time machine and you have no idea what era's rules and norms you'll be playing under when you come out of it.

In that position, I pick Magic or LeBron over MJ simply because I think there are more ways to build a title contender around them in pretty much any given era. Having a big point guard who can shoot, pass, and dribble anywhere from the perimeter to the low post means that you can almost put any collection of good players around them in pretty much any era and make the team into a contender. To me, Magic's performance in Game 6 of the Finals his rookie year, when he moved from PG to C and still dominated, was emblematic of what made him inimitable. Give him literally any role on the basketball court, and he could play it at a superstar level.

LeBron is the player who comes closest to that, but LeBron clearly is a "score-first" guy. Magic is like Trae to me--a "whatever option is most likely to result in a bucket for our team" guy. I think that mentality is more conducive to winning titles.

Wilt is, simply put, the most freakish talent in NBA history. His combination of size, athleticism, and strength has still never been equalled. But he couldn't shoot, and I don't know how that would affect his value today.

MJ would be great in any era, but I really think his dominance was in part a function of the fact that he played during the illegal defense era, which meant that teams weren't allowed to cheat off the ball to help against him (and it also magnified the importance of one-on-one perimeter defensive skills). That made it way easier for him to get to the rim than today, when all the weakside defenders can cheat 10 feet off their man and build "walls" against opposing drivers. Even in his era, I think MJ needed a fairly specific supporting cast (and a system designed to space defenders even further away from him) to succeed at the highest level. Substitute Pippen out with, say, Barkley or David Robinson, and I don't think the Bulls are winning three-peats, because Pippen's versatility on both ends of the floor took a lot of pressure off of MJ at both ends.

Dude.. You lose.

Lebron has lost 6 championships.  

Lebron is the only person on any of these lists that has built his own teams.  He has done it three times.  Nobody else pulled a Justice League.. went out recruited and built their own team.  And if you're going to build your own superteam.. you ought to win.   He took Dwayne Wade & Bosh and lost to Dallas.   Dallas had Dirk and Jason Terry.   Jason Terry gave Lebron the Business in that series.

In fact, many of his championship wins are questionable or lucky.  He got Lucky against the Spurs.  Thank God that he was able to goad Draymond into reacting and Bogut got hurt.  The Bubble Championship is all about guys not wanting to play in the Bubble. 

Off Lebron.

MJ is the only player who adapted his game to what it needed to be.  He went from primarily a dunker to the most efficient midrange assassin ever. 

I give more respect to Wilt now... He was crazy good.   Reranking...

1.  MJ  - G.O.A.T.

2.  Kareem - They banned the Dunk because of him.. and he developed the sky hook. 

3.  Wilt  _ he did everything. He even cleaned the arena after every game... 

4. Russell - Won the most but was surrounded by talent.

5.  Magic

6.  Kobe  - Won at times with no talent. 

7.  Lebron. 

8.  Bird...  Slightly behind Lebron. 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

 

I heard Skip Bayless let loose the secret. 

Lebron controls the Narrative. 

A few weeks ago SI unveiled it's top 5 of all time (NBA).  No need to revisit that.. but After hearing from a multitude of NBA players who say MJ is the goat and Lebron is not close, the question becomes... why does Lebron get so much press.  Well, according to Skip, Lebron's circle controls the media. 

Think about it.. If Lebron and Rich Paul paid pundits to always put him in a great light.   If he had SAS and Shannon Sharpe and a few others on the payroll and their job is to always paint Lebron as the greatest of all time.  How long would it take to echo throughout a generation that does no research?

How quickly would you forget that Lebron has Lost 6 chips?

How quickly would you forget that Lebron is a career 73% FT shooter and has been sub 70% for 5 out of the last 6 years?

How quickly would you forget that Lebron is a career 34.6% 3 pt shooter?

How quickly would you forget that Lebron has only lead the league in scoring 1 time in 18 seasons?

How quickly would you forget that Lebron who has played 18 seasons is 43 in rebounding?

