Which rebuilding team would you trade rosters with

[AHF]

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Whether you would take Howard or JJ/Pierce/Allen is a question of your playing philosophy. Elite big men are not the sine qua non for championship success as Kevin Garnett, and Shawn Kemp would explain to you. More than likely championship teams are run by elite guards/SF anchored by good big men.

I.E.

Isaiah's Pistons

Chauncey Rip Pistons

Miami Heat

Chicago Bulls (Jordon era)

76ers (Dr. J era)

Celtics (bird era)

Lakers (Post Kareem's prime)

The opposite of these would be

60's Lakers (Wilt)

Early Lakers (Kareems Prime)

Houston in mid 90's

Spurs (Duncan)

My argument is that it is easier to win with Elite guards and good centers, than it is to win with elite big men and good guards. Or at worst it is an even lock.

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Look at the examples you are giving a little closer.

Who was MVP during the 76ers championship season? It wasn't Dr. J. It was center Moses Malone. How was that team not led by a big man?

How about the Shaq-led Lakers as an example of championship teams built around a big man?

The Celtics had HOF big men Kevin McHale and the Chief.

For the Pistons, they were both balanced teams but the second reincarnation was keyed by the frontcourt of the Wallaces as much as Chauncy and Rip, IMO. They were based primarily on their D and those two anchored that D.

[Lascar78]

my argument is not just guards vs big men. I don't know if I trade Kobe, Lebron, or Wade for Dwight Howard. My argument is that Dwight Howard's future is in another class than JJ's from what we see at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

[Johnnybravo4]

You could make arguments, but I think that in all of those cases the greatness of the guards transcended the greatness of the big men. One couldn't have won without the other but I think that in those cases the guards shined more.

I mean when Shaq had no guard he won nothing

When Moses had no guard he won nothing

Mchale and Parrish are HOFers, but mainly because they won championships. The difference makers were Bird, Dennis Johnson, Ainge, etc.

The New pistons were anchored by their defense from the Wallaces, but it was Chauncey and Rip who carried that team to the championship.

[CBAreject]

aren't you in med school at mercer?

[CBAreject]

WTF did Kobe win without Shaq? Shaq's Lakers were still awesome when Kobe was a non-factor.

It's tough to talk about championship teams that had just "solid" big men and list the Heat, where a Hall-of-Fame center plays.

I have to echo AHF about the Celts, too. The Celtics had a 3 HOF'er frontcourt. Yes, Bird was great, but Robert Parrish and Kevin McHale were both sick 19/10 guys. SICK! I wish we had just 1 19/10 guy. Bird wins nothing without McHale and Parrish. However, a team of Parrish and McHale could've been a strong playoff team (albeit not a dynasty) with just a fair small forward in Bird's place. The Celts had backcourt players that they could swap out with several players and still win. They managed to always get solid guards, but they weren't the stars.

I'll take your Pistons teams, though. They are examples that it can work. You still need strong interior D, though. You can't just outrun and outgun your opponent and win. The great thing about star bigs is that they not only give you that crucial D, but they also give you high percentage buckets. That's how Tim Duncan can control a game without ever looking flashy. He takes high percentage shots and makes you take low percentage shots.

[Final_quest]

Yeah, you could probably substitute Zaza for Moses, Parrish/Mchale, Shaq, Wallaces and get the same results. Their contributions were overrated.

[DJlaysitup]

I think you have to go with the team with the best young player...and you have to put a premium on the PG spot and the 5. That said, I think NOK with Paul slightly beats out Orlando with Howard (for many of the reasons discussed above about Howard's game). Either way you would have a solid "top-shelf" base to build on - meaning that if you (the GM) does everything right, there is a reasonable chance of topping out as a champoinship team or contender and not peaking at the at a lower level.

Depending on maturation - there is a good chance that I would say "none of the above" at the same time next year...but right now it would be NOK by a nose.

[Johnnybravo4]

I am saying this. Shaq could not win without Penny, Wade or Kobe or even make the playoffs without those guys.

But if you gave Kobe, or Wade a Mutumbo type player in his prime and they still go to the finals.

If you gave Bird a front court of Tree Rollins and Darrell Dawkins and they still would be a finals team.

A team with an elite big man and garbage guards are like lions with no teeth, but give me some elite guards and garbage big men, and they could still be championship contenders.

