Will the Hawks ever measure up and become Golden State Warriors East?

[nathan2331]

4 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

To be the best, you measure yourself against the best.  Its WHY Georgia is the National Champions in football.

You don't think Alabama losing their two best weapons had something to do with that?

[Hawkmoor]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

You don't think Alabama losing their two best weapons had something to do with that?

Georgia's best pass rusher was missing almost half the season, including the championship game against bama. Their best receiver was still hobbling from a major injury in the championship game.  Heck, Georgia had Bama on the ropes 2 out of the last three games they played them BEFORE the National Championship game this past season.  You act like Georgia isn't on par with Bama.  They are the ONLY team in the nation on par with Bama.  That was their measuring stick.   The Hawks did the same with Golden State but haven't gotten there yet.

[nathan2331]

5 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Georgia's best pass rusher was missing almost half the season, including the championship game against bama. Their best receiver was still hobbling from a major injury in the championship game.  Heck, Georgia had Bama on the ropes 2 out of the last three games they played them BEFORE the National Championship game this past season.  You act like Georgia isn't on par with Bama.  They are the ONLY team in the nation on par with Bama.  That was their measuring stick.   The Hawks did the same with Golden State but haven't gotten there yet.

I think Georgia was the better team overall, but I don't think its unfair to bring up Jameson WIlliams' injury considering he was having a very good game until it happened. His abscsence limited Bama's ability to take shots down the field. My disagreement is with using other teams as a measuring stick. You build the best team you can to beat whoever is in front of you. Every season presents new challenges, so I don't agree that Georgia built their team with concern about what Bama or anybody else was doing.

[Hawkmoor]

17 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I think Georgia was the better team overall, but I don't think its unfair to bring up Jameson WIlliams' injury considering he was having a very good game until it happened. His abscsence limited Bama's ability to take shots down the field. My disagreement is with using other teams as a measuring stick. You build the best team you can to beat whoever is in front of you. Every season presents new challenges, so I don't agree that Georgia built their team with concern about what Bama or anybody else was doing.

Bama had EVERYTHING to do with how Georgia was built.  In fact, its WHY Mark Richt was let go.  He couldn't get past Bama.

[benhillboy]

50 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Draymond should not be considered a DPOY candidate. He did well, but he's not dominant on that end of the court.

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, theheroatl said:

Compare the two defensive ratings by team year from the start of the Curry years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/

Hawks need to get a good Defensive rating before they gonna come close. That is why we need to trade.. I don't see John getting a longer wingspan, Huerter becoming a defensive stopper, Bogi improving or Gallo improving on defense.

Capela is just a big trade chip.

 

A teams’ defensive rating is steadied by its core players.  Steph’s rating has never been lower than the Warriors’ in a championship year.

Steph doesn’t have to be helped or accounted for on defense when he’s engaged; quite the opposite.  He spent time and fouls guarding the point, a wing, and a Big last night because he’s always used his length very well.  A steals champion who guards LeBron inside the arc in the Finals is anything but the weak link the media and fans have foolishly made him out to be for years.

With that said the Warriors probably don’t win a ship without Gary Payton Jr.  A defensive savant on the ball.  The Warriors’ defensive rating in the finals was 107.  Payton Jr was 95, totally locked up Jaylen Brown once he got his legs back.

The Hawks are so far away from having a defensive culture, even with 2 standout defenders in OO and Dre and two wonderful ones in Wright and Capela.

Edited June 17, 2022 by benhillboy

[nathan2331]

28 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

The only thing DBPM shows is that your team's defense is better with you on the court than with you off it.  And I'm not arguing that the Warriors have a better alternative than Green on their roster. He has been a consistent positive influence for them. But you really don't thin Jokic is a top 10 defender all time or that Hawk alumni Tree Rollins was a better defender than TIm Duncan, do you?

[Final_quest]

Has this ever been done successfully?  Football programs in college are much different.  NBA basketball is built around your star players.  How can someone just try to be the Showtime Lakers without Magic?  The Bulls without Jordan?  Could you try to emulate the Shaq & Kobe Lakers?  You freaking cannot replace Shaq by drafting Big Country.  

I think there is a flawed premise to this question.  Right now our entire franchise is about building around Trae Young, not trying to become Splash Brothers 2.0.  

[AHF]

2 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

The only thing DBPM shows is that your team's defense is better with you on the court than with you off it.  And I'm not arguing that the Warriors have a better alternative than Green on their roster. He has been a consistent positive influence for them. But you really don't thin Jokic is a top 10 defender all time or that Hawk alumni Tree Rollins was a better defender than TIm Duncan, do you?