Let's put that last one in perspective.  Shawn Marion who was a lot smaller and played in 200+ less games than Lebron has over 1500 more rebounds than Lebron...

When you close out the echo chamber and just look unbiasedly at the numbers, Lebron isn't top 3.   Maybe not top 5.   He's a player who has gotten where he has gotten because of longevity.  He's the least injured player in the history of the game.  He has controlled the narrative.  He has also controlled the personnel on his teams. 

[macdaddy]

Let me say that on the court Lebron is one of my most hated players.   But you are underselling his greatness by a lot.   MJ and Kobe didn't 'build their own teams'?   Well they had someone to do that for them.   Are we just ignoring that the Lakers went out and got the most dominant big in the modern era to pair with Kobe?  

Lebron took a Mike Brown team to the finals that was full of truly crummy players.  Larry Hughes was the second best player on the team.    Look at the finals rosters of the Cavs teams he took to the finals in his second stint.   They had no business being there.   They probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him some of those years.   

I can't believe i'm defending Lebron.   I'm not saying he's better than anyone in particular but let's not act like he hasn't dominated this era.   

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Let me say that on the court Lebron is one of my most hated players.   But you are underselling his greatness by a lot.   MJ and Kobe didn't 'build their own teams'?   Well they had someone to do that for them.   Are we just ignoring that the Lakers went out and got the most dominant big in the modern era to pair with Kobe?  

Lebron took a Mike Brown team to the finals that was full of truly crummy players.  Larry Hughes was the second best player on the team.    Look at the finals rosters of the Cavs teams he took to the finals in his second stint.   They had no business being there.   They probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him some of those years.   

I can't believe i'm defending Lebron.   I'm not saying he's better than anyone in particular but let's not act like he hasn't dominated this era.   

Uhm...

Kobe and Shaq came in together... that was the genius of Jerry West.   He traded away most of his team for a draft pick... Kobe Bean Bryant.   Then with the savings, he made an offer to Shaq who was disgruntled.  But Kobe didn't initiate it...

Lebron has been the initiator of every team he has been on since Cleveland.

He called a summit of all the best players in the league and handpicked Bosh and Wade. 

He handpicked Love went he went back to Cleveland to play with Irving. 

After 1 year in LAL, he handpicked AD and Rondo.

Then he handpicked Russ...

Nobody has ever had the amount of control that Lebron has.  Why do you think Magic got fired? Why do you think he left Miami?

He Left Miami because Pat Riley said I'm not going to bow down to you and your inner circle running things. 

Magic was fired because Magic wouldn't do everything that Lebron told him to do. 

 

Kobe got Andrew Bynum a ring!!  There was no other Laker in that series that averaged 20 points.   Most of them were under 10 ppg. And they beat Boston and the big three.   The year before that, they damn near Swept Dwight Howard's Magic.   And Kobe was the only Laker over 20 ppg. 

Kobe won 2 rings with no Help.. No Assistance.  He didn't have a Dwayne Wade or Kyrie Irving or Ray Allen making the difference for him. 

 

Back to Lebron.

Sub 70% from the FT...Where they do that at.

Ben Simmons is a 60% FT shooter.   Just a little lower than Lebron.  But Ben Simmons plays much better defense than Lebron... However, somehow, Lebron is in the GOAT conversation and Simmons looks like a goat.  You know why?  Lebron controls the Media.  You will never hear them talk about Lebron's FT% on ESPN...He owns what the media says.   And if there's anything bad ever said about him... they spin it quickly into a good thing. 

Like 10 Championship finals... But he's only won 4.  One of those (the bubble) should have an asterisk nobody really wanted to play because of COVID.  LAC mailed it in after several of their players refused to play... another (GS1 ) should be noted that the League suspended Green for a crucial game 7 for responding to a foul that Lebron committed.   First time that a technical foul has been carried over to the player being suspended for the next game.  Asterisk...   And a third  championship... should have Ray Allen's picture on it.   He has lost as many finals as Jordan has played in.. yet that's seen as a good thing.   Jordan never lost a finals. 

