Dream Team vs. Redeem Team

[Swish]

Well, if you remember, I said its not apples/apples on steals because of the ages. So, Chris Paul is has two of three seasons over 2spg. Who's to say for the rest of his career he won't average 2.7+? Its impossible to predict right now.

I grant you, Stockton was a bit before I started watching. My Dad was huge on the NBA and says that CP3 looks like the next coming of JS; so that and current stats are what I am going on.

Lets just base it on stats for a moment. John Stockton over his career averaged 13 ppg, 10 apg, 3 rpg, and 2spg. (and almost 3 TO.)

Thats via NBA.com

Paul averaging 18ppg, 5rpg, 2spg, and 10apg. He's ahead of Stockton in two categories and who's to say it won't get even better?

I rounded all those up from .5 and down from .4.

Now, I know, you will say stats don't tell the whole story. I concur. However, statistically, it is a dead heat and for the future I'm thinking Paul.

Stockton's records indeed may never be touched. I think though that out of everyone playing today CP has the best chance, do you agree?

[Plainview1981]

This "redeem team" couldn't stop Luis Scola. And they're going to compete with the Dream Team? LMAO!

How do you allow Luis Scola to get 28 points and 11 rebounds? Kobe a shooter? More like a chunker. He has never shot over 46% in his career I don't believe.

I find it funny that everybody is trying to break it down to one on one match ups anyway. The NBA players now are complete idiots. Poor fundamentals and the players can't shoot. Against Pippen, LJ would be jacking up alot of low percentage shots (for him) and missing. Like he often does.

Not only do NBA players now lack fundametals, but they're complete p******.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Hotlanta1981

[Swish]

Yeah, I agree with that. Scola's explosion was a bit inexplicable and inexcusable with Bosh and Howard-they left Anthony on him for crying out loud! At least let Booze have a shot. Smoove would've slaughtered him defensively. ;)

You're correct, Kobe has never shot over 50, but a career 45 % clip certainly isn't shameful. The thing is, I don't really mind him chunking for Team USA when he nails a couple of 33 footers- you gotta keep 'em honest. When he chucks it on the Lakers its pathetic though.

[Plainview1981]

Yeah, I agree with that. Scola's explosion was a bit inexplicable and inexcusable with Bosh and Howard-they left Anthony on him for crying out loud! At least let Booze have a shot. Smoove would've slaughtered him defensively. ;)

You're correct, Kobe has never shot over 50, but a career 45 % clip certainly isn't shameful. The thing is, I don't really mind him chunking for Team USA when he nails a couple of 33 footers- you gotta keep 'em honest. When he chucks it on the Lakers its pathetic though.

LJ is a better version of Grant Hill. He's not the player that people make him out to be though.

[Swish]

LJ? You mean LeBron James? You've gotta be kidding if thats who you're talking about.

[Plainview1981]

LJ? You mean LeBron James? You've gotta be kidding if thats who you're talking about.

That's all he is.

Dude can't shoot. If these guys were they great, they won't have been coming away with bronze the last several years anyway. Have you ever seen a guy shoot so many airballs? Dude shoots 31% in 3's and 71% at the FT line. His weaknesses are sort of like Grant's... Grant was never an outstanding shooter either. LJ does what GH did... But better. That is all. The NBA has become a star stat padding league. That's why it's been tough for these teams... They've become some used to having the ball in their hands all the time and collecting the stats that playing as a team is tough for them.

The talent around the league is spread out, so it allows the star players to collect outstanding stats. I'll use an example... Notice how KG's stats fell off now that he is on a more talented Boston team? He was a 23/14/5 player on the Minny team... On a more talented team, he put up 18/9/3 this year. Same thing has happened to Tim Duncan. As Parker and Mano got better... His numbers dont look near as impressive. Not saying these players aren't good players, but star players stats on one horse teams tends to cloud some peoples mind.

To put it more simple..... Sometimes fans get abit lost in star players stats. While I agree that LBJ is better than Hill was.... It's not like two or three times better. Don't forget that Grant was an outstanding rebounder and a good passer too. You take away scoring, and there isn't a very big difference. LBJ being a more athletic scorer is the only big difference.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Hotlanta1981

[frosgrim]

The RT does not have anything close to the mental toughness of the Dream Team. That alone would mean that the DT wins hands down over the RT.

There are no tougher, more driven competitors than Jordan, Bird and Magic.

Give me a break in thinking that Kobe could guard Jordan in his prime. Jordan's drive to win would break Kobe by the half. Put on top of that Bird hitting jumper after jumper over James and Anthony. Then there's Magic. Paul would be in a world of hurt trying to deal with him.

