New Sekou blog on Marvin the Martian

[Swish]

One guy pointed to the Hawks’ performance against the Celtics in the playoffs as Exhibit A as to Marvin’s importance to the Hawks’ bottom line.

“He never actually had a breakout game during that series,” one of my insiders told me last week. “Every other guy in the [Hawks’] starting five had his moment in that series. I know [Marvin] led them in scoring in that Game 6 win but I felt like [Josh] Childress was really the game breaker that night off the bench with that big layup on the baseline, which was also the play that sent Paul Pierce out of that game with his sixth foul. And don’t forget that it was Johnson that hit the huge 3-pointer at the end for the final dagger. I was in the building that night and if ever there was a chance for the kid who was the No. 2 pick in the draft to step up on the big stage and lift his team up when they needed it that was the night. And it didn’t happen.”

If you go back and examine the Hawks’ playoff stats and it’s hard to argue that blunt assessment of Marvin’s performance in his first playoff appearance - he averaged a respectable 11.4 points and 4.0 rebounds on .414 shooting. But even Marvin admitted (at least to me) that he wasn’t nearly as aggressive as he should have been offensively and that he didn’t attack Pierce like he wanted to (which was no doubt influenced by the focus of the Hawks’ attack in the series).

Sekou Smith

[Diesel]

The bottom line is that Marvin is not an impact player.

Marvin can score 20 points and it would still be "quiet Points"... Meaning that his points do nothing to uplift his team. I know that some of you guys think that getting points is enough, but I beg to differ. Making plays and doing the right things at the right times are more important. After the 2nd qtr, Marvin disappears like the invisible girl.

[DrReality]

“I’m not suggesting that Marvin needs to try and be something he’s not right now,” another one of my insiders said during our conversation. “I’m only suggesting that he has to become more of a presence, more of a factor than he’s been in the past. He has to be a threat every night and not just every two or three games. That’s the big difference people talk about between a guy in his third year and his fourth year, it’s that realization that in order to be a legitimate threat you have to be more consistent and not necessarily more dynamic. I think Marvin’s got plenty of game, more than he shows most nights actually, but it’s more important for him to show it every night than it is for him to show off any new tricks.”

That last sentence by my insider was in direct response to my offering that Marvin’s been working on a new wrinkle (a 3-point shot) to his arsenal, something that I’ve long said will make him a much tougher matchup at his size (6-9, 245 after a summer spent working the weights).

That’s where my insider and I disagree on Marvin and players in general. I don’t have any doubts that a player with a significant offensive wrinkle causes problems he didn’t before. And Marvin’s never stretched the defense beyond the 3-point line in the NBA. He’s always been a mid-range catch and shoot threat, from anywhere on the floor within 18 feet.

You move him back beyond the 3-point line, say from one of the corners, and I believe he drastically changes the way teams can defend the Hawks in the half court. No one has scouted the Hawks with Marvin as a threat from that distance. No one has tape of the Hawks with Marvin as a threat from that distance. If only for the first round of games (by the time the Hawks start seeing teams for the second time this season they’ll have surely figured out a way to at least try and defend the Hawks that way) it becomes a huge benefit for the Hawks to take teams by surprise.

One of my insiders vehemently disagreed with me, insisting that if Marvin’s 3-point shooting is just some gimmick that only works on the nights when he’s hot from deep it’ll be a disaster.

“I think a guy with his size and ability would be better suited polishing up his dribble drive game,” he said. “He’s big enough and talented enough to draw fouls if he’s consistently trying to go to the basket. That’s where I think he has a chance to create the most problems for this team. I don’t see any wisdom in parking a guy that big that far away from the basket, especially on a team strapped for size inside. He’d be much more efficient playing in the post more as opposed to working on the perimeter, where Johnson needs space to operate the way he likes.”

If Marvin was more of a playmaker in the Hawks’ offense I might lean that way as well. But he’s been more of a catch and shoot guy than he has been a creator of facilitator.

Either way it’s a fascinating discussion/debate, and one that we’ll have constantly the next month as we break down the Hawks’ entire roster in this space leading up to training camp.

But I’m curious, what do you think Marvin’s role will be on this team this season and going forward?

[DrReality]

I'm just glad he's being called out. Time to put up or shut up.

