Moderators AHF Posted May 28, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: Quote: You have to be a blind Bk hater to think that Sunds picks were not horrible. I haven't looked at Sund's record that closely. Why don't you point out the All-Stars or near All-Stars he passed on that were considered logical picks at the time? In 2001, the guy taken immediately after Radmanovich was Richard Jefferson (a near All-Star). The next picks were in 2003 and All-Star David West (a logical choice for the PF position) followed in the teens after the #10 and #14 picks (on the PG and PF positions). All-Star Josh Howard went much later and may not be considered "logical" while Leandro Barbosa would have been a better choice at PG but was not projected as high as #14. In 2004, Robert Swift was taken at #12 and followed shortly by near All-Stars Al Jefferson (definitely logical) and Josh Smith (as a SF with Lewis already on the team this may not be considered logical). In 2005, he didn't pass on any All-Stars. The worst you can say is that shortly after Petro was taken Jason Maxiel and David Lee went and the team also could have used them and Monta Ellis went (and the team still had issues at PG). In 2006, Seattle was back in the lottery but didn't miss on any elite players. The pick of Sene seems to be a huge bust but the best that could have been done would have been addressing the PG position with Rondo, Williams, Sergio, etc. * * * For me, I don't think it is all that critical to go blow by blow because GMs are always going to pass on better players - the process is too inexact for that not to be the case. That said, 5 lottery picks (#12, #10, #14, #12, #10) translating into two useful role players (non-starters) doesn't impress me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruJerz Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 dont know too much about this guy but from his resume i can tell he will always be active and willing to make moves..I hope he keeps Woody for at least the start of the season because he deserves it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHFan Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 We are not in a position where we have to worry about the draft right away anyway. Our priorities need to be re-signing the guys we already have, and his experience will be important along those lines. As we all know, the draft is a crapshoot anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkNJersey Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 NBA Radio, seems to like the hire. And even mentioned, he's been a finalist/canidaate for at least 10 openings the last 7 years. And he's an uptempo GM. So he has some reputation. I like the hire and he can win over the fanbase, with one move..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDude Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 omg, i just realized this is the guy that signed calvin booth to that contract..... we suck...hell the only thing that's good is at least he 1)he's not afraid to make moves, 2)he likes to get big men and we only need a good backup defensive one... i hope he looks at this team as a whole and as individual units and what it is built for and then from there, assess the situation on what players it's best to go for.....not just throwing names out there and trying to get another name.. in the meantime, can woody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 ...as the Hawks with the ASG can expect. I agree with some that if Sund cannot select his own coach and is strapped to Woody, this makes little sense. BTW, 2001 (12th) = Vladamir Radmanovic just after Kedrick Brown and just before richard jefferson, troy murphy, steven hunter, and kirk haston = average 2002 no 1st rder 2003 (14th) = Luke Ridnour (14th) - just after Marcus Banks and just before Reece Gaines, troy bell, zarko cabarkapa = good. 2004 (12th) = Robert Swift (ACL tear) - just after Luke Jackson and Andris Biedrins and just before Telfair, Humphries, Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder, Josh Smith = average to poor with incomplete due to injury 2005 (25th) Johan Petro = good 2006 (10th) Saer Sene just after Patrick O'Bryant and just before JJ Redick, Hilton Armstrong, and Sefolosha = incomplete/average in a horrible draft. 2007 Durant = Very Good I don't see a particularly good or bad drafting record, but I see no instance where he picked the worst of considered players or picked for the weakest of positions/against need. Thankfully, we are no longer at the point of rebuilding dependent upon drafting and Sund's deal for Allen was very good. Lastly, we couldn't do much better considering our ownership situation. Hopefully we'll get in on talks with Avery ASAP or at the very least get on without woody. