Will the Hawks ever measure up and become Golden State Warriors East?

[Hawkmoor]

FIRST, let me address a comment that i know is coming because it came a week or so ago when I mentioned it.  Its NEVER been a secret that Travis Schlenk modeled his build of the Atlanta Hawks as the exact same blueprint of Golden State:  https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/12/atlanta-hawks-golden-state-warriors-blueprint   It was said that the Hawks aren't using Golden State as the blueprint.  That comment was petty and very knowingly untrue.

Its WHY Tony Ressler hired Travis Schlenk in the first place.  When Arthur Blank of the Falcons hired Thomas Dimitroff, he wanted the blueprint and success of the New England Patriots.  When Greg McGarity hired Kirby Smart from Alabama, it was to follow the Alabama blueprint and Kirby succeeded.   The elephant in the room is  measuring Travis Schlenk to Bob Myers, the GM in which he worked under at Golden State. There is no question that at one time Golden State had the best 3 man core in basketball:  Curry, Thompson and Green.  That team won 3 chips but it gets interesting.  AFTER Travis was hired by the Hawks,  Myers basically tore that squad down to its core 3 players, kept Iggy and bounced everybody else.  They went into the lottery, loaded up again, traded for Wiggins and BAM, another chip. This was done with a Klay Thompson who is nowhere near what he was, and a older Curry and Green surrounded by young guys who don't know what they are doing yet.

During that SAME TIME, the Hawks drafted Trae Young, Huerter, Hunter and Reddish to be their Golden State core.  They traded for Bogi ( Huerter wasn't the answer to be the new Klay Thompson),  Reddish got fed up and may not pan out in the NBA and Hunter stayed hurt.  Trae has had success, but his small size and aversion to defense means the other starters have to rotate and play double time in order to make up for it.  The Luka for Trae deal speaks for itself and will always be polarizing in Atlanta.  I will say that I still feel with the RIGHT 2 guard beside Trae, the trade will become a moot point.  Bogi is not Klay Thompson, but when the Hawks got Bogi, they were fully aware that a Bogi and Trae backcourt was gonna be HIGHLY dependant on the wings and center positions to be their defensive stoppers.  When healthy,  Hunter has proven to BE THAT GUY.  In fact, I say a healthy Hunter is better than Green.  He brings waay more offense to the table and we saw how he can respond to that role against the Heat in the playoffs.

Travis also did very well with drafting OO.  The confusing aspect is the drafting of Johnson and Cooper and letting Nate keep them out of any part of the rotation.  Thats a grade that will take a while to measure.  Ultimately, if Travis doesn't win championships in Atlanta, will it be because he couldn't duplicate what Myers did or is he being hampered by a Hawks front office that talked big about going into the luxury tax, but appears to be doing everything to not go there.  I have belief that Travis knows what he is doing, but ultimately, Golden State is the measuring stick, as they should be.  Anything less than that is a waste of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[theheroatl]

TLDR;

Hawks have a "Steph"

They need a "Klay" 20+ PPG consistently.

They need a "Draymond" 

They need a "wing/glue guy" (Iguoudala/Wiggins mold)

They need defensive bench players

 

IMO they only have 1 out of the 6 factors squared away.

[BangHolman]

Why not be the Atlanta Hawks?

Spurs East, Warriors East.... Jesus..Stop

 

[Hawkmoor]

Just now, BangHolman said:

Why not be the Atlanta Hawks?

Spurs East, Warriors East.... Jesus..Stop

 

Thats been the problem.

[nathan2331]

We are not that similar to Golden State in our roster constuction or playstyle. Travis drafted Trae because he thought he and Luka were similar in quality, so he took the trade to get the Mavs pick. Huerter wasn't taken to be "the next Klay Thompson" the same way Spellman was never "the next Draymond". The comparisons are nice as a narrative, but unfair to the players especially as they're coming into the league and finding their footing. Furthermore, Golden State never really invested heavily in the center position after Bogut until they drafted Wiseman. Schlenk got Capela in after the clear indications that bargain bin guys like Len and Dedmond weren't good enough for us to compete.