The telling story is... The Lost to Dallas.  Come on man. 

Lebron is not that great.   He has played Long enough to amass several accolades and he controls the media. 

 

 

[macdaddy]

I don't understand why Lebron recruiting players has anything to do with how good he is.   Just because Kobe didn't personally recruit Shaq doesn't make their being teammates any less devastating to the rest of the league.   

I'm honestly not getting the point.  Maybe Lebron should be considered the greatest GM of all time?

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I don't understand why Lebron recruiting players has anything to do with how good he is.   Just because Kobe didn't personally recruit Shaq doesn't make their being teammates any less devastating to the rest of the league.   

I'm honestly not getting the point.  Maybe Lebron should be considered the greatest GM of all time?

Let me help you...  It's called tampering.   When GMs and Coaches "recruit" they get penalized and fined by the league.  Lebron makes deals with players mid season to come and join him...  

https://www.insider.com/lebron-james-recruited-stars-lakers-war-room-house-2021-9

When Lebron goes and recruits players under contract to other teams, that is also tampering.  He talks with him during the Allstar break, he works out with him in the Summer, then all the sudden, Westbrook is asking his team for a trade?

Just imagine... If Lebron starting talking to Trae.  Then the next thing you know Trae says.. I'm going to not play another game unless I'm traded to the Lakers.   Do you not see the danger in that?

Kobe never did that. 

MJ definitely never did that.   As strong as the Celtics were, Jordan never tried to recruit Hakeem to come and play with him.  That's the I can't win punk stuff that Lebron does.

[macdaddy]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

Kobe never did that. 

MJ definitely never did that.

Ok yeah sure.  You really believe that?    Again what does this have to do with his performance on the court?  

[Diesel]

On 10/29/2021 at 10:14 AM, macdaddy said:

Ok yeah sure.  You really believe that?    Again what does this have to do with his performance on the court?  

Yeah.. I do.. look at the players who Kobe and MJ played along side of??  Jordan never got to play with Barkley, Ewing, Olajawon, or Payton.   Their attitude was of such that they felt like they didn't need anybody else.

 

Lebron is a very good player... but he's a better GM.

Look at Lebron in Cleveland.  The first time.   The first time, he did not act as GM.  No Chips.   If Lebron didn't start being the GM and putting his teams together, he would have gone down in history as a very good player who could never win the big game.  Sorta like Iverson.  Lebron would have had great stat-lines but no championships on his resume'.   He needed Wade and Bosh.  He needed Kyrie and Love.  He needed AD.  Because Lebron by himself doesn't have the killer instinct to win the big games.  You give Lebron the team that Kobe had for his last two chips and Lebron would go out in the 2nd round of the playoffs. 

The point is... Because he's a good GM.. you can give him credit for many of those accolades that he has.. Had he not tampered, he'd still be a very good player but would have none of the hardware that could legitimize him as the G.O.A.T.   You can't be the GOAT if you don't earn the title.

 

 

[macdaddy]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.. I do.. look at the players who Kobe and MJ played along side of??  Jordan never got to play with Barkley, Ewing, Olajawon, or Payton.   Their attitude was of such that they felt like they didn't need anybody else.

 

Lebron is a very good player... but he's a better GM.

Look at Lebron in Cleveland.  The first time.   The first time, he did not act as GM.  No Chips.   If Lebron didn't start being the GM and putting his teams together, he would have gone down in history as a very good player who could never win the big game.  Sorta like Iverson.  Lebron would have had great stat-lines but no championships on his resume'.   He needed Wade and Bosh.  He needed Kyrie and Love.  He needed AD.  Because Lebron by himself doesn't have the killer instinct to win the big games.  You give Lebron the team that Kobe had for his last two chips and Lebron would go out in the 2nd round of the playoffs. 

The point is... Because he's a good GM.. you can give him credit for many of those accolades that he has.. Had he not tampered, he'd still be a very good player but would have none of the hardware that could legitimize him as the G.O.A.T.   You can't be the GOAT if you don't earn the title.