Agree that statistic has limitations but he is elite by any defensive metric.  All are imperfect but his accumulated numbers reflect an elite defender.  7x All-NBA defense doesn’t hurt either.  Overrated is perhaps worth arguing over but whether he has been the defensive cornerstone of a dynasty isn’t.

[nathan2331]

26 minutes ago, AHF said:

Agree that statistic has limitations but he is elite by any defensive metric.  All are imperfect but his accumulated numbers reflect an elite defender.  7x All-NBA defense doesn’t hurt either.  Overrated is perhaps worth arguing over but whether he has been the defensive cornerstone of a dynasty isn’t.

Well I'm fine dieing alone on the hill that his defense is overrated if we're solely focusing on his individual contributions to the team. That isn't me trying to say the Warriors need to upgrade, but more so that l think it'd be more beneficial to look at how the Warriors help each other on the court to make up for each other's limitations/matchup problems.

 

Take another guy for example, Andrew Wiggins. He was known as an underwhelming defender before he arrived at GS, yet they gave him some of the hardest defensive matchups in this playoff run. Some will say he's putting in more effort and playing at a much higher level, but I'm arguing that players around him are helping him more than anything. That's a concept replicated by a lot of good defenses and it could be replicated here regardless of our personnel. But we (the whole basketball community) are not focusing on that, just the results of the game and I think as Hawks fans we'll be waiting a while if we think some personnel changes will do the trick.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

The scariest part about this is that everyone player that Trae compares best with: CP3, Nash, Iverson, Harden, etc... None of them have ever held up a trophy. Trae has to channel his inner Isiah and Curry. Team over everything. Winning over everything.

This is where I want to interject. 

I was watching the press conference last night and Iguodala say that Steph is the best PG of all time.   Pundits this morning started waiving the Magic and Stockton flag...

Then I started to think about the box that Trae checks.   Trae is a freaking Unicorn.  There's no PG except maybe Harden that matches his output.   He's a guy that can lead the league in scoring and assists.  He's in the top 10 of Both.  When thinking about Steph... he's like 24 ppg /7 apg.   Trae is like 28/10...  The first comparable is Nash.. but Nash didn't score like Trae.   CP3 doesn't score as well as Trae.   Iverson didn't get assists like Trae.  Only Harden in his MVP season is like Trae.

We have something special.. if we plan around him correctly, we will be hoisting the trophy in the ATL...

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, benhillboy said:

The Hawks are so far away from having a defensive culture, even with 2 standout defenders in OO and Dre and two wonderful ones in Wright and Capela.

I would argue that we are one piece away.

Like it or not, we played our best defensive player off the bench because offensively he wasn't fluid with our offense.  SO his effect on our defense was Nile.   OO also played off the bench.   If we can get a superior defender in the starting lineup I believe that we would be right there.  That is why I was for getting PG13 and Simmons.  They fit that mold. 

[Hawkmoor]

7 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

The scariest part about this is that everyone player that Trae compares best with: CP3, Nash, Iverson, Harden, etc... None of them have ever held up a trophy. Trae has to channel his inner Isiah and Curry. Team over everything. Winning over everything.

 

I been harping this point ever since Trae was drafted.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[Hawkmoor]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

This is where I want to interject. 

I was watching the press conference last night and Iguodala say that Steph is the best PG of all time.   Pundits this morning started waiving the Magic and Stockton flag...

Then I started to think about the box that Trae checks.   Trae is a freaking Unicorn.  There's no PG except maybe Harden that matches his output.   He's a guy that can lead the league in scoring and assists.  He's in the top 10 of Both.  When thinking about Steph... he's like 24 ppg /7 apg.   Trae is like 28/10...  The first comparable is Nash.. but Nash didn't score like Trae.   CP3 doesn't score as well as Trae.   Iverson didn't get assists like Trae.  Only Harden in his MVP season is like Trae.

We have something special.. if we plan around him correctly, we will be hoisting the trophy in the ATL...

 

I don't even like Phil Jackson, the most overrated NBA head coach ever, but he " supposedly" told Jordan to score less in order to make that triangle offense work.  Whether it was Phil or Tex Winter who instructed him on that,  Jordan scored less and became a distributor.  Thats what Trae has to do.  If Trae becomes a primary distributor and cut back on his scoring average and learn WHEN to take over games, he will become the best point guard in the NBA.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[StonedDogs]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is where I want to interject. 

I was watching the press conference last night and Iguodala say that Steph is the best PG of all time.   Pundits this morning started waiving the Magic and Stockton flag...

Then I started to think about the box that Trae checks.   Trae is a freaking Unicorn.  There's no PG except maybe Harden that matches his output.   He's a guy that can lead the league in scoring and assists.  He's in the top 10 of Both.  When thinking about Steph... he's like 24 ppg /7 apg.   Trae is like 28/10...  The first comparable is Nash.. but Nash didn't score like Trae.   CP3 doesn't score as well as Trae.   Iverson didn't get assists like Trae.  Only Harden in his MVP season is like Trae.

