NBA ALLSTAR WEEKEND: Trae Young - 2024 Allstar

[JayBirdHawk]

I wudda kept the $100.....think was a Knick fan talking junk.

 

 

[Final_quest]

OK well I literally did one five minute Google search to remind myself I'm not crazy.  Here's Sports Illustrated from 2022 saying nearly exactly what I have been saying:

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

OK well I literally did one five minute Google search to remind myself I'm not crazy.  Here's Sports Illustrated from 2022 saying nearly exactly what I have been saying:

First, teams choose whether to give into that kind of pressure or not.  If they do so, they own that decision.  

Second, we are talking about a very different sitaution with Trae versus LeBron.  You were talking about personnel moves made when the team had 5 years of control over Trae and are comparing  them to moves made when LeBron had the leverage of UFA.  

UFAs have a lot of leverage.  Guys under team control don't.  Look at LeBron.  New contract in 2014.  New contract in 2015.  New contract in 2016.  New contract in 2018 with a player opt out option.  New contract in 2022 that includes a player opt out option.  

Why do you think LeBron has signed a bunch of deals like this over the years?  It is purely to keep his leverage.

Trae has never been in that situation.  Only now is he getting closer to UFA to the point where he could theoretically have the kind of leverage that LeBron has enjoyed.  (Although few players enjoy that kind of leverage.  Being the best player of a generation comes with more say because he will only play for teams that will give him more control.)

Apples to oranges.

[Final_quest]

25 minutes ago, AHF said:

First, teams choose whether to give into that kind of pressure or not.  If they do so, they own that decision.  

Second, we are talking about a very different sitaution with Trae versus LeBron.  You were talking about personnel moves made when the team had 5 years of control over Trae and are comparing  them to moves made when LeBron had the leverage of UFA.  

UFAs have a lot of leverage.  Guys under team control don't.  Look at LeBron.  New contract in 2014.  New contract in 2015.  New contract in 2016.  New contract in 2018 with a player opt out option.  New contract in 2022 that includes a player opt out option.  

Why do you think LeBron has signed a bunch of deals like this over the years?  It is purely to keep his leverage.

Trae has never been in that situation.  Only now is he getting closer to UFA to the point where he could theoretically have the kind of leverage that LeBron has enjoyed.  (Although few players enjoy that kind of leverage.  Being the best player of a generation comes with more say because he will only play for teams that will give him more control.)

Apples to oranges.

This article isn't even about Lebron specifically, they just use him as an example.  It's about how the game is changing to where star players are expected to have input in the roster and own the success and failure with the GM.  It explicitly says superstars are sharing the BLAME on rosters.  

All I ever said is we don't know how much Trae is playing this game.  Ya'll told me the GM is ALWAYS 100% responsible in every organization.  This article is like a parrot repeating everything I said.  My perspective aligns with the public perception and the actual reality of how this plays out.  Stars have influence and share in success and failure when they use their influence.  

If you can't see it after reading that... OK. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

This article isn't even about Lebron specifically, they just use him as an example.  It's about how the game is changing to where star players are expected to have input in the roster and own the success and failure with the GM.  It explicitly says superstars are sharing the BLAME on rosters.  

All I ever said is we don't know how much Trae is playing this game.  Ya'll told me the GM is ALWAYS 100% responsible in every organization.  This article is like a parrot repeating everything I said.  My perspective aligns with the public perception and the actual reality of how this plays out.  Stars have influence and share in success and failure when they use their influence.  

If you can't see it after reading that... OK. 

I guess my position in management colors my view.  I don't consider any of my subordinates blameworthy for my actions even if I take their input.

I do think there are situations where players can share the blame and they are extraordinary circumstances.  The number of players who have serious input on personnel decisions is very small.  The most obvious situation is where a player recruits someone to come play for the team and usually management is thrilled to have that support ala Pat Riley and Wade/LeBron.  At other times, you have an MVP level player who is 1-2 years away from exiting and can leverage that into actions by management as we've seen with LeBron in Cleveland and LA. 