Actually, I think he needs to work on the three pointer and his game to drive the basket. He tends to play like a little kid, time to grow up.

[Admin]

“I’m not suggesting that Marvin needs to try and be something he’s not right now,” another one of my insiders said during our conversation. “I’m only suggesting that he has to become more of a presence, more of a factor than he’s been in the past. He has to be a threat every night and not just every two or three games. That’s the big difference people talk about between a guy in his third year and his fourth year, it’s that realization that in order to be a legitimate threat you have to be more consistent and not necessarily more dynamic. I think Marvin’s got plenty of game, more than he shows most nights actually, but it’s more important for him to show it every night than it is for him to show off any new tricks.”

I definitely agree with this, that Marvin must become a more consistent threat. There's no doubt that when he is playing well we are a much better team but he has to be much more consistent and make teams pay for leaving him open.

I disagree with his insider about adding a new wrinkle, I think that is very important. He needs to work on his range and work on his low post moves, which he has shown to be quite excellent when he actually displays them. The turn around shot and the hook in the lane are both beautiful shots that I'd like to see a lot more of this year.

[Admin]

I'm just glad he's being called out. Time to put up or shut up.

Actually, I think he needs to work on the three pointer and his game to drive the basket. He tends to play like a little kid, time to grow up.

Yeah me too since Marvin has never been called out before. :kickcan:

[macdaddy]

“I think a guy with his size and ability would be better suited polishing up his dribble drive game,” he said. “He’s big enough and talented enough to draw fouls if he’s consistently trying to go to the basket. That’s where I think he has a chance to create the most problems for this team. I don’t see any wisdom in parking a guy that big that far away from the basket, especially on a team strapped for size inside. He’d be much more efficient playing in the post more as opposed to working on the perimeter, where Johnson needs space to operate the way he likes.”

This is the way i've always felt. Much like Smoove's post up game last year, Marvin won't be a major 3 point threat just because he shot a bunch of them one summer. Shooting them in a game is much different or every player would become a threat. Marvin's 3 point game is likely to look like Smoove's.

But if he can be a consistent performer from 18' in to the basket then he can become a go to guy. He's basically the same size as Karl Malone (i know Malone was strong as an ox), he should be working on that game plus being able to take people off the dribble.

[Admin]

This is the way i've always felt. Much like Smoove's post up game last year, Marvin won't be a major 3 point threat just because he shot a bunch of them one summer. Shooting them in a game is much different or every player would become a threat. Marvin's 3 point game is likely to look like Smoove's.

But if he can be a consistent performer from 18' in to the basket then he can become a go to guy. He's basically the same size as Karl Malone (i know Malone was strong as an ox), he should be working on that game plus being able to take people off the dribble.

I wouldn't bet on him being as bad as Josh Smith from 3. I think that last years 10% shooting from 3 changed his perception for a lot of people (including myself) who forgot that he was a 24-25% shooter his first two seasons and has near perfect form on his shot. If we assume that he is typically that 24% guy and assume that he has spent his summer working on that aspect of his game then I see no reason to think he can't get into the lower 30's, which would do wonders for our offense.

The big reason why I see him being effective shooting 3's as compared to Josh Smith is that you rarely see Marvin miss a jumper by much, while you will routinely see Josh Smith shoot an air ball or a total brick (when he misses that is). With Marvin it should just be a matter of getting him more comfortable at that range and repetition.

[PlayaPat420]

This is the way i've always felt. Much like Smoove's post up game last year, Marvin won't be a major 3 point threat just because he shot a bunch of them one summer. Shooting them in a game is much different or every player would become a threat. Marvin's 3 point game is likely to look like Smoove's.

But if he can be a consistent performer from 18' in to the basket then he can become a go to guy. He's basically the same size as Karl Malone (i know Malone was strong as an ox), he should be working on that game plus being able to take people off the dribble.

So he should change his entire way of playing because "fans" are unhappy with his production? And it's just that easy to be a Karl Malone like player huh? Arguably the best PF ever...? :no-no:

He should continuing working on what got him here: his jumpshot and versatility.

[pimp]

I think the biggest flaw in Marvin's game is his lack of creativity.

He pretty much does the same exact moves and the same exact directions every game.

Give the ball to Marvin on the wing , and we all know what his going to do.

{hold the ball,jab step, - shoot a jumper(if he has space) or drive towards the middle of the lane.