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 28, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: We are not in a position where we have to worry about the draft right away anyway. Our priorities need to be re-signing the guys we already have, and his experience will be important along those lines. As we all know, the draft is a crapshoot anyway And as we know, once you are in the playoffs your ability to add talent in the teens, etc. is essential to being a champion. Detroit - Tayshaun Prince, Jason Maxiel, Rodney Stuckey, Amir Johnson San Antonio - Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili Los Angelas - Andrew Bynum, Javaris Crittenon (plus role players like Farmer & Walton) Dallas - Josh Howard, Brandon Bass etc. Drafting ability doesn't stop being important when you start winning - in fact it is essential if you want to keep winning, IMO. It just becomes more challenging. Look at what the Suns would be like if they had just kept their picks and taken Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo, etc. instead of selling them off and signing guys like Quentin Richardson and Marcus Banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwell Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: dont know too much about this guy but from his resume i can tell he will always be active and willing to make moves..I hope he keeps Woody for at least the start of the season because he deserves it please,Woody deserves to be coaching a high school team and they'll still be horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwell Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Brandon Bass started with the Hornets not Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronnt Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Missing on Al Jefferson is tough, but I still can't really blame him for Robert Swift. It's not HIS fault that the guy has played only 71 games through four seasons. He's been too hurt to do anything for a long time. Jefferson wasn't really any good until his third season, and Swift might be around that level-15/10-if he hadn't gotten hurt so many times. Ridnour was a pretty nice pick, but damn, David West was on the board. Things could have gone better that year, even though there wasn't much yet. And 2006 was a pretty weak class. After Memphis took Rudy Gay, there's no Marquee player left. Though these three point guards who went at the bottom of the first round who, looking back, are pretty good. Rondo, Lowry, Farmar-all three of them should probably have gone higher in that draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 28, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: Brandon Bass started with the Hornets not Dallas True. It doesn't change the basic point, though. Without drafting Josh Howard in the 20s, the Mavericks don't reach the heights they have gotten in recent years. Getting guys in the mid to late first round is very important for winning teams, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachx Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: ...as the Hawks with the ASG can expect. I agree with some that if Sund cannot select his own coach and is strapped to Woody, this makes little sense. BTW, 2001 (12th) = Vladamir Radmanovic just after Kedrick Brown and just before richard jefferson, troy murphy, steven hunter, and kirk haston = average 2002 no 1st rder 2003 (14th) = Luke Ridnour (14th) - just after Marcus Banks and just before Reece Gaines, troy bell, zarko cabarkapa = good. 2004 (12th) = Robert Swift (ACL tear) - just after Luke Jackson and Andris Biedrins and just before Telfair, Humphries, Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder, Josh Smith = average to poor with incomplete due to injury 2005 (25th) Johan Petro = good 2006 (10th) Saer Sene just after Patrick O'Bryant and just before JJ Redick, Hilton Armstrong, and Sefolosha = incomplete/average in a horrible draft. 2007 Durant = Very Good I don't see a particularly good or bad drafting record, but I see no instance where he picked the worst of considered players or picked for the weakest of positions/against need. Thankfully, we are no longer at the point of rebuilding dependent upon drafting and Sund's deal for Allen was very good. Lastly, we couldn't do much better considering our ownership situation. Hopefully we'll get in on talks with Avery ASAP or at the very least get on without woody. W Good to hear from you W. I agree on those draft sentiments as well. The Avery for HC thing will never happen (though I wish it would). Avery will continue to earn money off his Mavericks contract until he resigns with another team. No way the Hawks pay him more then the Mavericks 5 year $20 mill contract where he is still due $12 million though 2011. The Hawks seem to not want to pay more them $600,000 to $800,000 annually for their head coach. So if your Avery, why make $2.4 million from now to 2011 coaching the Hawks when the Mavericks will give you $12 mill to just stay at home though 2011 ? He would be losing almost $10 million. Avery will sit at home and collect pay checks for not coaching until 2011 unless some team offers him more then $4 million annually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WraithSentinel Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 At least he has experience. We are not hiring a video guy as GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 28, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: ...as the Hawks with the ASG can expect. I agree with some that if Sund cannot select his own coach and is strapped to Woody, this makes little sense. BTW, 2001 (12th) = Vladamir Radmanovic just after Kedrick Brown and just before richard jefferson, troy murphy, steven hunter, and kirk haston = average 2002 no 1st rder 2003 (14th) = Luke Ridnour (14th) - just after Marcus Banks and just before Reece Gaines, troy bell, zarko cabarkapa = good. 2004 (12th) = Robert Swift (ACL tear) - just after Luke Jackson and Andris Biedrins and just before Telfair, Humphries, Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder, Josh Smith = average to poor with incomplete due to injury 2005 (25th) Johan Petro = good 2006 (10th) Saer Sene just after Patrick O'Bryant and just before JJ Redick, Hilton Armstrong, and Sefolosha = incomplete/average in a horrible draft. 