Dream Team vs. Redeem Team

[Traceman]

I agree with this, it's one of the reasons I just don't like watching LeBron at all. He's just not a skilled player. His best skill is passing. He can't shoot, and really doesn't have any moves, he's just so much bigger and athletic than everyone. His best moves are basically just backing up while dribbling the ball and hoping the defender follows him so he just just run by them towards the basket where he's a GREAT finisher. That's it. When he gets older and loses his athletic ability, there is no way he plays SF IMO, he's just not skilled enough. He'll have to be a PF. Now, that athleticism gives him the ability to be a great player in the current NBA especially because of the hand check rules etc, but he'd be no match for the Dream team.

Kobe would be our best chance against the Dream Team IMO, as he's skilled enough to score on anyone. Redeem not being able to shoot would kill us.

Put the pipe down! LeBron not skilled? Are you serious? He is one of the most skilled players in the NBA. LeBron handles and passes the ball like a PG. He may not be a pure shooter but he is a GREAT scorer. He is an excellent rebounder. The dude averaged 28/8/8 last year.

If Smoove had LeBron's skills, he'd be a first team All NBA player. Smoove is bigger and more athletic than everyone too but the difference between him and LeBron is that LeBron is FAR more skilled as a player. From an athleticism standpoint, there is not much difference between the two.

As for LeBron being no match for the Dream Team, I disagree. LeBron at SF is the one place that the Redeem Team might actually be able to hang with the Dream Team. Larry Bird couldn't even dream of guarding LeBron (although LeBron would have a hell of a time guarding him as well). As for Pippen, he was a great defender but he NEVER had to guard anyone with the size, strength, athleticism and skills of LeBron.

[Swish]

Put the pipe down! LeBron not skilled? Are you serious? He is one of the most skilled players in the NBA. LeBron handles and passes the ball like a PG. He may not be a pure shooter but he is a GREAT scorer. He is an excellent rebounder. The dude averaged 28/8/8 last year.

If Smoove had LeBron's skills, he'd be a first team All NBA player. Smoove is bigger and more athletic than everyone too but the difference between him and LeBron is that LeBron is FAR more skilled as a player. From an athleticism standpoint, there is not much difference between the two.

As for LeBron being no match for the Dream Team, I disagree. LeBron at SF is the one place that the Redeem Team might actually be able to hang with the Dream Team. Larry Bird couldn't even dream of guarding LeBron (although LeBron would have a hell of a time guarding him as well). As for Pippen, he was a great defender but he NEVER had to guard anyone with the size, strength, athleticism and skills of LeBron.

Thank you! Someone besides me finally steps up to this particular plate.

[crimedog]

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Barkley, Pippen, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Laettner, Robinson, and Chris Mullin

Swish, I don't think you could be more wrong about which team is better in transition.

Magic had been retired for a year but the season before he retired he was still the best pg in the game and had 12.5 assists. You got him pushing it with Stock and great transition playersl ike Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Robinson, and Drexler to finish as well as shooters to trail in Bird and Mullin.

Dream team is far better on D with two guys who had blocked 4 a game at points in their career plus Malone clogging up the inside and Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler on the wings.

As far as Kobe being a great defender... Kobe didn't shut down Manu. Manu's ankle shut down Manu. Sasha V was on Manu more than Kobe was. Kobe also didn't shut down Melo, and for the most part didn't guard him. Melo plays down low where Kobe's off the ball D and his love of gambling for steals would go to waste.

The big difference maker for the redeem team would be Lebron. I'm not sure where the hate is coming from, you don't have to like him but he gets the job done. He's a tough cover for the dream team because he's so much stronger than their wing players, unfortunately he is more than balanced out by the matchup problems that the dream team could create.

Again, if Paul is giving you trouble, put magic in the game and switch to zone. Force Kidd to come in, Kidd doesn't even try to score and can't shoot so you are hoping that Kobe and Wade have their shots falling if you want to be competitve at all. Both those guys are streaky with Kobe having shot horribly in the olympics.

