Has JJ moved to the realm of UNTOUCHABLE?

[Diesel]

Untouchable is a label that some players get.

JJ is not an American Hero like GI JOE... but how untouchable is he?

For instance, if Orlando was to offer us: Hill and Howard for Marvin and JJ would we say No?

Or is it that deep down in our hearts we all want to see:

Howard/Shelden/Smoove/Chillz/Speedy take the court?

IF Toronto were offering Chris Bosh/Alvin Williams for JJ would we have to turn them down?

[Eddielives]

I would have to strongly consider the Bosh trade. Mainly because drafting a guy that has JJ-like skills is not that hard to come by. Finding a proven big like Bosh is rare.

[Final_quest]

I think the untouchable label is given out too easily these days. It seems like every team has 2-3 "untouchable" players.

We talk with GS and their fans tell us Biedrins, Ellis, and probably Diogu are "untouchable." We say that Marvin, Smoove, JJ, and some even say Childress is "untouchable."

What it has really come to mean is that these are our least likely players to trade.

[chillzatl]

I mean c'mon, he's been untouchable. He was brought here to be the man and he proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that he can be THE MAN. That makes him untouchable in the real world.

But when you start throwing around fantasy trades for young potential superstars who are on the cusp of breaking through, there is no such thing as untouchable.

With that said, there's no way AT THIS POINT, that I would trade both Marvin and JJ for G.overtheHILL and Howard. Howard has the look of a potential superstar. But that potential isn't worth a guy who's already doing it and a guy who has just as much potential himself.

[Lascar78]

exactly.

There are guys who truly are untouchable, and very few of them. However, for the most part, "untouchable" guys are guys you would only trade if you know you're clearly getting better talent back. You're not going to risk trading them for a roughly equal trade.

JJ is as untouchable as a hawk gets. I would still trade him for Howard, Dirk, Lebron ... i.e. guys we couldn't get. So realistically, JJ is untouchable.

[exodus]

This is what Diesel said in another thread;

Quote:

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Seeing that everybody wants to talk about Deals that are not on the table as though they are... This is the deal that's not on the table that I would want the most.

When you guys want to talk about the pros and cons of what's really on the table, let me know!

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Then minutes later he throws out this crap;

Quote:

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For instance, if Orlando was to offer us: Hill and Howard for Marvin and JJ would we say No?

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[Diesel]

Well, I tried to use other team USA members in my scenerios... and I shyed away from some of the big names... But there is one big name that does come to mind that will be available before the deadline...

Would you trade JJ for KG?

KG brings intensity.

KG can play several positions.

KG has a developed skillset.

KG would probably love to be on a team that could run and gun.

If Kevin McHale offered the trade... say KG for JJ/Solomon... Would you do it?

[chillzatl]

because the basics of the deal make no sense. They would be losing their forward and bringing in a guard. They would more likely ask for Marvin/Smooth AND JJ, to which I would say NO.

[Diesel]

If you hear fans talk...

They usually proclaim their favorite players as untouchable. I recall this past year, Lascar proclaiming that Ben Wallace was a done deal in Detroit... So much for that.

The truth of the matter is that every GM has to weigh in on the matter differently than a fan. The approach that BK has seemingly taken is that of a GM who acquires young talent with the eye on eventually trading some of it to make a complete team.

In that kind of philosophy, nobody is really untradable except MAYBE the talent that you trade for. IN this case, JJ. So I ask, is JJ untradable?

[Diesel]

Well, for us, we gain a piece in a area where we seem most weak. (The frontcourt)

They would be doing what they need to do.. MOVE ON...

To give it a little more realism for you, let's say JJ/Shelden for KG. You know McHale's staff love those Dukies.

Would you do it?

[Lascar78]

Honestly, I wouldn't, although I would bet many people would. KG is a full 5 years older than JJ, and as much as people don't like to talk about it, he is slowly starting to slow down just a little. Also, as great and skilled as he is, he has never translated that into wins when it counts, and if he was so great, he would have gotten out of the 1st round more than once in 11 NBA seasons. I would rather keep the younger JJ, who wanted to come here and try to lead a team.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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With that said, there's no way AT THIS POINT, that I would trade both Marvin and JJ for G.overtheHILL and Howard. Howard has the look of a potential superstar. But that potential isn't worth a guy who's already doing it and a guy who has just as much potential himself.

