Who is your GM: Babcock or BK...

[TroyMcClure]

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Excellent posts. Babcock by a landslide. Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation. Look at the numbers.

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Number of hall of famers on the team when he took over (2)? Number of playoff seasons before he took over? (7 of 8 years)? Number of lottery picks he blew with bad picks or trades (5)? Number he didn't (1)? Number of first round picks he blew (13)? Number he didn't (1)?

(To be fair, you can make arguments that the Augman and Hendu picks were not blown. Also to be fair, you can add in another first rounder for Dan Dickau if you want for the blown column.)

Despite your insulting comments and the lack of substance in your post, I think you find yourself in the minority by arguing that a GM who couldn't draft and who had a mixed record in FA and trades is better suited to take over an expansion team than one who at least has consistently gotten useful players in the draft.

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I don't have the time to soapbox, but I'm a wins and losses kind of guy. There are a number of things BK could have done to make this work. That is what is so sad. He is close, but keeps missing with a Speedy or a Lo. I was basically saying Babcock had teams that went to the playoffs. Has BK? I think Pete would have fired Woody. Really, I don't think he would have hired him. What was so insulting, by the way? I didn't realize how pigeon-holed and nerdy the point you are making was. Sorry. I just thought the question was which one was an idiot, and which one would not stand behind his idiot friend? I like some of BK's picks. His best bud as the coach though? Watch the games. The playoff curve with Woodson would be about 35 years, if he were to coach a new team.

[AHF]

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Because you among others keep claiming those teams "only made it to the first or second round"

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I answered your challenge. Now I challenge you to find one time I have said that. Good luck.

[AHF]

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I don't have the time to soapbox, but I'm a wins and losses kind of guy.

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Give me a team with Dominique Wilkins, Moses Malone, Doc Rivers, etc. and I'll show you a team that wins games.

Give me a team with Glenn Robinson, Shareef, Theo Ratliff and Jason Terry and I'll show you an overpaid lottery team - without a lottery pick. How are those comparable starting points? If the starting points are not comparable why compare bottomline results?

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What was so insulting, by the way?

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You have made a total of four posts. Here are four insults you have already thrown out:

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You're too stupid to know...

Are you an idiot?

Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation

I didn't realize how pigeon-holed and nerdy the point you are making was.

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On the issue of Woodson, I agree he should be gone at this point. However, the question is how do you get a coach that will be an improvement with a totally unstable ownership (and hence GM) situation with the purse-strings tightened until the ASG/Belkin appeal is resolved?

[TexasPete]

You really want to know how to get a top notch coach in here with this ownership situation? That is too easy...

Show him the money. There, you now have a top coach. And I'll bet Marc Iavaroni would rather live in ATL instead of Toronto. My guess is that there are some coaches fully aware of the top young talent on this team and wouldn't mind coaching it.

BTW, I've decided I would rather have crabs than herpes. You can get rid of crabs a lot easier. At this point Woody seems like he is more like herpes cause that joker never leaves.

[AHF]

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You really want to know how to get a top notch coach in here with this ownership situation? That is too easy...

Show him the money. There, you now have a top coach. And I'll bet Marc Iavaroni would rather live in ATL instead of Toronto. My guess is that there are some coaches fully aware of the top young talent on this team and wouldn't mind coaching it.

BTW, I've decided I would rather have crabs than herpes. You can get rid of crabs a lot easier. At this point Woody seems like he is more like herpes cause that joker never leaves.

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Two problems:

(1) Ownership has stripped you of the ability to really go above market in shelling out $$ and you can't sign someone to a long-term contract under the Court order. Hence, unless we are going to go WAY above market for a 3 year deal the $$ security will be better in Toronto.

(2) Why would Iavaroni come to Atlanta at the expense of his $$? Toronto is a great (more international) city so I don't buy that the quality of life in Atlanta is dramatically different. Moreover, if Belkin wins he is very likely to clean house of GM and Coach meaning that your job stability is just not there. On the other hand, Toronto has a GM who has groomed you to be his next head coach and who has revamped his roster just how you like it. Colangelo has worked with you very successfully before.

I can certainly understand why we would want Iavaroni but why would he want to come here before the ownership situation is settled?