Now lets look at the middle. You think Paul would get an uncontested layup with Malone in there? I agree with D that Jordan and Bird were "dirty" players, but Malone was a brute. Paul would be on his a$$ everytime he went in the lane.

As for the RTs bigs. Howard is too young to be able to handle what Ewing and Robinson would throw at him.

In all, I just see this game as a blow out. That DT was the best basketball team ever put together. The RT is very good, and by far the best Olympic basketball team since 96, but they just don't have the moxie and ability of that 92 team.

[Swish]

The RT does not have anything close to the mental toughness of the Dream Team. That alone would mean that the DT wins hands down over the RT.

There are no tougher, more driven competitors than Jordan, Bird and Magic.

Give me a break in thinking that Kobe could guard Jordan in his prime. Jordan's drive to win would break Kobe by the half. Put on top of that Bird hitting jumper after jumper over James and Anthony. Then there's Magic. Paul would be in a world of hurt trying to deal with him.

Now lets look at the middle. You think Paul would get an uncontested layup with Malone in there? I agree with D that Jordan and Bird were "dirty" players, but Malone was a brute. Paul would be on his a$$ everytime he went in the lane.

As for the RTs bigs. Howard is too young to be able to handle what Ewing and Robinson would throw at him.

In all, I just see this game as a blow out. That DT was the best basketball team ever put together. The RT is very good, and by far the best Olympic basketball team since 96, but they just don't have the moxie and ability of that 92 team.

Well, I think that the Kobe/MJ defensive matchup would be better than you are giving credit, but there's not much for me to base that on besides opinion.

I don't think I said Paul would guard Magic. Good grief. Magic is built like PF. Paul would indeed be on his ass every time. I'd keep someone like Prince on Magic. Not even, but closer.

Howard could hold his own on those two. I actually think Bosh would fare even better though. The only problem I have with CB4 (he is one of my favorite players) is his weight. Dude is a rail.

If Coach K would give some PT, Booze would be perfect to guard the Mailman.

The problem with this argument I am giving though is I really only have vague stats (as in the Paul/Stockton comp) and personal opinion.

[frosgrim]

How does the RT guard this lineup?

PG Magic

SG Jordan

SF Pippen

PF Malone

C Robinson

RT

PG Paul

SG Kobe

SF LBJ

PF Bosh

C Howard

Sorry that is a complete mis-match. The only RT advantage is LBJ and that's very slight over Pippen. Magic destroys Paul. Jordan destroys Kobe. Remember Jordan is arguably the greatest defensive player ever. He would shut Kobe down or force him to be a passer. Bosh vs. Malone, um this isn't even close. Malone was excellent at defending the things Bosh likes to do, while Bosh is bad at defending that high PnR. Even worse for the RT, is Howard vs. Robinson. Howard is still raw. He's very athletic and strong, but raw. Robinson was a 4 year guy in college and then got great coaching in the Pros. He knows how to defeat anything that Howard would try to do. The chair pull move would put Howard on his butt more than once.

Its just hard to put anyone up against the golden age of NBA ball. Again the current RT is a very good team and I like watching them, but they just couldn't beat that 92 team.

[Swish]

OK, I like your points. I'll try once more to let you see where I'm coming from.

I don't play Paul against Magic. You'd have to be drunk to think that was favorable. I start Prince and he plays Magic. Kobe or LeBron runs the point.

Remember Kobe is one of the better offensive players ever. I don't think even MJ could defend his pivot/fall back and pop shot when its hot. That shot is SICK. It would be more even than you think.

As far as Bosh goes...I have him in the game when Ewing is in-I think Booze against Malone works best.

You are right that Robinson's array of moves would confuse Dwight. Dwight has basically one move-power to and slam it home. I think though his insane strength would close the gap slightly.

Anyways, not to beat the dead horse, but I'm not disagreeing that the DT would win. I just think it would be VERY close. Anyone read that whatifsports.com story on it? Enlightening stuff.

[DJlaysitup]

My play-by-play:

"We're in the second quarter and Bird has already hit two threes from the corner...Malone really seems to be man-handling Howard with the international rules in his favor...you can really push a guy around before they call a foul...Howard is basically a wing player now..(time passes)...it's become the Michael Jordan show at this point...as we said before...if somebody didn't guard Bird he would score a hundred points from that corner....but now as the Redeem team has adjusted it has opened up the lane for Jordan...MJ seems unstoppable. James seams to be trying too much for the Redeem team and Scottie Pippen is frustrating him. There is no question that the Redeem team's goal was to shut down Hakeem Olajuwan early but that doesn't seem to be working since the Dream team has so many offensive weapons."