To take this back to what is the topic of discussion here, I've not seen anything to make me think Trae is among those few players and so for the circumstances in which Trae has operated I stand by the statement that our management is 100% responsible for whatever contracts they've offered, whatever trades they've done, and whoever they have drafted.  What I've seen suggested is that our owner / GM may have listened to what Trae asked for and agreed that it made sense to them and/or that they wanted to do it to make him happy but not that he pulled a LeBron or anything where he used his impending UFA to leverage specific personnel moves on threat of leaving the team.  

I agree to disagree.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I guess my position in management colors my view.  I don't consider any of my subordinates blameworthy for my actions even if I take their input.

I do think there are situations where players can share the blame and they are extraordinary circumstances.  The number of players who have serious input on personnel decisions is very small.  The most obvious situation is where a player recruits someone to come play for the team and usually management is thrilled to have that support ala Pat Riley and Wade/LeBron.  At other times, you have an MVP level player who is 1-2 years away from exiting and can leverage that into actions by management as we've seen with LeBron in Cleveland and LA. 

To take this back to what is the topic of discussion here, I've not seen anything to make me think Trae is among those few players and so for the circumstances in which Trae has operated I stand by the statement that our management is 100% responsible for whatever contracts they've offered, whatever trades they've done, and whoever they have drafted.  What I've seen suggested is that our owner / GM may have listened to what Trae asked for and agreed that it made sense to them and/or that they wanted to do it to make him happy but not that he pulled a LeBron or anything where he used his impending UFA to leverage specific personnel moves on threat of leaving the team.  

I agree to disagree.

You seem like you are trying to deliberately frame this very differently from anything I said.  A actual reputable news outlet stated my perspective nearly word for word.  So that’s as good as it’s gonna get.  

At the end of the day Trae has the most at stake when it comes to team success.  The world will remember this as the Trae Young era, not the Schlenk, Landry, or Ressler era.  He should push the GM and owner.  All the stars deserve a place at the table with their team and they should use their influence to bring in the best players they can.  A short contract isn’t the only way they have leverage and influence.  

[shakes]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

You seem like you are trying to deliberately frame this very differently from anything I said.  A actual reputable news outlet stated my perspective nearly word for word.  So that’s as good as it’s gonna get.  

At the end of the day Trae has the most at stake when it comes to team success.  The world will remember this as the Trae Young era, not the Schlenk, Landry, or Ressler era.  He should push the GM and owner.  All the stars deserve a place at the table with their team and they should use their influence to bring in the best players they can.  A short contract isn’t the only way they have leverage and influence.  

You are 100% right.    When people look back at Barry Sanders’ career they say he never won anything and barely ever got to the playoffs. No one ever points out the astronomical failures of the GM and owners of the Lions who failed at every turn to put a good team around him.  No one remembered that Barry was the ultimate soldier and never complained and just kept his head down and did his job.  They remember that HE didn’t win.   

The same will happen to Trae.  Therefore it’s 100% on a superstar to take the reins  and do what he can to make sure his team is doing what needs a to be done.  

[AHF]

16 hours ago, shakes said:

You are 100% right.    When people look back at Barry Sanders’ career they say he never won anything and barely ever got to the playoffs. No one ever points out the astronomical failures of the GM and owners of the Lions who failed at every turn to put a good team around him.  No one remembered that Barry was the ultimate soldier and never complained and just kept his head down and did his job.  They remember that HE didn’t win.   

The same will happen to Trae.  Therefore it’s 100% on a superstar to take the reins  and do what he can to make sure his team is doing what needs a to be done.  

But the reality is that Barry Sanders was not culpable for the Lion's failures.  The culpability falls on the front office.  And trust me that Detroit fans have no illusions about that.  They all know who was responsible for Sanders never having success.  (Pinging @Spud2nique as the resident Lion's fan here who can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Sanders is a great example of why the word culpability does not apply regardless of whether some casual NFL fans discount Sanders' greatness because he never won a ring.