[TexasPete]

You could be right but I still think if the Spirit opens up the checkbook they can get Iavaroni. The taxes in Canada are brutal and I think most people would prefer our warmer International city.

The truth is I don't believe the Spirit have the money to get a coach. They cobbled together enough to buy the team but by NBA standards these guys are financial lightweights. The league should require deeper pockets than what these guys have because it hurts the franchise. We needed a better free agency this past off season...and we address our needs with LO and Speedy. What a waste of money and we still have huge PG and defensive issues inside. Turns out we didn't address a darn thing.

[Diesel]

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ou could be right but I still think if the Spirit opens up the checkbook they can get Iavaroni.

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If you were the Spirit and you could "open up the checkbook" and get Iavaroni in Jan, then loose the team in May at the price you originally bought in for. Would you do that?

[Watchman]

Where is the "none of the above" option?

[VarsitySlacker]

Before I'll start, I'm just going to make it clear: When I first started watching the Hawks, Mookie/Smitty/Corbin/Laettner/Mutombo was already in place. Obviously Babcock did something right there, because that was a fun team to watch.

Since then, this is what I've seen:

Mookie Blaylock for Jason Terry - This was a good move. It's also the only draft pick that Babcock didn't screw up. While he had three other picks that turned out to be terrible, you can't fault him for it. From Cal Bowdler on, the only real impact player was AK47, and this was before the Euro-Rush. Foreign players were still a risky proposition.

Steve Smith (and Ed Gray) for JR Rider and Jim Jackson. - I don't care that Smith was old and not going to be good anymore. He was the core of this organization, and this one trade turned the Hawks into a laughingstock. Rider was a bad idea from the start, and didn't even manage to last the season. And honestly, it wouldn't really shock me if the losing attitude he created rubbed off on Jason Terry, though I have no proof for that.

Draft Pick for Lorenzon Wright - yeah.

Jim Jackson for Brevin Knight - Yeah, I think Knight is a good point guard. But at the time, Jackson was our only legitimate scorer, so without him who was Brevin going to dish it to? I remember seeing this on Yahoo! and being completely confused.

Dikembe for Kukoc, Nazr, Theo, and Speedy - I can't fault Babcock for Theo being chronically injured in his stay with the Hawks. In theory, I still like this trade - Kukoc did a hell of a job for the team, Nazr was a legitimate post player (and still is), and people forget that Speedy was in this trade as well, but Babcock dropped him. THAT I can fault him for.

(Gasol), Knight, and Wright for Shareef - In theory, this is two lottery picks and a PG that's still going for Shareef, but I'm not going to argue that. I liked this trade when it happened, and while I would rather have Gasol, Shareef was a hometown boy and certainly did his share here.

Draft Pick for Glenn Robinson - Yeah. That one turned out well.

In all fairness, everyone expected JT/Diaw/Big Dog/Shareef/Theo to be better than they were. Unfortunately, they weren't, and they cost a LOT of money to be chronically bad.

Trading away the Tinsley/Parker pick for pretty much nothing.

Babcock apparantly realized that he couldn't draft, and thus had no use for draft picks. In retrospect, a core of Tony Parker, Jason Terry, Pau Gasol, and Amare Stoudamire would be pretty nice right now.

BK cleaned up the mess of overpriced veterans and got draft picks in cohesion with getting ride of Reef and Theo. He got rid of Nazr (mistake) and probably did not get enough for any of Rasheed/Walker/Harrington/Nazr. While his draft picks aren't perfect, he's yet to pick an Ed Gray or a Dermarr Johnson (or Hanno Mottola or Cal Bowdler). Atlanta also has the "they'll get better as they get older" excuse, which I don't think anybody could say about Big Dog and Shareef.

I happen to think BK isn't a bad GM. Not a great one, but certainly not at the level of Billy King and Isaiah Thomas. I think Speedy/JJ/Marvin/Smoove/Zaza is a good team, but has a bad coach and bad luck.

Babcock lucked into Smitty being better than everyone thought. He also was unfortunate enough for Theo to be injured more than anyone expected. I think the good moves that created the Smitty team and the bad moves that created the Big Dog team can cancel each other out, but Babcock's inability to build for the future created a hopeless situation in Atlanta.