End stats for Dream team:

Jordan - 23 points

Bird - 9 points (all off threes)

Pippen - 8 points

Olajuwan - 22 points

Malone - 6 points

others as they did........

The Dream team totally dominated the game from the get-go....taking a lead and keeping it. Chriss Paul was a bright spot for the Redeemers...scoring 16 points and having 8 assists...still....the highlight real will always show the time CP went down the lane to lay the ball up and Olajuwan blocked it back off of his forehead. Bird picked up the loose ball and fired it ahead to MJ who made a thunderous dunk.

Dreamteam: 114

Redeem team: 94

[DJlaysitup]

My play-by-play:

"We're in the second quarter and Bird has already hit two threes from the corner...Malone really seems to be man-handling Howard with the international rules in his favor...you can really push a guy around before they call a foul...Howard is basically a wing player now..(time passes)...it's become the Michael Jordan show at this point...as we said before...if somebody didn't guard Bird he would score a hundred points from that corner....but now as the Redeem team has adjusted it has opened up the lane for Jordan...MJ seems unstoppable. James seems to be trying too much for the Redeem team and Scottie Pippen is frustrating him. There is no question that the Redeem team's goal was to shut down Hakeem Olajuwan early but that doesn't seem to be working since the Dream team has so many offensive weapons."

End stats for Dream team:

Jordan - 23 points

Bird - 9 points (all off threes)

Pippen - 8 points

Olajuwan - 22 points

Malone - 6 points

others as they did........

The Dream team totally dominated the game from the get-go....taking a lead and keeping it. Chris Paul was a bright spot for the Redeemers...scoring 16 points and having 8 assists...still....the highlight reel will always show the time CP went down the lane to lay the ball up and Olajuwan blocked it back off of his forehead. Bird picked up the loose ball and fired it ahead to MJ who made a thunderous dunk.

Dreamteam: 114

Redeem team: 94

Edited August 23, 2008 by DJlaysitup

[Swish]

Well since Olajuwan wasn't on that team knock off 22 pts so the RT wins!

[dlpin]

Redeem team is vastly overrated. It cruised in the first round when no one gave a damn because 8 of 12 teams advances. Against Argentina, they came out strong, but then were evenly matched for 3 quarters without Ginobli, and then in a game that was a lot closer than the scoreboard suggested beat a Calderon-less Spain. This all after the most intense preparation by an American team for the olympics.

The dream team beat croatia (which had 5 NBA players, including an all star and a future winner of the 6th man award) by 32 without even breaking a sweat.

The "redeem team" allowed Scola to score 26, and Pau and Marc Gasol to combine for 33, all in over 50% shooting.

If this team couldnt stop Pau and Marc Gasol, what would Malone, Ewing and Robinson do against them?

[Atlsportfanz]

How does the RT guard this lineup?

PG Magic

SG Jordan

SF Pippen

PF Malone

C Robinson

RT

PG Paul

SG Kobe

SF LBJ

PF Bosh

C Howard

Sorry that is a complete mis-match. The only RT advantage is LBJ and that's very slight over Pippen. Magic destroys Paul. Jordan destroys Kobe. Remember Jordan is arguably the greatest defensive player ever. He would shut Kobe down or force him to be a passer. Bosh vs. Malone, um this isn't even close. Malone was excellent at defending the things Bosh likes to do, while Bosh is bad at defending that high PnR. Even worse for the RT, is Howard vs. Robinson. Howard is still raw. He's very athletic and strong, but raw. Robinson was a 4 year guy in college and then got great coaching in the Pros. He knows how to defeat anything that Howard would try to do. The chair pull move would put Howard on his butt more than once.

Its just hard to put anyone up against the golden age of NBA ball. Again the current RT is a very good team and I like watching them, but they just couldn't beat that 92 team.

The only big difference in lineups that I would have would be Jason Kidd at the PG. He would give a one year away from the game Magic a lot of trouble. Quicker than Magic and certainly more focused on defense than Magic ever was. I would probably put LBJ on Malone even though Malone would dominate him and Anthony on Pippen. Pippen would abuse Anthony as well especially on defense. I would give a small edge to Howard over Pippen especially in the transition game. I don't think any C on the Dream Team roster could get up and down the floor with Howard.

The Dream Team would want to slow the game down and use their physical strength and play a half court game something the Redeem Team has struggled at (see anytime someone went to a zone defense). The Redeem Team would have to get out and run. It would be interesting to see.