[Swish]

Swish, I don't think you could be more wrong about which team is better in transition.

Here's where we disagree, obviously. You're one of my favorite posters but you are so dead wrong here its comical. Its like this. LeBron James is perhaps the fastest player down the floor in NBA history. Dwyane Wade is not far behind him. Chris Paul is the best fast break PG in the NBA right now. Physically, players have developed more since '92. You really can't be honest with yourself and say that the DT is faster than the Redeem Team. There's no way. I can't find transition stats for these teams, but I'd be willing to bet the RT had more against stiffer competition. I'm not even counting Kobe, CB4 and Dwight and Melo (actually a poor fast breaker)---CP3, LBJ, and Flash are terrifying on the break together.

Dude, if you watched, sure, it seemed like Kobe chucked it shamelessly, but seriously, he shot 46 % and 33% from 3. Thats a better clip than his LAL games. Not horribly shooting if you ask me.

As far as guarding Magic, I think Tay Prince takes a prominent role here. No PG with the RT can guard Magic and we know it. He IMO is the biggest mismatch in the whole game.

[crimedog]

Here's where we disagree, obviously. You're one of my favorite posters but you are so dead wrong here its comical. Its like this. LeBron James is perhaps the fastest player down the floor in NBA history. Dwyane Wade is not far behind him. Chris Paul is the best fast break PG in the NBA right now. Physically, players have developed more since '92. You really can't be honest with yourself and say that the DT is faster than the Redeem Team. There's no way. I can't find transition stats for these teams, but I'd be willing to bet the RT had more against stiffer competition. I'm not even counting Kobe, CB4 and Dwight and Melo (actually a poor fast breaker)---CP3, LBJ, and Flash are terrifying on the break together.

Dude, if you watched, sure, it seemed like Kobe chucked it shamelessly, but seriously, he shot 46 % and 33% from 3. Thats a better clip than his LAL games. Not horribly shooting if you ask me.

As far as guarding Magic, I think Tay Prince takes a prominent role here. No PG with the RT can guard Magic and we know it. He IMO is the biggest mismatch in the whole game.

CP3 plays mainly in the halfcourt, Nash is still the best fast break pg.

Regardless, those guys were used to a faster era of ball, the 80s. They all cut their teeth in fast break systems. You can look it up on basketball-reference, those offenses had a lot more possessions per game because they pushed it.

Lebron is a freak of an athlete. No doubt. I just don't think humans have evolved since 92, you know? We aren't talking about your average run of the mill person or college players. For the most part NBA players have maintained a fairly steady level of athleticism which is why guys like Wilt, doc J, Hondo, or Baylor would be among the most athletic players in any era including this one.

The thing about the dream teamers is that you didn't even have to have watched them to know they were better open court athletes, you can check them on youtube because they played in the ESPN era. Drexler was a more explosive athlete than anyone today, he had a vertical well into the 40s. Barkley is one of the most dangerous transition players of all time, often ripping down a rebound and running upcourt of a thunderous dunk... he is underated as a freak of nature. Dwight Howard is an athlete but Robinson was just as impressive. Thats leaving out Jordan and Pippen. No, I really don't think this team is nearly as athletic as the dream team.

[Swish]

Well, I respect that, and there is nothing I can do to prove it differently really other than opinion!

[AtLaS]

Put the pipe down! LeBron not skilled? Are you serious? He is one of the most skilled players in the NBA. LeBron handles and passes the ball like a PG. He may not be a pure shooter but he is a GREAT scorer. He is an excellent rebounder. The dude averaged 28/8/8 last year.

LeBron is not a great scorer, his TS% sucks for someone at the top of the NBA in scoring. Sure, he has a good FG% which means nothing considering how many threes and FT he takes. His TS% is VERY low for being a top scorer. I'll leave big men out of this since they obviously shoot higher percentage shots. Players like Chris Paul, Kobe, Manu, Kevin Martin, Pierce, Gilbert Arenas are ALL better than LeBron. JJ is normally up there but he had a terrible shooting year last year. Carmelo and Iverson are dead even as a scorer with LeBron. If LeBron didn't take so many threes and could actually make FTs he'd be a much better scorer.