I'll take Speedy/JJ/Marvin/Smith/Zaza over any hand-crafted Babcock team post-Smitty trade. In fact, in about two years, I may be saying that over any Babcock team ever. But that's just me hoping.

[TexasPete]

Getting Iavaroni in mid year isn't possible but if we could do it...oh, yeah, all day. Having the team taken away is a totally separate issue. The Spirit need to go forward as if they will own the team forever.

This ownership group needs to make at least an interim change right now. Woody can't coach a lick, is a poor end game strategist, and the team will finish this year as the NBA's worst team again with him all year. At some point this team must show progress and this team has more talent than in the past. Why should we be this bad? Look at all the close losses. Injuries are no excuse because many games were there and still they lost.

I don't think this ownership group has a clue so I'm pessimistic about a change because a change is obvious and these guys don't do the obvious.

Here is the interesting part: As fans, many of us know the Spirit are essentially nutless and incompetant. The franchise can't sink low enough to embarrass these guys into making any substantial changes...or bold initiatives. They just sit there and when a move is made its a Speedy/Lo type of move. And yet, the fans all look at Belkin as the anti-christ. We assume that he would be worse. Maybe. But he couldn't be much worse than the NBA's laughingstock every year. To me, all he could be is just as bad as the Spirit because I'm convinced these lovable losers are the bottom of the well.

[Diesel]

You make good points, many I agree with.

I think the 2 things that you miss about Babcock:

1. His drafting.

Babcock never really drafted well at all. Our team was futureless with Babcock at the GM wheel. Just imagine had he not given away our picks to Milwaukee... Right now, we could have either Amare Stoudamire or Chris Wilcox. Instead, we have memories of Big Dog.

Just imagine, all the players we missed out on who would be our future because he wanted to give up 2 picks for Lo Wright.

Then look down the line at every year, he was picking... It's like he had the Price is right Wheel made in the War Room and had each available draft pick placed on the wheel.

2. Spending Money

You talk of the teams that Babcock made but Babcock spent money like water. Our team stayed over the salary cap. I can't remember a time that we were under the salary cap under Babcock. I've heard the argument as to why Chris Crawford was a "Cheap pickup". However, in the year we picked up CC, he was not cheap to us. We were already cap strapped. The thing that I learned from Babcock is that you better have a winning team in place if you're going to be over the cap.

Dominique

I know it's before your time..

But 10 times worse than trading Smitty, Babcock is the GM that traded the face of the franchise for NOTHING and he did it while we were on top??

There has to be some eternal punishment for that. I mean, in the year 2082, people will still be saying, Babcock sucked!

[AHF]

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You make good points, many I agree with.

I think the 2 things that you miss about Babcock:

1. His drafting.

Babcock never really drafted well at all. Our team was futureless with Babcock at the GM wheel. Just imagine had he not given away our picks to Milwaukee... Right now, we could have either Amare Stoudamire or Chris Wilcox. Instead, we have memories of Big Dog.

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Actually, you are combining two terrible trades by Babcock. He traded the Amare Stoudamire/Chris Wilcox pick to the Clippers for Lorenzen Wright. He traded our lottery pick that was used to take TJ Ford in the trade for Big Dog.

[Sothron]

Its also no guarantee we would have drafted those players. And Diesel I'm not sure what you are talking about. The Hawks went over the cap I believe the one season where we had the "playoff guarantee" and that was it. Saying Babs was irresponsible with the cap is, like many of your opinions, offbase and totally devoid of reality. I am still wondering what games you watched if you don't think Ty Corbin and Grant Long were great contributors to this team.

Further, this nonsense about trading 'Nique for NOTHING is simply absurd. As was already pointed out Danny Manning had a good career after that until knee injuries ruined his career. Thankfully for us the money we SAVED from Nique and Manning went to signing Dikemebe. We would NEVER have had Deke otherwise. I defy you to seriously tell me you would have rather had Nique post 1994 or Manning post 1994 or Dikemebe post 1994.

[Diesel]

Dude, you must be joking.