[shakes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

But the reality is that Barry Sanders was not culpable for the Lion's failures.  The culpability falls on the front office.  And trust me that Detroit fans have no illusions about that.  They all know who was responsible for Sanders never having success.  (Pinging @Spud2nique as the resident Lion's fan here who can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Sanders is a great example of why the word culpability does not apply regardless of whether some casual NFL fans discount Sanders' greatness because he never won a ring.

we don't need Spud.  No one on the face of this Earth was a bigger Barry fan than me.   Saw every game he ever played starting with his first game of his junior year of college.

 

You are right and wrong.  You are right that it's not Barry's fault the GM and owner sucked so much.  But you are wrong that people won't hold it against him when talking about his legacy.  He gets knocked for never winning and no one puts an asterisk next to their remarks to comment about the inept front office.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

we don't need Spud.  No one on the face of this Earth was a bigger Barry fan than me. 

Wrong. behind me.

1 hour ago, shakes said:

Saw every game he ever played

I don’t believe you. 

[AHF]

We are starting to branch away from what we've been discussing which is the player's actual fault.  On that you and I are aligned that it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't be blamed.

On his legacy, I think it depends on the conversation.  I still see a lot of respect for his legacy.  Here are few:

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

25 Greatest Running Backs in NFL History - AthlonSports.com | Expert Predictions, Picks, and Previews

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

NFL Running Back Greats: The Top 30 in History Ranked (msn.com)

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Walter Payton)

The 50 greatest NFL running backs of all time | Yardbarker

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Payton)

25 greatest NFL running backs of all time, ranked (clutchpoints.com)

#1 All-Time

Top 11 running backs of all time from Barry Sanders to O.J. Simpson (profootballnetwork.com)

 

I just see him as commonly acknowledged among the very best running backs ever to play the sport.  I am sure there are some people who rank him lower (these were first lists to come up on my search) but it seems very common to have him among the very best despite his team not having won nearly as much as many of the others in that range.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

But the reality is that Barry Sanders was not culpable for the Lion's failures.  The culpability falls on the front office.  And trust me that Detroit fans have no illusions about that.  They all know who was responsible for Sanders never having success.  (Pinging @Spud2nique as the resident Lion's fan here who can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Sanders is a great example of why the word culpability does not apply regardless of whether some casual NFL fans discount Sanders' greatness because he never won a ring.

This. The majority of knowledgeable fans who know what it takes to run a GOOD/GREAT don’t blame Barry whatsoever because they know we had literally nothing else besides Barry, Spielman and Lomas Brown.. Herman’s Moore and a few others but never complete on the defensive side of the ball. The owner and management was invisible and just reaping the rewards and the money.

Having said that, there are some morons that place the blame on Barry but how, what was he supposed to do? They are idiots.

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

we don't need Spud.

@kg01 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

We are starting to branch away from what we've been discussing which is the player's actual fault.  On that you and I are aligned that it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't be blamed.

On his legacy, I think it depends on the conversation.  I still see a lot of respect for his legacy.  Here are few:

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

25 Greatest Running Backs in NFL History - AthlonSports.com | Expert Predictions, Picks, and Previews

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

NFL Running Back Greats: The Top 30 in History Ranked (msn.com)

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Walter Payton)

The 50 greatest NFL running backs of all time | Yardbarker

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Payton)

25 greatest NFL running backs of all time, ranked (clutchpoints.com)

#1 All-Time

Top 11 running backs of all time from Barry Sanders to O.J. Simpson (profootballnetwork.com)

 

I just see him as commonly acknowledged among the very best running backs ever to play the sport.  I am sure there are some people who rank him lower (these were first lists to come up on my search) but it seems very common to have him among the very best despite his team not having won nearly as much as many of the others in that range.

I have :

1. Jim Brown

2. Barry Sanders

3. Earl Campbell

4. Walter Payton

5. Bo Jackson

And this is coming from a die hard fan.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I have :

1. Jim Brown

2. Barry Sanders

3. Earl Campbell

4. Walter Payton

5. Bo Jackson

And this is coming from a die hard fan.