If Smoove had LeBron's skills, he'd be a first team All NBA player. Smoove is bigger and more athletic than everyone too but the difference between him and LeBron is that LeBron is FAR more skilled as a player.

LeBron is MUCH stronger and weighs at least 30 more pounds. And, are you saying Smith is a skilled player? That's not saying much at all that LeBron is more skilled than him. But Smith plays PF so he doesn't have to do all the dribbling and moves that LeBron does, although he sometimes does.

Sure LeBron is 6'8 260 and can dribble through his legs and not get the ball stolen, but his basic premise is backing up and hoping the defense follows him out so he can just run by them. He is a GREAT finisher even without dunks and that's why he's so good. He's also a great passer which I give him credit for. But, he has no midrange or long range game to speak of, yet he insists on thinking he does. Just watch other top scorers like Kobe, Pierce, Arenas, Joe Johnson, etc and his lack of skills compared to them are blatently obvious.

Regardless, LeBron is still easily a top 3 player, I'm not arguing that at all. It's just boring to watch with his lack of skills IMO.

As for LeBron being no match for the Dream Team, I disagree. LeBron at SF is the one place that the Redeem Team might actually be able to hang with the Dream Team. Larry Bird couldn't even dream of guarding LeBron (although LeBron would have a hell of a time guarding him as well). As for Pippen, he was a great defender but he NEVER had to guard anyone with the size, strength, athleticism and skills of LeBron.

Well, I do somewhat agree. I just meant that LeBron wouldn't be nearly as dominant as he was in this tourney. The hand check would help the DT so much against someone like LeBron, but LeBron is good enough that he would still produce decently IMO.

[crimedog]

"LeBron is not a great scorer, his TS% sucks for someone at the top of the NBA in scoring. Sure, he has a good FG% which means nothing considering how many threes and FT he takes. His TS% is VERY low for being a top scorer. I'll leave big men out of this since they obviously shoot higher percentage shots. Players like Chris Paul, Kobe, Manu, Kevin Martin, Pierce, Gilbert Arenas are ALL better than LeBron. JJ is normally up there but he had a terrible shooting year last year. Carmelo and Iverson are dead even as a scorer with LeBron. If LeBron didn't take so many threes and could actually make FTs he'd be a much better scorer."

Atlas, regarding LJ's TS%, it was higher than Joe Johnson's has ever been. It was .008 lower than Kobe's. It was the exact same as Melo's.

Those other guys (including Joe) score at a significantly lower volume to the point where comparing TS% is basically useless.

Like Kobe, Lebron is an efficient scorer for a wing who gets 30+.

A guy who is innefficient would be MVP era AI.

Edited August 29, 2008 by crimedog

[HawkItus]

I say the Redeem team if we play by NBA rules. You have to realize that NBA rules Howard would have Ewing and Robinson gone by the 3rd and then its just a dunk fest. MHO.

[AtLaS]

"LeBron is not a great scorer, his TS% sucks for someone at the top of the NBA in scoring. Sure, he has a good FG% which means nothing considering how many threes and FT he takes. His TS% is VERY low for being a top scorer. I'll leave big men out of this since they obviously shoot higher percentage shots. Players like Chris Paul, Kobe, Manu, Kevin Martin, Pierce, Gilbert Arenas are ALL better than LeBron. JJ is normally up there but he had a terrible shooting year last year. Carmelo and Iverson are dead even as a scorer with LeBron. If LeBron didn't take so many threes and could actually make FTs he'd be a much better scorer."

Atlas, regarding LJ's TS%, it was higher than Joe Johnson's has ever been. It was .008 lower than Kobe's. It was the exact same as Melo's.