 

 

I guess.  I'm not here to argue that Lebron is better than mj or kobe.  I'm not even a fan of Lebron but seems like you're underplaying guys like Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Metta world peace and also Phil Jackson.   I mean Kobe didn't carry the Lakers anywhere once Jackson left.  They had really crummy teams i'll give you that but it just shows he wasn't carrying bums.  He needed help.  

I get your point though.  I mean if officiating was fair Lebron's greatness would be diminished but you can say that about MJ too.   

The 'tampering' wasn't illegal.   If MJ and Kobe didn't do it it's only because they couldn't.  Agents and players didn't wield the control they do now.    If they had the opportunity to they definitely would have done it.   

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

  He needed help.  

Ya remember his help in Vuj in the 06 campaign. Kobe was emotionally abusing that kid lol, no footage but I’m somewhat certain. 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

If they had the opportunity to they definitely would have done it. 

Agreed who do you think each would have recruited at the time, as far as talent and skill set matches.

At the same time they all had egos where they wanted to be “the man”. BUT if they didn’t, who?

Is say Jordan would have done well with a Mutombo. Maybe around 92, Oh wow, Jordan, Pippen and a young defensive minded Deke. (I’ll rinse my mouth out now.. )

Kobe: Well Shaq obviously so.. maybe if not Shaq then a KG ( @kg01 no, the Wolverschmetic not the ISE founder). 
 

Lebron: Duncan, game over.

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I guess.  I'm not here to argue that Lebron is better than mj or kobe.  I'm not even a fan of Lebron but seems like you're underplaying guys like Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Metta world peace and also Phil Jackson.   I mean Kobe didn't carry the Lakers anywhere once Jackson left.  They had really crummy teams i'll give you that but it just shows he wasn't carrying bums.  He needed help.  

I get your point though.  I mean if officiating was fair Lebron's greatness would be diminished but you can say that about MJ too.   

The 'tampering' wasn't illegal.   If MJ and Kobe didn't do it it's only because they couldn't.  Agents and players didn't wield the control they do now.    If they had the opportunity to they definitely would have done it.   

At the time that Kobe had those guys, their careers were spent.  That's like me saying.. remember the time that Lebron played with Shaq!  In the finals, Kobe was the only player to score over 20ppg.  Gasol was like 14 ppg and everybody else under 11 ppg. Mac.. You and me could have gotten Kobe 8 ppg.

 

About MJ...  He played during a time when handchecking was legal.   That meant that when he would drive, it was legal for another player to push him off his course with their hand.  Watch some old Mark Jackson footage and see how it's done correctly.   The game was much more physical when Jordan played.   Yet... he dominated.  We bitch about the calls that Trae don't get.  There was no calls to be made for that stuff when Jordan played.   The game is so much different now.  If Jordan played now, he'd average in the high 40s. 

 

 

[macdaddy]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

At the time that Kobe had those guys, their careers were spent.  That's like me saying.. remember the time that Lebron played with Shaq!  In the finals, Kobe was the only player to score over 20ppg.  Gasol was like 14 ppg and everybody else under 11 ppg. Mac.. You and me could have gotten Kobe 8 ppg.

 

About MJ...  He played during a time when handchecking was legal.   That meant that when he would drive, it was legal for another player to push him off his course with their hand.  Watch some old Mark Jackson footage and see how it's done correctly.   The game was much more physical when Jordan played.   Yet... he dominated.  We bitch about the calls that Trae don't get.  There was no calls to be made for that stuff when Jordan played.   The game is so much different now.  If Jordan played now, he'd average in the high 40s. 

 

 

Hmmm.   I'm only continuing because it's kind of fun but you're saying the last 2 Laker rings when Pau was 28 and 29 years old he was spent?   He played another decade.  Heck all of those guys were younger than Kobe.

I've got no beef with Jordan being the greatest but let's not act like he didn't get the benefit of refs whistles constantly.   But that's not really the issue here because all these guys did.  

[AHF]

LeBron may not be the greatest of all time but he is well ahead of Kobe and top 5, imo.