Shelden Williams vs Al Horford

[AtLaS]

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I can look at SW 20 more lbs

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What 20 lbs are you talking about? All indications say that he weighs 5 lbs more than Horford.

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and, knowing that while strength doesn't always translate evenly, it generally does, extrapolate that SW is considerably stronger than Horford.

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No it doesn't unless there is a HUGE gap in between them in a certain workout. Obviously if someone HUGELY outperforms someone in bench press (compare Horford to Wright), then obviously Horford would be stronger in pretty much everything else. Shelden only has a slight advantage in bench (maybe 20 total lbs in his bench max), which isn't very much. It's VERY possible that Horford is just as strong in other areas. However, I'm not making that assumption, I'm just saying it isn't fair to claim that Shelden is clearly stronger in other areas either.

If the workout that the NBA did was squats, and Horford did 26 reps to Shelden's 20, would you conclude that Horford could bench more than Shelden? No, because arm strength is different from leg strength.

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BTW, I'm 34 yo, weigh 196 lbs, and can bench 185 for 14 reps. Just like SW did 6 more than Horford, Horford did 6 more than I. I guess my legs are stronger than Horford's!

It isn't all that much if you train.

W

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I'm taking that as a joke because it was pretty funny. Good one Walt!

[leftwich]

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Shelden dominated the college ranks while Horford was there playing... There was no doubt in college that when somebody talked about the best Center prospects, that Shelden's name automatically came before Horford's. Should i remind you: 2 time defensive player of the year, 1st team all american, and #3 in voting for National Player of the year. These are distinctions that Horford don't have.

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How would you feel about the Hawks dropping Shelden and Horford and signing Christian Laettner?

Since you have no concept for skills that will translate to the NBA, I'm anticipating that you'll be all for this.

Also, Shelden was probably the 10th ranked prospect in a weaker draft. Horford was the third ranked prospect in one of the strongest drafts in the last 10-15 years. Don't act like that's irrelevant.

[Diesel]

2 blocks playing less minutes coming from the wing... vs. being center. That's much bigger than you know.

A wing player who can rival a center in the zone defense (in blocks) is a good shot blocker. Sorta like Josh Smith and AK-47... These guys are not the norm. Usually, in a zone, the Center position gets more blocks because more offense comes his way. What Noah did at Florida is pretty good!

[sick_five]

I'd just like to add that blocks shouldn't be the end all stat in determining defense... Shotblocking is only one area of defense. If you block someone's shot it's good, but the object is to keep the other guy from scoring, and you can do that often without blocking a shot.

Just worth mentioning I thought. We will all have to wait and see how things transpire on the court.

[Diesel]

I agree 100%. Smoove is a great shot blocker but not a great positional defender. I was just recognizing that Noah was also a great shot blocker (as evidence by championship game against UCLA) where his shotblocking controlled the game.

[cyman3]

I think Noah will be a better version of Chris Anderson. w/o the drama and w/ more heart.

a fan favorite, energy player who can be a solid role player as a starter or as a backup player.

[saloonyk8]

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I think Noah will be a better version of Chris Anderson. w/o the drama and w/ more heart.

a fan favorite, energy player who can be a solid role player as a starter or as a backup player.

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I think Varejao probably the best comparison.

[Guest Walter]

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Shelden only has a slight advantage in bench (maybe 20 total lbs in his bench max), which isn't very much.

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Uh, wrong. That is a considerable amount. I've been to bench competitions and squated in competitions before (10 years ago). When the maxes are probably in the 300- low 400s, 20 lbs is ALOT!

The ACSM indicates that whatever you can rep 10 times is 75% of your max. With SW getting AT LEAST 5 more reps than Horford... 1) I guaran-d@mn-tee you SW max is more than 20 lbs greater than Horford's and 2) even 20 lbs in bench at this relative strength level is significant.

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It's VERY possible that Horford is just as strong in other areas.

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No it isn't. It's HIGHLY unlikely. Remember, I benched 185, 14 times. That's means I'm 70% percent as strong as Horford in bench press at 185 and Horford is 80% as strong as SW. Now if a 20% difference isn't significant to you then it's hard to imagine why a 30% difference would be to you. In short, IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT I AM JUST AS STRONG AS HORFORD IN OTHER AREAS.

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However, I'm not making that assumption, I'm just saying it isn't fair to claim that Shelden is clearly stronger in other areas either.

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I'm thinking that the only FAIR claim is to believe that SW is 20% stronger than Horford, PERIOD. He demonstrated he was. Other claims don't involve SW or Horford particularly. You are simply saying that it is MERELY POSSIBLE any one individual can be 20% stronger in bench and not as strong in other areas. This MERE POSSIBILITY has NOTHING to do with SW or Horford and frankly could equally as "fairly" lean in favor of SW. SW MIGHT be 40% stronger elsewhere relative to Horford. You do NOT know that if there is any difference in strength aside from bench that it would negate a 20% difference much less be in Horford's favor. It could just as "fairly" fall in SW's favor.

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If the workout that the NBA did was squats, and Horford did 26 reps to Shelden's 20, would you conclude that Horford could bench more than Shelden? No, because arm strength is different from leg strength.