We have something special.. if we plan around him correctly, we will be hoisting the trophy in the ATL...

 

I dunno brother. You can build around CP3 because he's smarter. CP3 prime can score like Trae if he wanted. I'll never forget he purposely scored his late grandfather's age in h.s. Did it with ease. I can't see a successful NBA team building around Trae because he pretty much a one trick pony. 30 foot three pointer, dribble dribble dribble looks for lob pass. There's no in-between in his game. No bag, no package. How does he get better at defense? Will he put the work in to bulk? Will it affect his game, his speed, his shot if he does? I look at Smart posting up a bigger Curry and he backed him down easily but Curry still played good solid defense. The Hawks have a long way to go. From the coach to the leader on the floor.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

I don't even like Phil Jackson, the most overrated NBA head coach ever, but he " supposedly" told Jordan to score less in order to make that triangle offense work.  Whether it was Phil or Tex Winter who instructed him on that,  Jordan scored less and became a distributor.  Thats what Trae has to do.  If Trae becomes a primary distributor and cut back on his scoring average and learn WHEN to take over games, he will become the best point guard in the NBA.

Nawl.. that's not Trae's problem.   He's already a top distributor in the game.  2nd in Assist per game and 1st in overall assists.  What you want 15 apg.   The offense doesn't not work because he's not sharing the ball... we must face the truth, the young players around Trae are inconsistent scorers. Especially our wings.   We have guys that can't consistently drain the corner three.  Kev has avoided contact all year.   Giving the ball up isn't going to make this offense better. 

What will make it better is another player who is efficient and scores consistently.

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

I dunno brother. You can build around CP3 because he's smarter. CP3 prime can score like Trae if he wanted. I'll never forget he purposely scored his late grandfather's age in h.s. Did it with ease. I can't see a successful NBA team building around Trae because he pretty much a one trick pony. 30 foot three pointer, dribble dribble dribble looks for lob pass. There's no in-between in his game. No bag, no package. How does he get better at defense? Will he put the work in to bulk? Will it affect his game, his speed, his shot if he does? I look at Smart posting up a bigger Curry and he backed him down easily but Curry still played good solid defense. The Hawks have a long way to go. From the coach to the leader on the floor.

1.  That was H.S.   Differently level on the NBA.  IF he could score at will, Phoenix would have won the Championship this year. 

CP3 has a damn near unstoppable midrange game but it's built off of his ability to find the open man inside. 

2.  If you think Trae is a one trick pony, then you've just been watching highlights.  Everything Trae does is for a reason.  PNR/PNP/GoatFloat all work together.  That 30 footer that you're moaning about.. purpose is to stretch the defense to give him lanes.  Same thing that Curry does.  People think it's about showing off...  watch the effect next time you're watching the game.  The defense will start picking Trae up earlier, this gives him room to work.   He doesn't have blow by speed but his passing is pinpoint.   And his corner three is his best shot.  If we ever get a second ball handler that allowed Trae to leak to the corner, he will be money every time. 

3.  Defense is a team sport.   Trae is terrible at man defense, but he has played in the team defense well. He's no stopper but in the team defense, he just needs to hold his position and he can do that. 

 

[benhillboy]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

I would argue that we are one piece away.

Like it or not, we played our best defensive player off the bench because offensively he wasn't fluid with our offense.  SO his effect on our defense was Nile.   OO also played off the bench.   If we can get a superior defender in the starting lineup I believe that we would be right there.  That is why I was for getting PG13 and Simmons.  They fit that mold. 

The Hawks’ offensive and defensive ratings were 117 to 115.  Do you know why Delon’s were 126 to 112 and what that means relative to the teams’?  

[NBASupes]

17 hours ago, Packfill said:

The reason Travis keeps Hunter out of other deals is because the team does not have any other small forward on the roster and players Hunter's size are the most in-demand archetype in the NBA today.  

Green is a defensive player of the year candid and can facilitate the offense.   Green is the key to the Warriors entire defensive strategy.  Hunter would back-up Wiggins on GS.

Hunter is an okay defender whose length suggests he should be better and cannot initiate offense for others.  Hunter is the better shooter, no doubt.  He is also much younger so maybe he gets there.  More likely, he is to the Hawks what Andrew Wiggins or Harrison Barnes are/were to GS.

Hunter is a excellent man defender who can defend 3 positions and at times 4. We got a player who can defend even 1 position. It makes it difficult to win defensively.

[Spud2nique]

0 star thread. Just like those bum a$$ Kyme posts.