I can't even imagine the damage he would have done if he had the kinds of offenses that Emmitt Smith, LT, and others enjoyed around him.  Way too many piss poor lines in Detroit where he was on his own to create something out of nothing (and usually did).

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

We are starting to branch away from what we've been discussing which is the player's actual fault. 

We are branching from the thread topic...Trae an Allstar 

[shakes]

35 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Wrong. behind me.

I don’t believe you. 

I got receipts mofo!   Actually I don't, but I got an origin story:

 

It all started all of 1988 when I was a young freshman at Oklahoma University.   Got season tickets to the football in the student section. Went to the first game all fired up and it was boring as hell.  Fans were way too into the game and not having fun.  I went back to my dorm and turned on the TV and the only thing on was Oklahoma State's game.   Watched it and Barry had his first start at RB (now that Thurman Thomas had graduated) and rushed for over 200 yards.  It was love at first sight.  I immediately swore off my own school, gave away my tickets and every saturday I would stay in teh dorm and watch Barry.

Decided that whatever team drafted him would be my team.   Couldn't watch his games when I was at college so my parents would tape them all for me on VHS tapes and send them to me or i would watch them when I got home for break.  My parents had one of those massive satellite dishes so they got all the games.

So there ya have it.  Never missed a game in his entire career starting his junior year.  

 

The shitty part is I only saw him live once.  When he came to play the bears I went to the game, great seats on the 50.  And then Barry had such a bad game that he later said that game was the game where he decided he didn't want to play anymore   

 

Used to get in arguments all the time with people who said Emmit was better.  You won't find any of those people nowadays, they'll all deny it or they are dead like John Madden, but back then it was about 60/40 in terms of people supporting Emmit vs Barry.  

39 minutes ago, AHF said:

We are starting to branch away from what we've been discussing which is the player's actual fault.  On that you and I are aligned that it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't be blamed.

On his legacy, I think it depends on the conversation.  I still see a lot of respect for his legacy.  Here are few:

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

25 Greatest Running Backs in NFL History - AthlonSports.com | Expert Predictions, Picks, and Previews

#2 All-Time (behind Jim Brown)

NFL Running Back Greats: The Top 30 in History Ranked (msn.com)

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Walter Payton)

The 50 greatest NFL running backs of all time | Yardbarker

#3 All-Time (behind Brown and Payton)

25 greatest NFL running backs of all time, ranked (clutchpoints.com)

#1 All-Time

Top 11 running backs of all time from Barry Sanders to O.J. Simpson (profootballnetwork.com)

 

I just see him as commonly acknowledged among the very best running backs ever to play the sport.  I am sure there are some people who rank him lower (these were first lists to come up on my search) but it seems very common to have him among the very best despite his team not having won nearly as much as many of the others in that range.

you are right in the sense that football is ALOT different than basketball in terms of legacies being tied to team results.

[Spud2nique]

35 minutes ago, AHF said:

Way too many piss poor lines in Detroit

This yup.

[Spud2nique]

37 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We are branching from the thread topic...Trae an Allstar 

Hey, I was just called in as a Detroit and Barry witness. Don’t shoot the spudenger  

15 minutes ago, shakes said:

It all started all of 1988

You’re story always start like this. []

[AHF]

50 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I have :

1. Jim Brown

2. Barry Sanders

And this is coming from a die hard fan.

 

17 minutes ago, shakes said:

I immediately swore off my own school, gave away my tickets and every saturday I would stay in teh dorm and watch Barry.

Decided that whatever team drafted him would be my team.   Couldn't watch his games when I was at college so my parents would tape them all for me on VHS tapes and send them to me or i would watch them when I got home for break.  My parents had one of those massive satellite dishes so they got all the games.

So there ya have it.  Never missed a game in his entire career starting his junior year.  

 

Do I feel a connection building?

If not, maybe just a common interest in pushing OJ off the side of the building when someone suggests he is comparable to Barry?