2007 Durant = Very Good I don't see a particularly good or bad drafting record, but I see no instance where he picked the worst of considered players or picked for the weakest of positions/against need. Thankfully, we are no longer at the point of rebuilding dependent upon drafting and Sund's deal for Allen was very good. Lastly, we couldn't do much better considering our ownership situation. Hopefully we'll get in on talks with Avery ASAP or at the very least get on without woody. W I am a little confused by how you are evaluating these picks. If Petro is good, that seems to indicate that you are going on draft rationale (high potential player and not much else available) rather than actual performance (negligible). If it is based on actual performance, I don't see how the pick rates as "good." If you are going on who was available and what was worth gambling on, I can understand the evaluation. But if Petro is good, how is Kevin Durant anything but average as a draft pick? He was the no-brainer #2 pick. If you are grading on a curve based on who was available, I don't see how that was anything but average since every GM in the league would have taken him at #2. Giving high marks for that would be like giving a GM high marks for taking Tim Duncan at #1. I can't figure out if you are measuring this based on the productivity of the players actually drafted or grading on a curve based on who was available and how obvious the choice was. It looks like you are grading on a curve, but I don't fully understand the "very good" rating for Durant if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I know that it was Walter that said that it was Sund but I wanted to clear that up before that goes any farther. Whether it was intentional by Walter to throw that in there to make Sunds draft record look better or not, the fact is that if you don't have Durant in that group it's an average at best draft record. Josh Smith is better than anyone Sund has ever drafted by a wide margin and it's arguable that Diaw is as good as anyone Sund drafted and in both instances those players were taken by BK shortly after a Sund pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted May 28, 2008 Premium Member Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: Missing on Al Jefferson is tough, but I still can't really blame him for Robert Swift. It's not HIS fault that the guy has played only 71 games through four seasons. He's been too hurt to do anything for a long time. Jefferson wasn't really any good until his third season, and Swift might be around that level-15/10-if he hadn't gotten hurt so many times. Ridnour was a pretty nice pick, but damn, David West was on the board. Things could have gone better that year, even though there wasn't much yet. And 2006 was a pretty weak class. After Memphis took Rudy Gay, there's no Marquee player left. Though these three point guards who went at the bottom of the first round who, looking back, are pretty good. Rondo, Lowry, Farmar-all three of them should probably have gone higher in that draft. I agree on Jefferson. Jefferson had monster numbers coming out of HS, but in all actuallity, he was fat. IN fact, Jefferson's first two seasons didn't go so well. Swift was definitely a shot in the dark, but Swift had a whole lot of potential. "Strengths: Has the hands and footwork of a NBA vet ... Blocks shots better than any HS player in the country ... Human eraser. Tremendous wing span, and timing on blocks ... Good athleticism and gets off the ground quick ... Aggressive ... Attacks the rim, and tries to dunk everything... Excellent passer out of the post ... True team player... Good at positioning himself for rebounds... Weaknesses: Although he has bulked up considerably in the past year, he still needs to add size to his frame ... Is still pushed around at times by bigger and stronger players ... Poor free-throw shooter... Needs to work on conditioning ... Played well in the beginning of the summer but looked sluggish towards the end during the Adidas Big Time ... Notes: Was declared ineligible for the 2003-04 season, so it might force him to head to USC instead of attempting a HS-to-pros-jump. " At the time they took Swift, they had a good team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: Quote: ...as the Hawks with the ASG can expect. I agree with some that if Sund cannot select his own coach and is strapped to Woody, this makes little sense. BTW, 2001 (12th) = Vladamir Radmanovic just after Kedrick Brown and just before richard jefferson, troy murphy, steven hunter, and kirk haston = average 2002 no 1st rder 2003 (14th) = Luke Ridnour (14th) - just after Marcus Banks and just before Reece Gaines, troy bell, zarko cabarkapa = good. 2004 (12th) = Robert Swift (ACL tear) - just after Luke Jackson and Andris Biedrins and just before Telfair, Humphries, Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder, Josh Smith = average to poor with incomplete due to injury 2005 (25th) Johan Petro = good 2006 (10th) Saer Sene just after Patrick O'Bryant and just before JJ Redick, Hilton Armstrong, and Sefolosha = incomplete/average in a horrible draft. 