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Whatever.

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BTW, I'm 34 yo, weigh 196 lbs, and can bench 185 for 14 reps. Just like SW did 6 more than Horford, Horford did 6 more than I. I guess my legs are stronger than Horford's!

It isn't all that much if you train.

W

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I'm taking that as a joke because it was pretty funny. Good one Walt!

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[sick_five]

Does Al have longer arms than Shelden?

Another thing... I thought that I read that Al could have went beyond 20 but felt that he had shown enough... not sure, but I seem to remmeber reading something like that.

[Guest Walter]

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Does Al have longer arms than Shelden?

Another thing... I thought that I read that Al could have went beyond 20 but felt that he had shown enough... not sure, but I seem to remmeber reading something like that.

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HaHaHaHa.

Whatever.

I stopped at 14 because my cell phone rang, too.

W

[Guest Walter]

[Guest Walter]

That's how much stronger SW is than Horford. Maybe SW is 40% stronger than Horford "elsewhere". Maybe they are the same strength "elsewhere". But you cannot consider one without equally considering the other. That's why you don't assume anything. SW simply is 20% stronger for the sake of this conversation. Doesn't make SW a better prospect, but it does put Horford's relative strength at issue.

Horford's strength at center is not an advantage. It's also not a disadvantage either. Unfortunately, he's at a height/length/size disadvantage already and 3rd overall picks shouldn't have a d@mn thing average or below about them at their projected position.

W

[leftwich]

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Horford's strength at center is not an advantage. It's also not a disadvantage either. Unfortunately, he's at a height/length/size disadvantage already and 3rd overall picks shouldn't have a

d@mn

thing average or below about them at their projected position.

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Adam Morrison was the three pick last season. He was at a huge disadvantage in terms of quickness. Ben Gordon was the third pick in 2004, size disadvantage. Mike Dunleavey, 2002 (see Morrison).

I don't think Horford suffers physical disadvantages to the extent of any of those guys, and that's 3 in just the last 5 years.

A lot of people are forgetting that Al Horford is a better basketball player than SW. Unlike Sheldon, Horford's got a midrange game that will force guys like Zydrunas Ilgauskus to guard him out to 18 feet, opening things up for JJ, Smoove, and (hopefully) Marvin to slash to the basket.

[bfwolf]

Back to the original point of this thread, yes, I am willing to go on record saying SW will outperform AH this year.

Not saying I like SW's game, just not enamored with AH's either, and SW has a year of NBA experience on him.

I noticed that nobody else has been willing to go on record one way or the other here--come on folks!

[Guest Walter]

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Adam Morrison was the three pick last season. He was at a huge disadvantage in terms of quickness. Ben Gordon was the third pick in 2004, size disadvantage. Mike Dunleavey, 2002 (see Morrison).

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...or even Ben Gordon who creates a mismatch disadvantage for his team, particularly in worse drafts, instill confidence about the Horford pick?

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I don't think Horford suffers physical disadvantages to the extent of any of those guys, and that's 3 in just the last 5 years.

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At the center position he might. He didn't demonstrate the talent in college to suggest he would over come this level of liability against NBA centers. You don't want your 3rd overall pick center playing "up" 82 games out of 82 games unless he's uber talented and a freak. I never saw remotely THAT level from Horford at UF.

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A lot of people are forgetting that Al Horford is a better basketball player than SW.

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Who didn't produce hardly as well in college. Hmmm?

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Unlike Sheldon, Horford's got a midrange game that will force guys like Zydrunas Ilgauskus to guard him out to 18 feet, opening things up for JJ, Smoove, and (hopefully) Marvin to slash to the basket.

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I really haven't seen anything close to that range on Horford. Sorry. Your Pf, maybe, but do you really want to see your center 18' away from the basket anyhow, when JS is your Pf. Talk about a fast break for the other team. Your center shooting 18' bombs while only JS to rebound. Bad idea.

W

[AtLaS]

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2 blocks playing less minutes coming from the wing... vs. being center. That's much bigger than you know.

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WTF you're still using this? Since when has Noah played on the wing? Him and Horford both play the center position about an equal amount, neither was the full time center. Saying Noah played on the wing is like saying Steve Nash posted Shaq up and scored 12x in a row.

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Usually, in a zone, the Center position gets more blocks because more offense comes his way. What Noah did at Florida is pretty good!

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That's not true at all. Teams play a zone to keep players out of the lane, they play zone to force the other team to shoot. Do I need to teach you more basketball 101?

[AtLaS]

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I've been to bench competitions and squated in competitions before (10 years ago). When the maxes are probably in the 300- low 400s, 20 lbs is ALOT!

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It's definitely a considerable amount, but not enough to conclude that Shelden's leg strength (which has nothing to do with bench) is stronger than Horfords IMO.

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The ACSM indicates that whatever you can rep 10 times is 75% of your max. With SW getting AT LEAST 5 more reps than Horford... 1) I

guaran-d@mn-tee

you SW max is more than 20 lbs greater than Horford's

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You're right, 6 reps is probably a little more than 20 lbs greater.