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This is actually, the one trade I would do. Mainly because Grant's salary comes off the books in the offseason AND Howard is probably the most dominant prospect. Howard will dominate basketball for the next 12 years if he continues to develop..

I mean, 2nd year out of HS and this guy is pulling down 12.5 rpg.

In a day when there are a very low number of dominating big men, I would take Howard and try to develop the core of Howard, Smoove, and Chillz.

[Final_quest]

Yes I would trade JJ for KG.

[Diesel]

I can't hold KG completely responsible for what's going on in Minny and why they can't win.

Look at what he has had:

A GM who continuously have f----- things up. Seriously, if they were not put out of the 1st round of the draft for 5 years, they were wasting money on guys who had big time flaws...

Then the GM goes out and get coaches with Flaws...

But aside from all that...

People talk about Isiah being the worst GM in the game.. I think you need to reconsider McHale.

I mean, he was giving the gift of KG. The best player in the league at the time... He squandered many of the KG years on bad contracts and worthless personalities.

For that, I don't really buy into the "he never won it" argument. Surround KG with the right players and he will win it.

[Final_quest]

I don't buy that it's KG's fault either. How many years did Olajuwon, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton-Malone play before they finally got to the finals?

I'll take my chances with KG, and I definitely would trade Marvin-JJ for Hill-Howard.

[Lascar78]

I don't know man. Certainly he hasn't had the best teams, but the same can be said of a lot of players, and most of the great ones get out of the first round more than once a decade. I think KG is another example of a guy who can't carry a team, another guy who would be the perfect #2 option, and never had a #1 guy.

[Diesel]

Most of the "great ones" had better teams around them than KG has had.

When KG had Cassell and Spreewell as dysfunctional as they were (personality wise) they made it to the conference finals and lost to the Lakers 4-2 with Cassell missing 3 of the games due to injuries...

That was probably the strongest recent Laker team and they didn't just walk over Minnesota.

The next season, Minnesota was expected to do better but Spreewell sabotaged the season because of his contract negotiations. That's the kind of BS that KG has had to deal with. Teams with players who were Selfish enough to sabotage a season rather than play..

I can't blame KG for that.

Now Minny is the city of bad contracts. They couldn't get better if they tried. Should KG be the blame for that too?

[Sothron]

KG's contract has kept Minnesota from keeping people. People forget (or are too young to remember I suppose) that Minnesota used to have the next "Big 3" in the NBA with KG, Marbury and Googs. Marbury wanted $$$ and to be "the man" on his own team so off he went. Googs left for less money to go a team he felt was closer to winning a title and several knee surgeries and one freak condition that almost killed him and we know how that worked out.

Minnesota knew the Bulls were going to throw the bank at KG so they made him a gigantic offer and he took it. Now with the cap as it has been since his deal (which btw is one of the main reasons the 1997 lockout happened) it has kept Minnesota from really putting together a team around him. Not to mention the whole Joe Smith fiasco which cost them first rounders for years.

If Minnesota had not choked against the Lakers they probably would have won the title that year. But they traded away Sam I Am and Spree went insane thinking he was worth more than he was. So that team was broken up.

[Lascar78]

I'm not even saying finals, I'm saying he's only ever won a playoff series one year in his whole career.

Barkley got out of the 1st round in his rookie year, and 6 of his first 10 seasons for instance.

Ewing did it in his 4th year, and kept it up after that

Hakeem in his 2nd year

Stockton did it as a rookie, Malone as a 2nd year guy.

I'm not saying team plays no part and you need to win championships, but guys who are as good as KG is supposed to be just don't fail to make the playoffs many years, and get knocked out in the first round every year but one. In 11 seasons, he has 4 lottery finishes and 6 1st round knockouts I believe. A true, true stud doesn't let that happen.

[Diesel]

Notice though...

They were able to trade for Spree and Cassell. They were able to sign Jaric, Nestro, Hudson, and other hacks.

Minny's problem is not KG's salary.

Their problem is bad management.

First off, I don't remember exactly what happened with Joe Smith that Made Stern take away 5 first round picks... but that alone can kill a franchise and basically did. I think Stern let up after the third first rounder.

but the damage had been done....

Minnesota missed out on 3 first rounds.

On top of that, Minny has become the garbage can of the league. Whenever there's a player with a bad attitude, you send them to Minny...

If BK leaves Atlanta, They need him in Minny.