[AHF]

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I mean when Shaq had no guard he won nothing

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You know you are talking about his rookie year and only his rookie year, right?

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When Moses had no guard he won nothing

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He won a championship with good guards of Maurice Cheeks averaging 12.5 points and productive scorer Andew Tony as the guards on the team. It was the frontline of Moses Malone and Dr. J that lead that team. Moreover, the total reliance on Moses was shown by the fact that the starting PF was Marc Iavaroni who averaged like 5 points a game.

Moses Malone was not only the regular season MVP but was the finals MVP. This is a terrible example for your argument, IMO.

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Mchale and Parrish are HOFers, but mainly because they won championships. The difference makers were Bird, Dennis Johnson, Ainge, etc.

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LMAO at Ainge/Johnson > McHale and Parrish.

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The New pistons were anchored by their defense from the Wallaces, but it was Chauncey and Rip who carried that team to the championship.

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How did they "carry" the team to the championship moreso than the Wallaces?

[Johnnybravo4]

Without RIP they don't get out of the EC.

[Sothron]

Bird/McHale/Parrish is the greatest frontcourt in the history in professional basketball. The only reason they won titles in the 80's and were as great as they were was due to that fact. They had good guards in Dennis Johnson, Ainge and some good parts in Cedric Maxwell, Bill Walton etc. But without that frontcourt? Please.

McHale is considered by just about every coach, player and expert as the greatest low post scorer to ever play the game. The guy was unreal in how he could move his body and still find a way to kiss the glass or rim and get the ball in the basket.

Parrish was consistent. He could rebound, score in the paint and more than anything he was very good on defense. He could make great centers work for their points.

Bird goes without saying.

[AHF]

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Without RIP they don't get out of the EC.

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Without the Wallaces they don't either. What makes Rip more important?

[Johnnybravo4]

Without the trainer they don't make it out of the EC. Without the pulling guard the Steelers don't win the superbowl.

What I am talking about is making plays and contributions in the clutch. Without the stunning performances of Chauncey and Rip they don't win.

[Lascar78]

that championship was a result of the pistons' suffocating defense, which started with their interior defense, and particularly the wallaces. Rip and Chauncey were most visible on offense, but they won their championship on D, all starting with the wallaces.

[exodus]

I always get a kick of watching AHF and JohnnyBravo argue.

[AHF]

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Without the trainer they don't make it out of the EC. Without the pulling guard the Steelers don't win the superbowl.

What I am talking about is making plays and contributions in the clutch. Without the stunning performances of Chauncey and Rip they don't win.

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Again, all you are doing is making conclusions.

Without the stunning D of Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace Detroit doesn't win.

I don't understand your rationale.

For example, you could measure using statistics that claim to determine how many of the teams wins and losses are attributable to particular players:

According to basketball reference, Ben Wallace was responsible for the most wins on the team during the championship season. RIP was responsible for the most losses.

Rasheed's first rull year with the Pistons, he also was statistically responsible for more wins and fewer losses than RIP. (Ben did this again in 2005 as well, by an even bigger margin).

You could likewise use replacement value as a method. Under that method, you would see whether it was easier to replace the contributions of RIP with another SG or the contributions of one of the Wallaces with another PF or C. To me this easily weighs in favor of the frontcourt players. Likewise, I think you could get a backcourt that equaled the PG/SG production of Det more easily than you could get one that equaled the PF/C production of the Wallaces.

What I don't understand, though, is how you are concluding that RIP and Chauncy are more valuable. (For whatever anecdotes are worth, the media described Rasheed in the finals as "Rasheed Wallace hit clutch shot after clutch shot.")

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I was talking about Paul Pierce leading the C's to the ECF.

JJ's game is similar to Pierce's . . . with the potential to become a Clyde Drexler type player ( without the flash ).

You provide adequate interior defense to the Hawks last year, and we easily win 35 - 40 games last year.

That's why the league, including your Bulls, better hope that Shelden comes along slowly in his rookie year, and the rest of our bigs don't show any improvement.

If they do, we're definitely going to be a factor come April.

[DrReality]

We've come too far with this team to bail out now. I'm gonna stick with our young guys and see how they come together. Hopefully we are getting to the good part now.