The only time when we were not over the cap is when Danny Manning Walked But Babcock quickly spent that money getting Ken "the Snake" Norman and Blair Rasmussen.

We were over the cap when we got Deke for 55 million, Smitty at 8 million per, not to mention Mookie. In fact, the reason why we could only get your boy Corbin is because we were cap strapped.

[gutz]

Point is we could have at least gotton a draft pick or a player we COULD actually have kept and signed for the greatest player to EVER wear a Hawks Uniform. Thats like trading AI for nothing basically. So I guess BK trading Harrington for a draft pick and the capspace it provided IS a good deal then right? OH wait I forgot he can't even sign a FA with this ownership garbage going on. At least he got a 1st round draft pick out of it instead of NOTHING. Your not going to win the argument that Babcock made a good deal when it comes to trading Nique. Babcock even looked like more of a fool when Manning just signed elsewhere after the season was over.

[AHF]

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Its also no guarantee we would have drafted those players.

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It isn't. But giving away literally Pau Gasol, Chris Wilcox, Quentin Richardson and TJ Ford (the guys actually drafted with the picks traded for Lo Wright, Shareef and Big Dog) shows just how bad those trades were in hindsight.

[AHF]

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Because you among others keep claiming those teams "only made it to the first or second round"

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I answered your challenge. Now I challenge you to find one time I have said that. Good luck.

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Still waiting on this.

[Sothron]

You posted more than once that Babcock was essentially a do nothing general manager that inherited Moses Malone and Nique and that anyone could essentially make a playoff team with that.

You also conveniently overlook the fact both of them were on their last legs and that Babcock had to completely gut and refit a brand new team by trading those aging players for young guys who worked out.

Gutzy, I already mentioned earlier that Manning and his agent gave a verbal gentleman's agreement to Babcock that they would resign in Atlanta unless another team gave him an insane contract. Babcock offered him a very fair deal and Manning walked. How was he to know the guy and his agent was a liar? When Manning did walk we used that cap space to sign Dikemebe who was INFINITELY better than either Nique or Manning. So again saying we got "nothing" is completely nonfactual. Dikemebe did not just suddenly appear on the Hawks roster.

[AHF]

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You posted more than once that Babcock was essentially a do nothing general manager that inherited Moses Malone and Nique and that anyone could essentially make a playoff team with that.

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It is true that I posted that Babcock inherited a team with Nique, Moses, Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, etc.

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You also conveniently overlook the fact both of them were on their last legs and that Babcock had to completely gut and refit a brand new team by trading those aging players for young guys who worked out.

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Nique's averages the next four seasons after Babcock took over:

25.9 ppg

28.1 ppg

29.9 ppg

24.4/29.1 ppg

He also averaged 3 of his 5 career highest eFG%s those years. Not exactly keeling over. He was near his last legs when he was traded in 1994. Not when Babcock too over in 1990. If you can't win games with a guy like 1990 Nique and a strong supporting cast you are in trouble.

Doc was near the tail end of his peak at that time. Babcock blew our lottery pick trying to draft his replacement but landed a steal of deal trading for Mookie so that worked out.

Kevin Willis was nowhere near done when Babcock took over. He averaged roughly 16 ppg/10 rpg for the next decade.

Moses was nearly done, although good enough to give 16 and 9 two years after Babcock took over.

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Gutzy, I already mentioned earlier that Manning and his agent gave a verbal gentleman's agreement to Babcock that they would resign in Atlanta unless another team gave him an insane contract. Babcock offered him a very fair deal and Manning walked. How was he to know the guy and his agent was a liar? When Manning did walk we used that cap space to sign Dikemebe who was INFINITELY better than either Nique or Manning. So again saying we got "nothing" is completely nonfactual. Dikemebe did not just suddenly appear on the Hawks roster.

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If Babcock had a deal in place to keep Manning why did Babcock say, and I quote: "We made the trade with the understanding [Manning] wouldn't be back."

[gutz]

Exactly I was looking for that quote. Either way a GM does not make that trade on the heels of a verbal commitment that never happened anyways. That is just being a bad GM to even take an NBA players word that they would resign. So Babcock traded Nique for a player that only played for us for like half a season. Great trade Babcock!!