Those guys are all the key scorers for their team so they see similar defensive attention. And, even if you compare scorers who average 25+ ppg, LeBron is not as good as he's made out to be. Paul Pierce has put up 6 seasons of better scoring than LeBron, a few of them when he scored 25+. Carmelo is the equal to LeBron, at least in this past season. Gilbert has put up a better year. Regardless, that's not even the point of my post because I agree that LeBron is a top 3 player. I just don't think he's a player with a great skillset, which has been my point the entire time.

[crimedog]

Those guys are all the key scorers for their team so they see similar defensive attention. And, even if you compare scorers who average 25+ ppg, LeBron is not as good as he's made out to be. Paul Pierce has put up 6 seasons of better scoring than LeBron, a few of them when he scored 25+. Carmelo is the equal to LeBron, at least in this past season. Gilbert has put up a better year. Regardless, that's not even the point of my post because I agree that LeBron is a top 3 player. I just don't think he's a player with a great skillset, which has been my point the entire time.

I agree, as far as scoring he's similar to a younger MJ where he just attacks the rim. He'll have to develop a midrange game or post game eventually. As of now he is a stunning athlete with near historic finishing ability and great handles for a guy his size (and, as you mentioned, rare court vision).

That being said, the more points you can score at a rate significantly above the league average the better and the fact that Bron is scoring a good chunk more than Pierce' career high at a rate very close to Pierce is very impressive, especially considering that he doesn't have the arsenal.

Personally I think he is the best player in the game in terms of effectiveness (in terms of scoring efficiency he is very near Kobe and better at everything else at this point, including D), I'd still probably rather have TD though. What holds Bron back though is his team, it'll be hard to progress regardless of his skillset without a great teamate or two. Mo Williams will help but...

[AHF]

I say the Redeem team if we play by NBA rules. You have to realize that NBA rules Howard would have Ewing and Robinson gone by the 3rd and then its just a dunk fest. MHO.

Is this post a joke? Howard (at this stage in his career) would have David Robinson and Patrick Ewing fouled ot by the 3rd quarter?

I love Howard but he would get abused by those guys based on where they were in their careers and where he is.

[Diesel]

As for Pippen, he was a great defender but he NEVER had to guard anyone with the size, strength, athleticism and skills of LeBron.

You must have forgotten about Big Harold?

Just kdn.

But

Pippen played against Paul. Pip played against Charles Barkley. Pip played against James Worthy.

The other interesting thing is that without Jordan, Pippen as Lead, the Bulls won 55 games. More than Bron did with Cavs.

[TroyMcClure]

CP3 plays mainly in the halfcourt, Nash is still the best fast break pg.

Regardless, those guys were used to a faster era of ball, the 80s. They all cut their teeth in fast break systems. You can look it up on basketball-reference, those offenses had a lot more possessions per game because they pushed it.

Lebron is a freak of an athlete. No doubt. I just don't think humans have evolved since 92, you know? We aren't talking about your average run of the mill person or college players. For the most part NBA players have maintained a fairly steady level of athleticism which is why guys like Wilt, doc J, Hondo, or Baylor would be among the most athletic players in any era including this one.

The thing about the dream teamers is that you didn't even have to have watched them to know they were better open court athletes, you can check them on youtube because they played in the ESPN era. Drexler was a more explosive athlete than anyone today, he had a vertical well into the 40s. Barkley is one of the most dangerous transition players of all time, often ripping down a rebound and running upcourt of a thunderous dunk... he is underated as a freak of nature. Dwight Howard is an athlete but Robinson was just as impressive. Thats leaving out Jordan and Pippen. No, I really don't think this team is nearly as athletic as the dream team.

Well said about being better open court athletes. The 80's game was a lot more fun to watch and play. Guys were true team players then. Many breaks had no dribbles. Guys seemed to have more collective rhythm then. Now, everyone sort of listens to their own beat.

The Dream Team was a lot smarter. That's pretty much the difference maker.