Any team with a halfway decent scouting report knows about this.

I think that's why he gets stripped , or falls down, or gets offensive fouls so often.

Not because he's just clumsy ,because players know what Marvin going to do before he makes his move.

I think it would help Marvin alot if he would mix things up abit more.

Drive towards the baseline more often, try a spin move , or pull up jumper , fade away

or aleast use his hook shot more often, since he is decent with it.

[Swish]

The bottom line is that Marvin is not an impact player.

Marvin can score 20 points and it would still be "quiet Points"... Meaning that his points do nothing to uplift his team. I know that some of you guys think that getting points is enough, but I beg to differ. Making plays and doing the right things at the right times are more important. After the 2nd qtr, Marvin disappears like the invisible girl.

MW is perhaps the most bashful player I have ever seen on an NBA court. Seriously, grow some. I would be ecstatic if he started driving into the lane and knocking guys over, if he is really 245ish. Thats HUGE.

Don't get me wrong--I don't particularly want the ball in Marvin's hands at the end of the game--but; I would love to see him develop a killer instinct. I just don't think its in him. Thats why comparing him to Paul and Williams just isn't relative besides their draft class. They are on two polar opposite levels. Marvin is a shy roleplayer at best, and really the fifth option on O. Paul is a superstar.

[Admin]

MW is perhaps the most bashful player I have ever seen on an NBA court. Seriously, grow some. I would be ecstatic if he started driving into the lane and knocking guys over, if he is really 245ish. Thats HUGE.

Don't get me wrong--I don't particularly want the ball in Marvin's hands at the end of the game--but; I would love to see him develop a killer instinct. I just don't think its in him. Thats why comparing him to Paul and Williams just isn't relative besides their draft class. They are on two polar opposite levels. Marvin is a shy roleplayer at best, and really the fifth option on O. Paul is a superstar.

I'm really not sure what some of you guys are watching when you talk about Marvin being timid or not driving into the lane with authority, etc. I can't tell you how many times I have seen him drive to the basket with plenty of authority and either make it or get fouled and then pound on his chest or do something to show a lot of emotion.

The ONLY area that I have seen Marvin be timid is in demanding the ball from his teammates.

[skyhawk]

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way as this is just adding another weapon to his game. Being a 3 point threat will open up his inside game more and spread the floor. No doubt he needs to be more aggressive but he can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. He's need to get stronger and finish better - which he will.

[frosgrim]

I'm really not sure what some of you guys are watching when you talk about Marvin being timid or not driving into the lane with authority, etc. I can't tell you how many times I have seen him drive to the basket with plenty of authority and either make it or get fouled and then pound on his chest or do something to show a lot of emotion.

The ONLY area that I have seen Marvin be timid is in demanding the ball from his teammates.

I agree, Marvin also needs to demand the ball, even when he's not shooting well. All the good scorers know you have to shoot your way out of a slump. Marvin seems to decide early on if he can hit his shot. If his shot isn't falling, Marvin doesn't do the things to get him going: drive the lane, get a little closer, or post up. A little more "selfish" MW would be good for the Hawks.

I still think one of MW's biggest problems is the complete lack of an offensive system. MW in a real system that is designed to get the most out of the players on the court would benefit him greatly (as well as the rest of the team). Imagine MW running in Adelman's more open court offense? How about with some of the systems that Flip Saunders runs? Each of those systems would be more conducive to what MW can do, instead of iso after iso for JJ.

[Admin]

I agree, Marvin also needs to demand the ball, even when he's not shooting well. All the good scorers know you have to shoot your way out of a slump. Marvin seems to decide early on if he can hit his shot. If his shot isn't falling, Marvin doesn't do the things to get him going: drive the lane, get a little closer, or post up. A little more "selfish" MW would be good for the Hawks.

I still think one of MW's biggest problems is the complete lack of an offensive system. MW in a real system that is designed to get the most out of the players on the court would benefit him greatly (as well as the rest of the team). Imagine MW running in Adelman's more open court offense? How about with some of the systems that Flip Saunders runs? Each of those systems would be more conducive to what MW can do, instead of iso after iso for JJ.