[TroyMcClure]

Jordan, Pippen, Malone, and Stockton were all in their primes. Then there is Drexler and even Mullin. Moreover, remember, Magic didn't retire because of Age. He retired because of Aids. Magic with Aids (yeah right) strolling down the lane finding guys with no look passes from nowhere.

Also, everybody in the dream team era focused on defense about as much as offense. Dream Team would shut the non-defensive redeem team down. Then try to hang 120 on them.

I also heard Mike and Mike saying that they like Coach K better than Chuck Daly?? WHAT!!???!?!!

You're exactly right, D. Those guys played true team ball. I say Dream team in 6 if it were Finals type scenario.

Who says Paul would destroy Stockton? Sounds like a young guy. He left at the top of the pg game after playing almost 2 decades. He could defend anyone.

The Dream team could flat out shoot. And wtf is going to stop Drexler? A past his prime Bird is still the best shooter on the court and one of the best passers.

Some computer geek needs to make this happen for ESPN, like in the Balboa movie. It would be fun.

[Swish]

Troy,

They did make it happen. Go back in the thread and check out the whatifsports.com link I posted. Redeem team won in 7.

And, yes, I am younger than most of you, but that doesn't have much to do with anything besides me not being alive to watch some stuff you did ;).

Here's my theory on Stockton and Paul:

Well, if you remember, I said its not apples/apples on steals because of the ages. So, Chris Paul is has two of three seasons over 2spg. Who's to say for the rest of his career he won't average 2.7+? Its impossible to predict right now.

I grant you, Stockton was a bit before I started watching. My Dad was huge on the NBA and says that CP3 looks like the next coming of JS; so that and current stats are what I am going on.

Lets just base it on stats for a moment. John Stockton over his career averaged 13 ppg, 10 apg, 3 rpg, and 2spg. (and almost 3 TO.)

Thats via NBA.com

Paul averaging 18ppg, 5rpg, 2spg, and 10apg. He's ahead of Stockton in two categories and who's to say it won't get even better?

I rounded all those up from .5 and down from .4.

Now, I know, you will say stats don't tell the whole story. I concur. However, statistically, it is a dead heat and for the future I'm thinking Paul.

Stockton's records indeed may never be touched. I think though that out of everyone playing today CP has the best chance, do you agree?

[AtLaS]

You take away scoring, and there isn't a very big difference. LBJ being a more athletic scorer is the only big difference.

I agree with this, it's one of the reasons I just don't like watching LeBron at all. He's just not a skilled player. His best skill is passing. He can't shoot, and really doesn't have any moves, he's just so much bigger and athletic than everyone. His best moves are basically just backing up while dribbling the ball and hoping the defender follows him so he just just run by them towards the basket where he's a GREAT finisher. That's it. When he gets older and loses his athletic ability, there is no way he plays SF IMO, he's just not skilled enough. He'll have to be a PF. Now, that athleticism gives him the ability to be a great player in the current NBA especially because of the hand check rules etc, but he'd be no match for the Dream team.

Kobe would be our best chance against the Dream Team IMO, as he's skilled enough to score on anyone. Redeem not being able to shoot would kill us.

[EazyRoc]

LeBron is a very skilled player. He just doesn't have a lot of moves, and can't shoot. He's probably the best ball handler on his team, and could really play point. He's becoming a better rebounder, and is a great passer. To say he's not skilled would be taking it too far. I believe sooner or later, he'll be like a walking triple-double. He'll improve his jumpshot, although that will never be his strong point. If he ever decides to learn a few post moves, I'll feel bad for all the other SFs in the league.

[AHF]

Count me in for the Dream Team winning easily in this comparison. The Dream Team would be dominant in the post and then also have Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, etc. Just not competitive. Guys like Mullin, Bird, etc. would also stretch the floor much better than the current squad's perimeter shooters. I like this Redeem Team much better than some of the past but it would not be competitive, IMO.

I think the Paul/Stockton matchup would be competitive but Paul could be removed from the game by inserting Magic at PG whereas Stockton would have the advantage versus Kidd, Williams or Paul. To argue that Paul would be athletically dominant versus Stockton is misguided, IMO. Paul isn't someone that athletically blows away guys like Isiah Thomas or Allen Iverson in his prime and Stockton more than held his own against the best athletes the game had to offer during his long era of play. Stockton is going to get more and more underrated as you get more and more people who have only watched him in highlight packages, IMO.

Anyway, I would definitely enjoy watching Jordan just bury Kobe and feel that the SF position is the only one that would be competitive. Magic/Stockton would bury the Kidd/Paul/Williams combo at PG; Jordan/Drex would kill at SG; Barkley/Malone at PG; Ewing/Robinson at center and Pippen/Mullin/Bird would be very competitive at SF.