What has the Joe Johnson trade netted us?

[exodus]

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Joe is very good. How about he win a few games before we all say he's the best since 'Nique

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First of all I never said he was the best since Nique. I said he was better than Smitty.Secondly JJ's first season here was better than Smiths best season here. Anyone can score by taking a lot of shots, but when a guy is shooting a high percentage even though he is the focus of every defense then you know he can play.Walker put up 20 ppg here but he shot a poor percentage. He just took a lot of shots. The three point line is no closer now than it was then and JJ is easily shooting a better percentage than smith did.

[gsuteke]

you know Billy had his sights on Joe Johnson.

why would you trade 3 first rounders and a max contract for a shooting guard? Maybe a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady type shooting guard. Billy had him penciled in as his point guard. those two positions carry different weight in terms of value to a team due to supply and demand.

the draft is always about hype. it always will be. Bargnani is a classic example of hype at #1.

Billy pulled the trigger on his "big deal" a year or two early. as a result the Hawks will be right back in the lottery afer next season and knowing Billy's luck once again it will be a 2006 type draft with no Centers.

[Sothron]

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Joe is very good. How about he win a few games before we all say he's the best since 'Nique

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First of all I never said he was the best since Nique. I said he was better than Smitty.Secondly JJ's first season here was better than Smiths best season here. Anyone can score by taking a lot of shots, but when a guy is shooting a high percentage even though he is the focus of every defense then you know he can play.Walker put up 20 ppg here but he shot a poor percentage. He just took a lot of shots. The three point line is no closer now than it was then and JJ is easily shooting a better percentage than smith did.

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I love the fact you can't even acknowledge how different the NBA was in Smitty's days and how much softer and easier it is to score in Joe's days. Its like comparing pitcher's numbers in the juiced ball days to the days of Gibson and Koufax in baseball. No comparison.

[Lascar78]

Smith was drafted in 91. In 91 the scoring average league wide was 106.3 per game. 2 teams average that much today. Scoring went down some in the late 90s but we're not talking about a major difference. Today's defenders are also much more athletic. And again, having two defenders on you would be a lot harder than one defender who's allowed a little more contact.

[exodus]

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I love the fact you can't even acknowledge how different the NBA was in Smitty's days

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You're right it is different. In Smitty's day it was much easier for a big guard to post up a smaller one. Now zones are legal and a player can be double teamed when he doesn't even have the ball.The elimination of the hand check has benefited smaller, quicker players like Nash, Tony Parker, Wade, etc.How many post players are MVP candidates this year? How about last year?

[AHF]

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Joe is very good. How about he win a few games before we all say he's the best since 'Nique

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First of all I never said he was the best since Nique. I said he was better than Smitty.Secondly JJ's first season here was better than Smiths best season here. Anyone can score by taking a lot of shots, but when a guy is shooting a high percentage even though he is the focus of every defense then you know he can play.Walker put up 20 ppg here but he shot a poor percentage. He just took a lot of shots. The three point line is no closer now than it was then and JJ is easily shooting a better percentage than smith did.

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I love the fact you can't even acknowledge how different the NBA was in Smitty's days and how much softer and easier it is to score in Joe's days. Its like comparing pitcher's numbers in the juiced ball days to the days of Gibson and Koufax in baseball. No comparison.

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I don't think it is quite that different but it clearly is different. Look at the numbers during the Gibson/Koufax era compared to the juiced ball days.Today, the D is not as physical as in the 90s and you can see the difference in the leading scorers. Different but not quite worlds apart:Example:1986Dominique Wilkins 30.3 Adreian Dantley 29.8 Alex English 29.8 Larry Bird 25.8 Purvis Short 25.5 Kiki Vandeweghe 24.8 Moses Malone 23.8 Hakeem Olajuwon 23.5 Mike Mitchell 23.4 World B. Free 23.4 1996Michael Jordan 30.4 Hakeem Olajuwon 26.9 Shaquille O'Neal 26.6 Karl Malone 25.7 David Robinson 25.0 Charles Barkley 23.2 Alonzo Mourning 23.2 Mitch Richmond 23.1 Patrick Ewing 22.5 Juwan Howard 22.1 2006Kobe Bryant 35.4 Allen Iverson 33.0 LeBron James 31.4 Gilbert Arenas 29.3 Dwyane Wade 27.2 Paul Pierce 26.8 Dirk Nowitzki 26.6 Carmelo Anthony 26.5 Michael Redd 25.4 Ray Allen 25.1

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2006Kobe Bryant 35.4 Allen Iverson 33.0 LeBron James 31.4 Gilbert Arenas 29.3 Dwyane Wade 27.2 Paul Pierce 26.8 Dirk Nowitzki 26.6 Carmelo Anthony 26.5 Michael Redd 25.4 Ray Allen 25.1

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Not one post player in that bunch. Why? Because it is harder to score in the post now.

[Sothron]

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2006Kobe Bryant 35.4 Allen Iverson 33.0 LeBron James 31.4 Gilbert Arenas 29.3 Dwyane Wade 27.2 Paul Pierce 26.8 Dirk Nowitzki 26.6 Carmelo Anthony 26.5 Michael Redd 25.4 Ray Allen 25.1

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Not one post player in that bunch. Why? Because it is harder to score in the post now.