I like that ... a "selfish" MW is definitely what we need to see. For whatever reason he just doesn't have that mentality. Maybe because of the way he was raised and because he is such a well mannered and polite kid that he doesn't want to upset his teammates or something, but hopefully that will change as he gets a little older.

That's a good point about the offensive system. For all the support and backing I have given Woody I would never argue that he runs a well defined system. Hopefully that will be something that changes with time and the sooner the better!

[crimedog]

This is the way i've always felt. Much like Smoove's post up game last year, Marvin won't be a major 3 point threat just because he shot a bunch of them one summer. Shooting them in a game is much different or every player would become a threat. Marvin's 3 point game is likely to look like Smoove's.

But if he can be a consistent performer from 18' in to the basket then he can become a go to guy. He's basically the same size as Karl Malone (i know Malone was strong as an ox), he should be working on that game plus being able to take people off the dribble.

I think the fact that Malone was strong as an ox was a big part of his game and means the Marv is not "basically the same size" as him. Malone probably had 40lbs of muscle on Marv. He was one of the strongest players in the history of the league.

Marv is basically the same size as Rashard Lewis.

Anyway, the meat of the article. I think that Marv developing his dribble game would be as much of a "new wrinkle" as extending his range. Marv's drive are almost exclusively off his defender recovering, he gets fouled as the second defender runs to get back in position. Its not like Marv is catching the ball with his man on him and then breaking him down with a crossover or jab step then finishing over a center ready to block his shot.

I'd like to see Marv better at driving, posting, and shooting but if I had to choose one it would be shooting because I think that Joe and Josh (and Al when he's being defended by a slow center) should be the ones slashing and Marv and Bibby can nail open jumpers off that.

Marv becoming a good post player or ball handler would take as much, if not more work as extending his range another couple of feet. Strengthening his game would be developing that midrange J into as consistent of a weapon as a guy like Dirk, KG, Rip, or even Rudy Gay has.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have hate for Marv like many here. He can't help where BK took him, I think he does work hard, at least hard enough for me to not criticize that about him. I just don't see him as being ready to be a creator in the offense.

[Swish]

The comparison to Mailman is invalid as crimedog said. I hadn't thought of it but I like the comp to Rashard Lewis. Nearly identical except Rashard has a more developed 3, obviously. In Lewis' 3rd year he averaged 14/7. If Marvin's career trajectory follow's his I would be pleased. Except the lucrative contract, of course.

Can we stop talking about Woodson's offense? Its nonexistent other than obviously, hey, maybe if I toss it to Joe he can score.

Does anyone here think MW has a killer instinct inside him? I personally don't, but, we'll see.

[HawkItus]

the more I read the more I'm wondering if we might be seeing the perfect storm on Marvin this year. It's his 4th year. His primary comp for minutes is off the roster. He is the only player on the squad in a contract year. He will be surrounded by more 5+ year vets in the starting line up than any of our young guys. It's going to be interesting to say the least.

[frosgrim]

the more I read the more I'm wondering if we might be seeing the perfect storm on Marvin this year. It's his 4th year. His primary comp for minutes is off the roster. He is the only player on the squad in a contract year. He will be surrounded by more 5+ year vets in the starting line up than any of our young guys. It's going to be interesting to say the least.

You're right if Marvin is going to be a big time player, this is the year that we have see it. Marvin's the right guy to have out there with Bibby IMO. Bibs can throw some bad passes, but he does see the court well. He can deliver the ball where Marvin needs it.

I really hope that Woodson lets all 5 guys be involved in the offense this year. The JJ isos have just got to stop and the offense become more diverse. That said, I have absolutely no faith that Woodson will change his offensive philosophy.

[crimedog]

You're right if Marvin is going to be a big time player, this is the year that we have see it. Marvin's the right guy to have out there with Bibby IMO. Bibs can throw some bad passes, but he does see the court well. He can deliver the ball where Marvin needs it.

I really hope that Woodson lets all 5 guys be involved in the offense this year. The JJ isos have just got to stop and the offense become more diverse. That said, I have absolutely no faith that Woodson will change his offensive philosophy.

Yeah, the thing is that JJ isn't a strictly iso player. He isn't someone like Larry Hughes who has trouble playing off the ball. Joe shot 47% from 3 when he was playing off the ball in PHX. We should be able to use Joe's iso skills at the end of games and during the middle of games we should be attacking the hoop with Smith and Horford.