 

I'll also add that Golden State took time for their core of players to mature into title winners. The biggest reason I'm reluctant to trade any of our young guys is that despite the success we've already had, we can get better each offseason.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I'll also add that Golden State took time for their core of players to mature into title winners. The biggest reason I'm reluctant to trade any of our young guys is that despite the success we've already had, we can get better each offseason.

True.  Curry won his first playoff series in his 4th year and his second playoff series in his 6th year.  

[warcore]

 

[theheroatl]

Compare the two defensive ratings by team year from the start of the Curry years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/

Hawks need to get a good Defensive rating before they gonna come close. That is why we need to trade.. I don't see John getting a longer wingspan, Huerter becoming a defensive stopper, Bogi improving or Gallo improving on defense.

Capela is just a big trade chip.

 

[nathan2331]

2 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Compare the two defensive ratings by team year from the start of the Curry years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/

Hawks need to get a good Defensive rating before they gonna come close. That is why we need to trade.. I don't see John getting a longer wingspan, Huerter becoming a defensive stopper, Bogi improving or Gallo improving on defense.

Capela is just a big trade chip.

 

A bigger part of the solution is better help defense from everybody and mixing in more ball pressure. Golden State doesn't have amazing individual defenders, but everyone on the court plays engaged on that end and will frequently double team to either force turnovers or passes to weaker defenders.

[Packfill]

Did someone say Hunter is better than Draymond Green?  That is just not true.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Packfill said:

Did someone say Hunter is better than Draymond Green?  That is just not true.

Hopefully he'll get there some day but Hunter has a ways to go.  Green is a very valuable player on the right team so that isn't an insult.  Pretty sure Green rates better by pretty much every metric and the gap is quite large for some of them.

[Hawkmoor]

50 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

We are not that similar to Golden State in our roster constuction or playstyle. Travis drafted Trae because he thought he and Luka were similar in quality, so he took the trade to get the Mavs pick. Huerter wasn't taken to be "the next Klay Thompson" the same way Spellman was never "the next Draymond". The comparisons are nice as a narrative, but unfair to the players especially as they're coming into the league and finding their footing. Furthermore, Golden State never really invested heavily in the center position after Bogut until they drafted Wiseman. Schlenk got Capela in after the clear indications that bargain bin guys like Len and Dedmond weren't good enough for us to compete.

 

I'll also add that Golden State took time for their core of players to mature into title winners. The biggest reason I'm reluctant to trade any of our young guys is that despite the success we've already had, we can get better each offseason.

Brah stop.  Its NEVER been a secret that player for player,  Travis built this team in the image of the Golden State Warriors.  Trae, Huerter,  Hunter and Reddish were specifically picked by Travis for that very reason.  Heck, I myself saw early comparisons to Klay Thomspon when I first watched Huerter.  Huerter is still the same type of player, part of his problem is he can't catch and shoot as well as Klay.  Too many moving parts in his jumper.  

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2779781-kevin-huerter-nba-draft-2018-scouting-report-for-atlanta-hawks-pick

Quick hitters

Size: 6'7¼"

Weight: 194 pounds

Wingspan: 6'7½"

Reach: 8'5½"

Pro-player comparison: Joe Ingles/Klay Thompson

 

https://nbadraftroom.com/kevin-huerter/

 

Comparisons

• His game is similar to Klay Thompson but it’s unlikely he’ll end up being as good as Klay.

[Hawkmoor]

13 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Did someone say Hunter is better than Draymond Green?  That is just not true.