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And the almost complete lack of low post scorers in the NBA might have something to do with that as well.Today's rules grossly enable players like Johnson and hinder players like Smitty. Put Johnson on that Hawks team and he'd be good, a slight upgrade on Augmon, but not up to Smitty's level. Put Smitty in today's game and he'd put up better numbers than Johnson. Not to mention provide much better defense and leadership. Joe isn't a leader, he's just like SAR: a good kid, no doubt, but never speaks up, no leadership skills whatsoever. Too quiet. Smitty wasn't a chest beater or a screamer but he was a leader.

[exodus]

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Today's rules grossly enable players like Johnson and hinder players like Smitty. Put Johnson on that Hawks team and he'd be good, a slight upgrade on Augmon, but not up to Smitty's level. Put Smitty in today's game and he'd put up better numbers than Johnson.

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That is just flat out crazy. Augmon probably didn't hit a 3 his whole career.You just said Smitty was better in the post than JJ yet YOU refuse to acknowlege that it is easier to score in the post then than now because of the rules.Saying the rules hurt Smitty but help JJ is a joke. The new rules BENEFIT QUICKER PLAYERS, and Smitty was not in that camp. He struggled on defense against quicker players then and would struggle even more now. Ever heard of Tim Duncan? How about KG? Were they MVP candidates (and winners) before the rules change? yes. Are they now? No.

[Sothron]

Both of them are still putting up good if not great numbers. The Spurs are an aging team at this point and KG still have nothing around him.You can believe what you want but Smitty was a better player than Johnson. I've watched just about every game from both of them and Smitty was simply better as an all-around player. In terms of leadership its not even close.

[exodus]

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a slight upgrade on Augmon

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Augmon never averaged 15 ppg in his career. He made a total of 12 three pointers in his career.He never averaged double digits after he left the Hawks. The fact that you would compare him to JJ shows you are completely clueless.

[Sothron]

Augmon wasn't asked to be a primary scorer. Clue for you: Joe wouldn't be asked to be anything but a fourth banana on those old Hawks teams either.

[frosgrim]

Good post summarizing player movement; however, you missed one of the most important events during the past 3 years- The Belkin saga. Belkin's legal harassment of the ASG has severely limited what BK could do. IMO, BK would have sent Harrington to GS this summer if the ruling from the court hadn't come through. If I remember correctly, we would have netted something like Murphy, Ellis, and possibly a pick. That would have REALLY helped this year's team. Murphy, even with his contract, would have been exactly what Woody wants in a big man (pick and pop). Ellis would have been a significant back court addition. Heck, he would be starting now. I am just stating that BK's vision included being able to use the cap space he created unfettered, but with the court ruling, he has severe limitations. Note, that this isn't an endorsement of BK, its an observation of the events and what I think was in the plans.

[exodus]

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Augmon wasn't asked to be a primary scorer

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Ivey isn't asked to be a primary scorer either. The reason is that he can't score.Augmon had no shot which is why he was a bench player his whole career after he left the Hawks. HE ONLY MADE 12 3s IN HIS CAREER and you are trying to compare him to JJ? WTF

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Joe wouldn't be asked to be anything but a fourth banana on those old Hawks teams either.

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So now you are saying Mookie and Deke were better on offense than JJ? That might be the dumbest thing i have seen posted on the board this season.

[Sothron]

As committed as were to having Deke establish the inside, yes, I think JJ would have a diminished capacity to the point where he'd have a similiar role to his last year in Phoenix. He'd take more shots, no doubt, but he wouldn't put up the numbers he's making now.And btw I didn't say Augmon was better. I said JJ would have been an upgrade. Not on defense though, Augmon was a sensational defensive guard.

[jerrywest]

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Augmon wasn't asked to be a primary scorer

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Ivey isn't asked to be a primary scorer either. The reason is that he can't score.Augmon had no shot which is why he was a bench player his whole career after he left the Hawks. HE ONLY MADE 12 3s IN HIS CAREER and you are trying to compare him to JJ? WTF

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Joe wouldn't be asked to be anything but a fourth banana on those old Hawks teams either.

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So now you are saying Mookie and Deke were better on offense than JJ? That might be the dumbest thing i have seen posted on the board this season.

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At least he didn't say JJ is a slight upgrade over Tyrone Corbin.

[jerrywest]

Sothron - Please don't bang your head on the wall every time hawks make a bad play.

[Sothron]

Insults aside, Smitty was the better all around player than JJ. Period, end of discussion.

[exodus]

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As committed as were to having Deke establish the inside

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WTF are you talking about? Deke's best year here he averaged only 13 ppg.

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I think JJ would have a diminished capacity to the point where he'd have a similiar role to his last year in Phoenix.

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OMFG you are nuts? Are you seriously trying to compare the scoring challenged Hawks to one of the top scoring NBA teams in history? WTFThe reason the Hawks never got past the second round is that they lacked scoring.

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I said JJ would have been an upgrade.

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You said he would have been a slight upgrade which is just plain nuts. Augmon was a bench player his whole career after he left the Hawks.

[exodus]

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Insults aside, Smitty was the better all around player than JJ. Period, end of discussion.

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In your fantasy world maybe but not in reality.Anyone who thinks JJ would be the fourth offensive option on those Hawks teams is clearly disconnected from reality.