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This MERE POSSIBILITY has NOTHING to do with SW or Horford and frankly could equally as "fairly" lean in favor of SW. SW MIGHT be 40% stronger elsewhere relative to Horford.

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You're right, it is possible. But it's also possible that Horford is just as strong, which is why it's not fair to say Shelden is stronger everywhere else. BTW it's also going to be hard for me to say that Shelden's legs are stronger considering that Horford weighs only 5 lbs less and beats Shelden's vertical by 2" and completely trumps his 3/4 court speed.

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If the workout that the NBA did was squats, and Horford did 26 reps to Shelden's 20, would you conclude that Horford could bench more than Shelden? No, because arm strength is different from leg strength.

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Whatever.

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I didn't think so.

[Guest Walter]

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I've been to bench competitions and squated in competitions before (10 years ago). When the maxes are probably in the 300- low 400s, 20 lbs is ALOT!

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It's definitely a considerable amount, but not enough to conclude that Shelden's leg strength (which has nothing to do with bench) is stronger than Horfords IMO.

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1) What is an amount that would be conclusive (whatever "conclusive" means)? Remember I'm only 30% less strong than Horford in bench press. SW is 20% stronger than Horford. It must strangely and magically be somewhere between 20 and 30%. Who knows. My legs may be currently stronger than Horfords. The evidence is "inconclusive".

2) Again, SW could be 40% stronger elsewhere JUST AS LIKELY as Horford is merely equally as strong elsewhere based upon SW's being 20% stronger in the 185 lb bench press.

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The ACSM indicates that whatever you can rep 10 times is 75% of your max. With SW getting AT LEAST 5 more reps than Horford... 1) I

guaran-d@mn-tee

you SW max is more than 20 lbs greater than Horford's

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You're right, 6 reps is probably a little more than 20 lbs greater.

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Believe me, when I'm lifting it it does. More and more each year.

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This MERE POSSIBILITY has NOTHING to do with SW or Horford and frankly could equally as "fairly" lean in favor of SW. SW MIGHT be 40% stronger elsewhere relative to Horford.

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You're right, it is possible. But it's also possible that Horford is just as strong, which is why it's not fair to say Shelden is stronger everywhere else. BTW it's also going to be hard for me to say that Shelden's legs are stronger considering that Horford weighs only 5 lbs less and beats Shelden's vertical by 2" and completely trumps his 3/4 court speed.

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I don't believe "fair to say" applies to either. I think it is ONLY fair to say that SW is 20% stronger. NOT that SW is 40% stronger or Horford is equally strong elsewhere. You may want to speculate but that has NOTHING to do with SW or Horford themselves. Only to do with mere possibilities and rare exceptions. Frankly, looking at the two as lifters or power individuals, SW complete passes the eye test and Horford doesn't to me. I've been lifting a long time and at one time "competitively". I feel pretty comfident about my eye testing abilities, even picking øut the unlikely exceptionally strong people.

Horford isn't weak but he isn't exceptionally strong. I sense that he's a strong worker and can get stronger, but frankly I do not EVER see him being as strong as SW. EVER! That is a hard hill to climb for anyone. That isn't the crux of whether Horford will be a good pro or make for the right pick, but if we have the desire to play him at center it makes a significant impact. The ONLY reason that we picked SW to play center was he was so EXCEPTIONALLY strong. Horford is a little taller and longer than SW but still not good much less exceptional for the center position. If his strength isn't exceptional there (it isn't, if his skills aren't exceptional there (they aren't), even if lesser things like if his quickness isn't exceptional there (it isn't), on top of his height/length not being good there, we have found ourselves a very average "center" as a top 3 pick Pf.

W

[AtLaS]

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I think it is ONLY fair to say that SW is 20% stronger.

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In bench.

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Only to do with mere possibilities and rare exceptions.

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It's not that rare, but whatever. You don't consider the fact that Horford weighed in only 5 lbs less, and has a greater vertical and faster speed that his legs don't have a decent possibility of being stronger?

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Frankly, looking at the two as lifters or power individuals, SW complete passes the eye test and Horford doesn't to me. I've been lifting a long time and at one time "competitively". I feel pretty comfident about my eye testing abilities, even picking øut the unlikely exceptionally strong people. Horford isn't weak but he isn't exceptionally strong. I sense that he's a strong worker and can get stronger, but frankly I do not EVER see him being as strong as SW. EVER!

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You mean this guy?

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if his skills aren't exceptional there (they aren't)

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That's just more useless jabber that isn't true. Horford is 20x more skilled offensively than Shelden is. Horford had the best back to the basket game on offense in the draft by FAR, and will instantly have a decent one in the NBA, with much room for improvement. That's ESPECIALLY for the center position, where offensive ones are rare commodities.

[TroyMcClure]

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That's just more useless jabber that isn't true. Horford is 20x more skilled offensively than Shelden is.

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That is just stupid, atlas. Prove it or stop using insane hyperbolic phrases. You can't say someone is using useless jabber and then say that. C'mon! He is not 20x better. I would go so far as to say Horford is not 20x better at anything than any person in the Association.