I don't get caught up in the hype.  If you watch their games and ignore the fact that Green has a better core of players around him,  Green isn't the player that Hunter is.  Green might be the all time prime example of a player that the NBA has ALLOWED to come out and play football on the basketball court.  He bullies folks on the court.  Hunter is the KING of phantom calls going against him.   Green's jumper is suspect, ( though he makes a few) and he doesn't have the mid range, jumper or post moves that Hunter possesses.  There is a REASON Travis is trying to keep Hunter out of ANY deal the Hawks make this off season.  You put Hunter on that Golden State team and replace Green and there wouldn't be any drop off, in fact, the offense would be better and Curry wouldn't have had to carry them as much as he does now.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[StonedDogs]

In short, No. Hawks defense and roster are not there. Gallo, Heurter, Bogi, Trae, Caepela, Collins, TLC, Lou are too slow for finals basketball 

 

[RedDawg#8]

Dynasty's become great by being the best version of themselves.

Every dynasty has it's own identity different than any other one, not an imitation. That works in music, but not sports.

We need to establish a winning culture built around franchise pillars. Are we fast, athletic, offensive minded, defensive minded, tough, smart, etc... these are the things we must identify and commit to. Right now, we are a devastating pick and roll unit with great shooters and bigs who can finish. That's a part of our DNA. But what else? Can we establish a defensive identity to match our offensive one?

Once a culture is in place, you only bring in pieces that either fit that culture, or adapt to fit that culture. 

KD signed with GS because he wanted to be a part their culture and be on a team that moves the ball. Butler was brought to Miami because he fit their culture. The Spurs and Raptors established cultures focused on player development and international scouting. They groomed their organizations around players who played the right way. It's no coincidence that Kawhi jumped from the Spurs to the Raps and did not miss a single beat.

We have to establish winning habits. Trae can claim he wants to win a ring so bad, but he has to back it up now by evolving his mindset even further. Every possession has to matter to him, on both ends. He doesn't have to be a great defender, he just has to give great effort. That will inspire his teammates to play harder. He has to make the right reads even if it means he doesn't score or get the assist. He has to put his body on the line for his teammates. 

These are things that will set a standard for everyone else to follow. No more being fun to watch. You have to hate losing more than you like winning. Which means doing the dirty work to win, and not only being flashy.

The scariest part about this is that everyone player that Trae compares best with: CP3, Nash, Iverson, Harden, etc... None of them have ever held up a trophy. Trae has to channel his inner Isiah and Curry. Team over everything. Winning over everything.

That's how you lay the foundation for what could eventually become a dynasty. It starts with one though. You have to win one first, before you can win multiple.

My thoughts

[nathan2331]

3 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Brah stop.  Its NEVER been a secret that player for player,  Travis built this team in the image of the Golden State Warriors.  Trae, Huerter,  Hunter and Reddish were specifically picked by Travis for that very reason.  Heck, I myself saw early comparisons to Klay Thomspon when I first watched Huerter.  Huerter is still the same type of player, part of his problem is he can't catch and shoot as well as Klay.  Too many moving parts in his jumper.  

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2779781-kevin-huerter-nba-draft-2018-scouting-report-for-atlanta-hawks-pick

Quick hitters

Size: 6'7¼"

Weight: 194 pounds

Wingspan: 6'7½"

Reach: 8'5½"

Pro-player comparison: Joe Ingles/Klay Thompson

 

https://nbadraftroom.com/kevin-huerter/

 

Comparisons

• His game is similar to Klay Thompson but it’s unlikely he’ll end up being as good as Klay.

Comparing Huerter to Thompson is setting him up for faiure. Thompson is on a different level when it comes to shooting. At his best few players ever are shooting at his volume with similar efficiency. And he does it without needing to handle the ball in their offense. That's a unique role that's not getting duplicated easily. There are other sharpshooters in the league, but Huerter has a wider skillset. He's just not an aggressive player to utilize it against most opponents.

If want to make comparisons, by all means do so. All I'm saying is that these guys don't do the same things on the court. Kerr and the Warriors staff deserve a ton of credit for getting the players to complement each other. But that's not a recipe that we can recreate here unless Trae, Huerter, and Collins want to redefine themselves as basketball players.