2007 Durant = Very Good I don't see a particularly good or bad drafting record, but I see no instance where he picked the worst of considered players or picked for the weakest of positions/against need. Thankfully, we are no longer at the point of rebuilding dependent upon drafting and Sund's deal for Allen was very good. Lastly, we couldn't do much better considering our ownership situation. Hopefully we'll get in on talks with Avery ASAP or at the very least get on without woody. W I am a little confused by how you are evaluating these picks. If Petro is good, that seems to indicate that you are going on draft rationale (high potential player and not much else available) rather than actual performance (negligible). No. It means that not much should be expected from a 25th overall selection and that Petro has already met that while also being a big. Quote: If it is based on actual performance, I don't see how the pick rates as "good." If you are going on who was available and what was worth gambling on, I can understand the evaluation. Yes, I am going on who was available, draft position, value of position, production, potential...all things. Quote: But if Petro is good, how is Kevin Durant anything but average as a draft pick? He was the no-brainer #2 pick There wasn't much of a choice to be made in selecting Durant, I will give you that. But the fact is that someone did make that choice. It appears it was not Sund as I believed, but that pick remains at least a good one. The term "consensus" gets alot of people in trouble (eh, hem BK and MW for example). ... I don't see Sund's draft record as good or bad. Certainly he never passed on 2 consecutive ROY and all-stars or draft the worst of 3 considered prospects, 3 years consecutively. I see BK's draft record as awful. I see Sund's contract record similar to but better than BK's - still marginal. Signing Booth to his deal wasn't as bad as Lo and Speedy to theirs. Trade-wise I like the Ray Allen and JJ deals about equally. Coaching hires, nobody in NBA history has a worse coaching hire record than BK. I don't think it's much of an upgrade, but with the right coach, something I'm not sure Sund has the power to exercise and something BK has never acheived in his career, it may be OK. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dig Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Well, Sund didn't pick Durant.... he was "re-assigned" and Presti was hired as GM to make the selection (again, a no-brainer). All in all, Sund has a pretty mediocre draft record, but the ownership situation there has been a mess (even Schultz gave little support before Bennett arrived, although Howard is trying to make amends right now).... Sund had very little money to work with. That doesn't excuse his draft results, but Swift's injury really tarnished Sund's reputation (although only high-risk high schoolers like Jefferson and J. Smith have really made an impact after #12), and Sene was taken as a LT project in a very weak draft.... Petro was a good pick @#25..... Ridnour looks average now but was once considered a decent prospect, and Collison @ #12 is actually pretty solid as a 10/10 guy who'll have a long career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 28, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Quote: I don't see Sund's draft record as good or bad. Certainly he never passed on 2 consecutive ROY and all-stars or draft the worst of 3 considered prospects, 3 years consecutively. I see BK's draft record as awful. I see Sund's contract record similar to but better than BK's - still marginal. Signing Booth to his deal wasn't as bad as Lo and Speedy to theirs. Trade-wise I like the Ray Allen and JJ deals about equally. Coaching hires, nobody in NBA history has a worse coaching hire record than BK. I don't think it's much of an upgrade, but with the right coach, something I'm not sure Sund has the power to exercise and something BK has never acheived in his career, it may be OK. W BK definitely had the higher picks and the ability to pass on better talent but even if you take the lottery picks out of the equation for the Hawks, as someone else posted, it is also hard to argue that Sund did as much with the: #10 #10 #12 #12 #14 picks as BK did with the: #17 #23 selections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone034life Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Man i'm kind of glad this guy doesn't have a draft pick this season. I will give him a chance to prove himself though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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