[Packfill]

23 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

I don't get caught up in the hype.  If you watch their games and ignore the fact that Green has a better core of players around him,  Green isn't the player that Hunter is.  Green might be the all time prime example of a player that the NBA has ALLOWED to come out and play football on the basketball court.  He bullies folks on the court.  Hunter is the KING of phantom calls going against him.   Green's jumper is suspect, ( though he makes a few) and he doesn't have the mid range, jumper or post moves that Hunter possesses.  There is a REASON Travis is trying to keep Hunter out of ANY deal the Hawks make this off season.  You put Hunter on that Golden State team and replace Green and there wouldn't be any drop off, in fact, the offense would be better and Curry wouldn't have had to carry them as much as he does now.

The reason Travis keeps Hunter out of other deals is because the team does not have any other small forward on the roster and players Hunter's size are the most in-demand archetype in the NBA today.  

Green is a defensive player of the year candid and can facilitate the offense.   Green is the key to the Warriors entire defensive strategy.  Hunter would back-up Wiggins on GS.

Hunter is an okay defender whose length suggests he should be better and cannot initiate offense for others.  Hunter is the better shooter, no doubt.  He is also much younger so maybe he gets there.  More likely, he is to the Hawks what Andrew Wiggins or Harrison Barnes are/were to GS.

[nathan2331]

5 minutes ago, Packfill said:

The reason Travis keeps Hunter out of other deals is because the team does not have any other small forward on the roster and players Hunter's size are the most in-demand archetype in the NBA today.  

Green is a defensive player of the year candid and can facilitate the offense.   Green is the key to the Warriors entire defensive strategy.  Hunter would back-up Wiggins on GS.

Hunter is an okay defender whose length suggests he should be better and cannot initiate offense for others.  Hunter is the better shooter, no doubt.  He is also much younger so maybe he gets there.  More likely, he is to the Hawks what Andrew Wiggins or Harrison Barnes are/were to GS.

Draymond should not be considered a DPOY candidate. He did well, but he's not dominant on that end of the court.

[Hawkmoor]

22 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Comparing Huerter to Thompson is setting him up for faiure. Thompson is on a different level when it comes to shooting. At his best few players ever are shooting at his volume with similar efficiency. And he does it without needing to handle the ball in their offense. That's a unique role that's not getting duplicated easily. There are other sharpshooters in the league, but Huerter has a wider skillset. He's just not an aggressive player to utilize it against most opponents.

If want to make comparisons, by all means do so. All I'm saying is that these guys don't do the same things on the court. Kerr and the Warriors staff deserve a ton of credit for getting the players to complement each other. But that's not a recipe that we can recreate here unless Trae, Huerter, and Collins want to redefine themselves as basketball players.

To be the best, you measure yourself against the best.  Its WHY Georgia is the National Champions in football.

[Hawkmoor]

13 minutes ago, Packfill said:

The reason Travis keeps Hunter out of other deals is because the team does not have any other small forward on the roster and players Hunter's size are the most in-demand archetype in the NBA today.  

Green is a defensive player of the year candid and can facilitate the offense.   Green is the key to the Warriors entire defensive strategy.  Hunter would back-up Wiggins on GS.

Hunter is an okay defender whose length suggests he should be better and cannot initiate offense for others.  Hunter is the better shooter, no doubt.  He is also much younger so maybe he gets there.  More likely, he is to the Hawks what Andrew Wiggins or Harrison Barnes are/were to GS.

Good analysis. You made some very good points.  As far as Hunter goes, I believe its his injuries and being in the wrong offensive system that have held him back.  I firmly believe he is better than Green though.  I pointed out how the NBA lets Green play football out there.  Thats not defensive player of the year stuff, thats bully ball.  Hunter can't breath on a offensive player without getting a foul called against him.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hawkmoor